[OB] The champion of odium

[Stark]

15 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Part of the reason I read fantasy is because despite how things get very, very, very bad, you usually get a payoff in the end where the bad guy is defeated.

I agree completely.  Seeing how close things get to the fire, or sometimes how deep into the fire, before they can be pulled back from the brink is part of the appeal.  Sometimes watching things slip over the edge mid series helps build to a better end.  Very rarely do I read something with the expectation that everything will go wrong, and things end worse than they began by series end.  And I feel Brandon is more the author to have things end well overall, if dramatically changed.

 

However, I don't think that Odium is the Cosmere's ultimate bad guy.  Roshar's maybe.  And he definitely is a Cosmere wide menace.  But he was named, and brought to be the face of the Rosharan conflict far too soon to be the ultimate villain.  It would begin to feel a bit tired if he were the villain for everything after this point.  So I think Odium, such as he is, will cease to be a villain after Stormlight is concluded.  We have the hints being dropped of the master manipulator Bavadin, Trell (maybe also Bavadin) and the possibility of something worse still beyond Odium in later books.  But Odium was unmasked far too early in the Cosmere as a whole to be the Cosmere's Dark one, and he is far too straightforwardly destructive for me to see him as the ultimate villain.

 

We do know that the shard, Odium, survives this conflict, but that it may change hands.  But I also have trouble seeing him as the Thanos, Darkseid, Galactos, Necros, or any other universe level villain you care to compare him to for the Cosmere.

 

Also, woohoo! Post number 300!

[Daishi5]

2 hours ago, Stark said:

I agree completely.  Seeing how close things get to the fire, or sometimes how deep into the fire, before they can be pulled back from the brink is part of the appeal.  Sometimes watching things slip over the edge mid series helps build to a better end.  Very rarely do I read something with the expectation that everything will go wrong, and things end worse than they began by series end.  And I feel Brandon is more the author to have things end well overall, if dramatically changed.

 

However, I don't think that Odium is the Cosmere's ultimate bad guy.  Roshar's maybe.  And he definitely is a Cosmere wide menace.  But he was named, and brought to be the face of the Rosharan conflict far too soon to be the ultimate villain.  It would begin to feel a bit tired if he were the villain for everything after this point.  So I think Odium, such as he is, will cease to be a villain after Stormlight is concluded.  We have the hints being dropped of the master manipulator Bavadin, Trell (maybe also Bavadin) and the possibility of something worse still beyond Odium in later books.  But Odium was unmasked far too early in the Cosmere as a whole to be the Cosmere's Dark one, and he is far too straightforwardly destructive for me to see him as the ultimate villain.

 

We do know that the shard, Odium, survives this conflict, but that it may change hands.  But I also have trouble seeing him as the Thanos, Darkseid, Galactos, Necros, or any other universe level villain you care to compare him to for the Cosmere.

 

Also, woohoo! Post number 300!

I don't know, he is literally a god of hate, driven to hate and create hatred among people.  Seems kind of ultimate villiany level there.

[Stark]

38 minutes ago, Daishi5 said:

Seems kind of ultimate villiany level there.

I don't know. "I hate everything and everyone.  Therefore I must destroy it all." Seems a little one-note, a little too straightforward and lacking nuance to be the villain of an entire universe.

 

Yes, he does have phenomenal cosmic power, but much like Jafar, he managed to get trapped in a lamp.  Only his lamp is a planet, and he has agency beyond some minion making wishes.  The fact that he only possesses 1/16th the sum total of the deific being that preceded him would seem to indicate that the Cosmere is capable of generating a cosmic villain level event on an order of magnitude much greater than 1/16th.  Especially seeing as we already have a positive force containing 1/8th revealed before we ever heard the title Odium, or the name Rayse, even if that positive force has a great deal of trouble taking action.

 

I just don't buy that Odium is going to be the main villain of the Cosmere.  It would be like getting the mastermind villain pulling all the strings revealed early in a tv show, but having to wade through 10 seasons of minions before the heroes can do anything about it, and then finding out he will only be truly defeated in a spin-off.  Rayse has just been revealed and made directly relevant far too early in this 20-30 years worth of upcoming book releases to be the Ultimate Force of Destruction and Evil in the Whole Cosmere.

 

But that's just my opinion, and I could well be wrong.

[bo.montier]

I guess I hadn't considered there to be a primary villain of the whole Cosmere before. If there is, I bet it's not even a Shard at all, and it 100% has to do with Hoid. We still don't know why or how adonalsium split, do we? If there was a specific individual or group behind that, seems like their main goal would be chaos.

[Dreamstorm]

21 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

I guess I hadn't considered there to be a primary villain of the whole Cosmere before. If there is, I bet it's not even a Shard at all, and it 100% has to do with Hoid. We still don't know why or how adonalsium split, do we? If there was a specific individual or group behind that, seems like their main goal would be chaos.

Chaos would be a great shard name though!  (Maybe too close in effect to Ruin?  Though disorder does not necessarily equal destruction as disorder can actually lead to creation, e.g. evolution.) 

[Stark]

I was discussing my pet theory that Shallan would become the champion with a friend offline, and he made an interesting point.  On top of the constant talk of who and what she doesn't hate, and Odium's history of influencing her family, Shallan creates personas to hide behind because her basic self can't handle it.  She hates herself, so she creates these shadows of different versions of her to hide behind.

 

Currently, she only has two of these shadows.  But as her needs grow, how many people would be shocked to find her creating nine such shadows?  Pattern has already said that something is wrong with them...

 

Also of note, both of her existing shadows are based on people who influenced her, who she is convinced are dead.  Tyn and Jasnah.  A bit macabre....

[bo.montier]

36 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Chaos would be a great shard name though!  (Maybe too close in effect to Ruin?  Though disorder does not necessarily equal destruction as disorder can actually lead to creation, e.g. evolution.) 

I can see how Ruin becomes a shard, but not chaos. Of course, I'm looking at attributes of what I think of as God (christian here) and breaking it into pieces, which gives you weird things like ruin apart from preservation and hatred apart from honor. You get some awesome things, like preservation and cultivation, but to me, they would lack as well. If Mercy were a shard, for instance, and it lacked hatred or honor, how would the evil be punished? The shard might want to be purely merciful all the time. We've already seen discussion about how preservation NEEDS ruin, otherwise nothing ever would die.
 

So hatred/odium makes sense as an attribute of "god" whereas Chaos doesn't. Chaos is created when god's attributes are split up.

 

Again, this is all my understanding of the shards, which I fully expect to be incorrect. Just how I think about it.

[bo.montier]

5 minutes ago, Stark said:

Currently, she only has two of these shadows.  But as her needs grow, how many people would be shocked to find her creating nine such shadows?  Pattern has already said that something is wrong with them...

 

My god. Her personas being shadows, that's genius.

[Dreamstorm]

10 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

I can see how Ruin becomes a shard, but not chaos. Of course, I'm looking at attributes of what I think of as God (christian here) and breaking it into pieces, which gives you weird things like ruin apart from preservation and hatred apart from honor. You get some awesome things, like preservation and cultivation, but to me, they would lack as well. If Mercy were a shard, for instance, and it lacked hatred or honor, how would the evil be punished? The shard might want to be purely merciful all the time. We've already seen discussion about how preservation NEEDS ruin, otherwise nothing ever would die.
 

So hatred/odium makes sense as an attribute of "god" whereas Chaos doesn't. Chaos is created when god's attributes are split up.

 

Again, this is all my understanding of the shards, which I fully expect to be incorrect. Just how I think about it.

I will have to think about this...  I was more focused on what attribute I think would make an interesting story (to me), and I could see where Chaos, and the moral ambiguity of its effects, would be intriguing.  The more I think about it, I don't really understand what constitutes a "divine attribute"... using the dictionary definition an attribute is "a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something".  I would argue that any God (who presumably is a force of creation) would require both Chaos and Order to accomplish that purpose.  Chaos and order combined is life - and they are necessary for life to be maintained.  But I'm not really religious, so instead of "God" I think "Life Force", which could skew my view.  (And I know Brandon is Mormon, which is more akin to Christianity, so he'd likely be more in line with your views.)

Elantris is next on my list, and I'm curious how Dominion is treated.  Same with Ambition in Shadows for Silence etc.  So far the shards I've encountered can be easily categorized as "good" or "bad" (I know we're supposed to see Ruin and Preservation are needed for balance, but Ruin was totally the bad guy in Mistborn Era 1!)  I don't think you can say the same with Dominion or Ambition, but perhaps I'll have a different view after reading those books.  Anyway, massive digression from Odium's champion...

15 minutes ago, Stark said:

Also of note, both of her existing shadows are based on people who influenced her, who she is convinced are dead.  Tyn and Jasnah.  A bit macabre....

Not to mention she killed Tyn and could feel like she killed Jasnah (by dissolving the boat/setting it on fire - Navani accuses her of this at first.)  Jasnah coming back into Shallan's life sooner rather than later would make me feel better...

[Stark]

17 hours ago, bo.montier said:

My god. Her personas being shadows, that's genius.

And the last time we saw someone who had problems with Shadows of their Self, Paalm went nuts.  Just saying.

 

I realize this may be unlikely, she only has two personas/shadows currently.  As long as Oathbringer may be, getting up to a full complement of nine would be difficult by books end, unless each additional shadow is easier to create.  And they do unsettle Pattern. 

[StormingTexan]

43 minutes ago, Stark said:

And the last time we saw someone who had problems with Shadows of their Self, Paalm went nuts.  Just saying.

 

I realize this may be unlikely, she only has two personas/shadows currently.  As long as Oathbringer may be, getting up to a full complement of nine would be difficult by books end, unless each additional shadow is easier to create.  And they do unsettle Pattern. 

She doesn't have to get to 9 by the end of the book though. I fell like the show down with Odium's champion is more of a book 5 deal. 

[bo.montier]

26 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

She doesn't have to get to 9 by the end of the book though. I fell like the show down with Odium's champion is more of a book 5 deal. 

I would expect to see development in how many shadows she has, though, if this is the direction it's going. I would also expect us to know who is going to be the champion by the end of book 4, at the latest, with a pretty good idea by the end of book 3, but that's just because book 5 would be building up to the confrontation as the climax.

[Calderis]

You guys are putting to much emphasis on the personas as these "shadows." we were told straight out that the shadows in the vision were figurative representation of The Unmade. As long as Shallan is bonded to Pattern, she's somewhat protected from Unmade influence, just as Dalinar is protected from the thrill. 

[Blacksmithki]

I seem to remember it being Dalinar saying that, in which case you can't always take that as fact, he would have been assuming the most probable option to him, the unmade.

if it was actually the stormfather saying that then yes, it is almost certainly the unmade.

[Calderis]

46 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

I seem to remember it being Dalinar saying that, in which case you can't always take that as fact, he would have been assuming the most probable option to him, the unmade.

if it was actually the stormfather saying that then yes, it is almost certainly the unmade.

Dalinar mentioned the nine shadows, and the Stormfather immediately responded about the Unmade. 

[Toaster Retribution]

Shallan creating nine shadows of herself would have more Odium-implications than the Unmade though. Nine is the number of Odium. I am not saying that everyone associated with the number nine in some way will automatically be controlled by Odium, but I do think that it is a possible way for Brandon to foreshadow stuff. We should not be entirely dismissive of the Shallans nine shadows idea. 

Crazy development of the idea, but what if each shadow Shallan creates will summon an Unmade. People are currently suspecting that an Unmade is the copycat murderer. Well, what if that Unmade is summoned by Veils shadow, which is the con woman/theif character. Veil is pretty twisted, and so are these murders. If this is true, and the copycat murders are an effect of Veil, then we might soon encounter an Unmade summoned by Brightness Radiant.

[Stark]

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

Dalinar mentioned the nine shadows, and the Stormfather immediately responded about the Unmade. 

Very true.  But at the same time, Stormfather did not actually see what Dalinar saw.  Dalinar went beyond the programmed limits of the holodeck and saw something new, that Stormfather could not.  Dalinar had to describe the champion, the red eyes, the golden light and the nine shadows.  The fact of the matter is that there are nine unmade.  And the possibility that all nine would bind the champion into some super dark radiant, with access to all the surges, does exist.  But that does not mean that is what Dalinar saw and described to the Stormfather.  That was just the Stormfather extrapolating the second hand data Dalinar provided.  Most likely, accurately, but with room for error.

 

Except the idea that the champion would bind all nine unmade and become a Fullborn-esque Radiant.  That was me extrapolating to a worst case scenario.

 

The possibility does still exist that Shallan's persona's could become the shadows, especially seeing as I don't think Shallan has given an official name for these personalities. And @Toaster Retribution's idea that the persona's could attract the unmade to Shallan, to bind her and kill or incapacitate Pattern through subtle villainy, is pretty cool too.  It melds both concepts into a conceivable plot path.  To me at least.

[bo.montier]

1 hour ago, Stark said:

Very true.  But at the same time, Stormfather did not actually see what Dalinar saw.  Dalinar went beyond the programmed limits of the holodeck and saw something new, that Stormfather could not.  Dalinar had to describe the champion, the red eyes, the golden light and the nine shadows.  The fact of the matter is that there are nine unmade.  And the possibility that all nine would bind the champion into some super dark radiant, with access to all the surges, does exist.  But that does not mean that is what Dalinar saw and described to the Stormfather.  That was just the Stormfather extrapolating the second hand data Dalinar provided.  Most likely, accurately, but with room for error.

 

Except the idea that the champion would bind all nine unmade and become a Fullborn-esque Radiant.  That was me extrapolating to a worst case scenario.

At this point we don't know that the unmade can bond, and if they can, what those bonds will do, correct? If they do bond, would it be similar to the nahel bond, or would it be the same as other sprend bond with the listeners, creating a form?

[dantlee]

While this doesn't necessarily fit in with the "nine shadows" part (and personally, I think the correct answer there is the most straightforward one - the 9 shadows simply represent the unmade), my favorite theory about Odium's champion is that it is Oroden. 

I should note that the part about Odium's champion being a baby isn't my theory originally, and I unfortunately forget where I first read it in the forums (otherwise I'd link to it and give proper credit), but essentially it's based on this death rattle:  

Quote

"I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. ”

— Collected on Shashanan 1173, 23 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a darkeyed youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note.

If Kaladin is Honor's champion, wouldn't this fit perfectly? Based on everything we know about Kaladin, and his renewed oath to protect Oroden in particular, if he were faced with the choice of killing a defenseless babe to "gain us further breath to draw" (i.e. time, which the Stormfather revealed is all that the forces of Honor can gain by defeating Odium's champion), I find it very unlikely that he would kill the child even if that meant dooming all of humanity. I also subscribe to the theory that Odium actually wins on Roshar, making the Stormlight Archive a particularly tragic series - but an incredibly important one for the events of the cosmere, as Brandon has made clear on multiple occasions. 

Edited October 6, 2017 by dantlee

[Sirscott13]

Shallan does have her personas, but I think the big problem is she’s letting her soul change as she puts on these personas. She’s leaving Shallan behind which I think is what pattern is worried about. She is just gonna start swapping between personas but never be Shallan. Meaning she’s changing her soul and maybe resolving the bond? As far as her being a champion I don’t think it fits, but I could be wrong... I think the shadows more represent Odiums super-Spren like the one that makes the Thrill. 

 

kaladin definately wouldnt be the champion, but I think he is in line to be the champion of honor, we will have to see. 

 

Dalinar could be an interesting candidate for the champion for both honor and odium but I’d lean honor because he is bonded to the storm father and seems to be completely devoted to honor, more likely his past self would have been a candidate but he is not much of one now. 

Ashton I could be a candidate but this reminds me too much of Marsh as Ruins “champion” and I hope Brandon wouldn’t go down that path. 

As far as candidates go though I’m still leaning towards Szeth, He is unstable to the point of insanity (as in influencable from the cognitive realm), he has a hatred for many things including himself and is bound by his own code similar to Odium, and has a blade that is unlike any shardblade or honorblade, but can compete with them. Lastly I’d lean Szeth because he seems unlikely. I’m not saying he’d knowingly choose to serve Odium, but rather just be corrupted to the point that he doesn’t know what he’s doing. We’ve already seen him be manipulated a lot like from Mr. T. It just fits to me... 

 

 

but I could be wrong!

 

[The One Who Connects]

On 10/6/2017 at 8:08 AM, bo.montier said:

At this point we don't know that the unmade can bond, and if they can, what those bonds will do, correct? If they do bond, would it be similar to the Nahel bond, or would it be the same as other Spren bond with the listeners, creating a form?

Unmade can bond. What that bond would do is.. unknown. Whether you can bond more than one is.. uncertain, but likely.

Quote

Question

Can the Unmade be bonded?

Brandon Sanderson

Wow...plausible. Er, possible, I should say.

Footnote

Does this imply that the Unmade are Spren?

 

[bo.montier]

On 10/8/2017 at 6:35 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Unmade can bond. What that bond would do is.. unknown. Whether you can bond more than one is.. uncertain, but likely.

 

Thank you for the WoB to clear that up.

[joesleepsalot]

Everyone seems to be working off the presupposition that Odium's champion is someone who's currently alive on Roshar and is in their 20s/30s. Dalinar saw Odium's champ in a vision from several centuries prior to the present day. Either that vision was was 100% prophetic, OR the champion already exists.

Option 1: The champion with 9 shadows is an immortal counterpart to Jezrien, with 9 supporting evil heralds.

Option 2: The champion/shadow combination is literally the modern heralds, who've gone off the deep end and now serve Odium. Potential flaws to this theory are a.) Nale's repentance and b.) Taln had no part in the betrayal.

Option 3: (most plausible in my opinion). The nine shadows are the nine other monarchs of Roshar. Sanderson is a Mormon, and the Mormons also use the Bible.... a lot of his theology finds its way into the cosmere books via religious dialogue. Part of the end-times views held by Mormons and other Christians in general is that nations are symbolized in visions and/or dreams. We see this specifically in the book of Daniel and Revelation (Bible, not the Book of Mormon). Also, the Bible talks about the last days being full of massive deception and massive quantities of death. With this is mind, I think this theory best captures Sanderson's intent with the nine shadows. a.) the deception: we as readers are shocked to see what Kaladin is seeing. We expected red eyes and mayhem. Obviously, there's literally a global deception. Either this time the Desolation is different, or we were lied to about the previous ones. Kaladin is already starting to see the glaringly obvious factual mismatches just by being around the Parshmen. The other monarchs are clearly seeing it as well. B.) the nations: aren't there nine nations/kingdoms on Roshar besides Alethkar? They're unanimously against alethkar. The only one who isn't is Mr. T., and we all know he's not on the side of Dalinar and Alethkar. This desolation will be so dangerous because humanity will have joined the forces of Odium against only 1 nation, before being destroyed by their voidbringer allies.

Option 4: (I don't want this one to be true but I'm convinced it is the one we will have to deal with) kaladin. anyone else, to include non-villainous candidates, is too easy and predictable. Kaladin has legitimate reasons to hate. He's been built up, and literally everyone thinks he's a permanent good guy. Plus let's not forget that from his point of view (and the reader's) the "voidbringers" aren't evil. They're just liberated people. I recall reading somewhere either on this website or in the books that they are regular creatures, but that they are specifically susceptible to the influence of Odium. It might be a WoB. We know that the voidspren is particularly interested in him, and we know that kaladin is being watched by Odium (I think from WoK). Literally everyone knows who Kaladin is, and everyone knows how BA he is. I don't think anyone could match him in a fight in the entire cosmere.... people say Denth, but Denth got owned. Anyone who could take him from any other series has met an untimely end. If you were Odium, and you couldn't pick a herald, which one human in the cosmere would you seek to corrupt and make your champion? Seems pretty common sense to me

option 5: dalinar. I believe we'd had enough hints, especially in OB, that Renarin isn't his son by blood. I believe his wife's betrayal was infidelity. Now that he remembers things, it'll start to turn him to the dark side just like Anakin.

As far as combating the champion, I've identified some options:

wildcard 1: the 10 heralds. And when they will come forth to humanity, identify themselves, own up to what they've done, and lend a hand

Wildcard 2: the storm father. Any questions that anyone has could by answered by him. Sanderson knows this so he doesn't utilize him often. If we actually had a scene where Dalinar grilled him for like 30 minutes, then the series would have no more secrets. Questions about the heralds, the nightwatcher, unsplintering Honor, etc. Can the stormfather communicate with Harmony? You get the gyst. 

Wildcard 3: jasnah. And our favorite survivor of Hathsin. 

Wildcard 4: hoid. Let's not forget his talk with Dalinar. Who's now bonded to the big Spren. I think when they cross paths again, dalinars Spren will have some words to say/input. I'm curious as to hoid's responses. This series HAS to become cosmere-focused pretty soon, I think it'll start happening in this book. 

Edited October 23, 2017 by joesleepsalot

[scifan]

If.... Kaladin were to really become Odium's champion I'm uncertain I would continue reading this series. That would severely go against the grain of what I'd expected. That being said, I could see him dying but that would be rather similar in one aspect to the Mistborn series.

I'm uncertain what to expect at this point.

[maxal]

26 minutes ago, joesleepsalot said:

option 5: dalinar. I believe we'd had enough hints, especially in OB, that Renarin isn't his son by blood. I believe his wife's betrayal was infidelity. Now that he remembers things, it'll start to turn him to the dark side just like Anakin.

It has been confirmed by WoB both Adolin and Renarin was Dalinar's legitimate children. I am curious where you've got the impression Renarin was not Dalinar's son.