[OB] Who's the Copycat Murderer?

[TheDarkDesperado]

Not much for me to add here, I find the idea of Adolin doing it under influence to be plausible but something makes me hesitate, the Ghostbloods would be my best bet, we know they're in Urithiru and while we don't yet have a motive it's possible that the victim was a part of a rival secret faction like the Sons of Honor. Although if it is them then copying a high profile murder seems risky, it could draw too much attention although it could make it harder to solve since much time will likely be spent trying to find a link. I expect the next batch of chapters will give us something more to go off of.

[Siaun Sanche]

I also tend to think that Ialai ordered the killing, and I doubt out of revenge. (He's a named character, but not somebody who was particularly close to Dalinar or Adolin.)

Adolin killing Sadeas is (IMO) a big danger to Dalinar's position. Dalinar has a fancy new title, Highking, but to the degree that people follow him it's because they believe in his character and his judgment. Now Dalinar's son has murdered one of Dalinar's political enemies, and (quite by accident) everything that Dalinar has done about it since then appears designed to cover it up. Once Adolin's involvement is revealed, Dalinar doesn't seem like a good guy who is trying his best for the people of Roshar, but a typical amoral lighteyes with a tendency towards pompous declarations of principles. At best, he'll have to cast Adolin aside, and I don't think that would completely quiet the rumors about him.

Ialai doesn't know that it was Adolin specifically, but it won't take much for her to figure out the general score: the murder of Sadeas must have been committed by somebody close to the Kholins, because they had the biggest reason to hate him. So having 'the killer' turn on the retainers of other highprinces is designed to undermine Dalinar further, building the case that the Blackthorn has seized power through assassination and intimidation and can't be trusted. How many people will really believe that Adolin committed the one murder but not the others? This also hinges on the real killer being revealed, of course, but based on Ialai's characterization to date it would make sense that she already has an idea who she would frame for this if the real killer fails to materialize. 

[Varenus]

3 hours ago, Harry the Heir said:

I also tend to think that Ialai ordered the killing, and I doubt out of revenge. (He's a named character, but not somebody who was particularly close to Dalinar or Adolin.)

Adolin killing Sadeas is (IMO) a big danger to Dalinar's position. Dalinar has a fancy new title, Highking, but to the degree that people follow him it's because they believe in his character and his judgment. Now Dalinar's son has murdered one of Dalinar's political enemies, and (quite by accident) everything that Dalinar has done about it since then appears designed to cover it up. Once Adolin's involvement is revealed, Dalinar doesn't seem like a good guy who is trying his best for the people of Roshar, but a typical amoral lighteyes with a tendency towards pompous declarations of principles. At best, he'll have to cast Adolin aside, and I don't think that would completely quiet the rumors about him.

Ialai doesn't know that it was Adolin specifically, but it won't take much for her to figure out the general score: the murder of Sadeas must have been committed by somebody close to the Kholins, because they had the biggest reason to hate him. So having 'the killer' turn on the retainers of other highprinces is designed to undermine Dalinar further, building the case that the Blackthorn has seized power through assassination and intimidation and can't be trusted. How many people will really believe that Adolin committed the one murder but not the others? This also hinges on the real killer being revealed, of course, but based on Ialai's characterization to date it would make sense that she already has an idea who she would frame for this if the real killer fails to materialize. 

Very true, but I would also like to point out that Ialai is not the only person who would want to discredit Dalinar. Mr.T and the Diagramists would be in prime position to seize power if Dalinar is not careful. Honestly, I think that the Diagramists have more to gain than the Ghostbloods do, especially considering that Mr.T is already on his way to Urithiru. 

Also, Kalami seems like a good candidate for a  Diagamist:

She did not take leave after her husband died

She was there at Sadeas' death

She has studied Vorin theory

She was the one communicating with foreign monarchs during Dalinar's attempt to unify them

And, look how suspicious this is: 

Quote

“Our ultimate goal is the preservation of all Roshar,” Dalinar said softly. “We’ve seen the cost of division in our ranks. Because of it, we failed to stop the Everstorm. But that was just the trial run, the sparring before the real fight. To face the Desolation, I will find a way to do what my ancestor the Sunmaker failed to do through conquest. I will unify Roshar.”

Kalami gasped softly. No man had ever united the entire continent— not during the Shin invasions, not during the height of the Hierocracy, not during the Sunmaker’s conquest. This was his task, he was increasingly certain. The enemy would unleash his worst terrors: the Unmade and the Voidbringers. That phantom champion in the dark armor.

  She did not gasp because she is surprised to hear Dalinar propose such a lofty goal, but she is surprised to hear such a clear mirroring of Mr.T's own goals.

[Siaun Sanche]

I gotta be honest, her reaction didn't strike me as notably suspicious, nor does her decision to work despite the fact that her husband died. Maybe it adds up to something, but nothing about that jumps out at me yet.

As for Ialai versus the Diagramists, can't it be both? I don't anticipate things between Taravangian and Dalinar to come to a head in book 3 (since surely what you would want for story purposes is all out war between Jah Keved and Alethkar and neither country is ready for that yet), but Taravangian has every reason to support those who would bring Dalinar down in order to keep Alethkar off balance. And with Szeth out of the picture for the moment Taravangian will likely have to change up his strategy in any case.

[scienter]

I think that Ialai is behind the second murder because of her conversation with her husband in WOR:

Quote

"Dalinar wants to play politician now, which is unsurprising. He has always secretly wanted to be his brother. Fortunately for us, Dalinar is no good at this sort of thing. His proclamation will alienate the others. He will push the highprinces, and they'll take up arms against him, fracturing the kingdom. And then, with blood at my feet and Dalinar's own sword in my hand, I will forge a new Alethkar from flame and tears."

"What if, instead, he succeeds?"

"That, my dear, is when your assassins will be of use."   (p. 90)

I don't think that Iaiai is attempting to avenge her husband's death. I think she's employing Sadeas' Plan B (assassination) in order to undermine Dalinar's political ambitions/influence.  

[Alderant]

On 9/15/2017 at 10:02 PM, maxal said:

Yes, you are right. Everyone within Dalinar's circle was willing to ignore the murder and to move onto more important issues. I suspect it lured Adolin into a false sense of security thinking he got away with it. How relief he must have been to see everyone pleased with the murder? His greatest wishes were exhausted: he can keep his secret. Nobody has to know, he can remain forever in denial, he may never have to deal with it. I however agree people within the opposite factions were so willing to forget. Worst, the fact Dalinar seems so not pro-active at finding the culprit might give the impression he did order it. Hence, the ploy to destabilize Dalinar or, at the very least, divert his attention from whatever else they may be planning to remove him from power. Kadash's warning was real: I suspect the are those working with the Ardents to discredit Dalinar.

Yes, the murdered man was an ally. This is precisely the point: have Dalinar's allies think he does not have the situation into control. Make them think they were wrong to support him. Switch their alliance.

I can get behind the second murder being "revenge" or a "warning", but I tend to think there are other reasons behind it. I do agree it may be the end goal is not to make Adolin trip, but it may end up being the surprising unpredictable effect much to whoever is calling the shots delight. Either way, if it is Ialai then I expect it is part of a larger plan.

On 9/24/2017 at 4:21 PM, Harry the Heir said:

Ialai doesn't know that it was Adolin specifically, but it won't take much for her to figure out the general score: the murder of Sadeas must have been committed by somebody close to the Kholins, because they had the biggest reason to hate him. So having 'the killer' turn on the retainers of other highprinces is designed to undermine Dalinar further, building the case that the Blackthorn has seized power through assassination and intimidation and can't be trusted. How many people will really believe that Adolin committed the one murder but not the others? This also hinges on the real killer being revealed, of course, but based on Ialai's characterization to date it would make sense that she already has an idea who she would frame for this if the real killer fails to materialize.

Everything about this second murder speaks of psychological warfare. This isn't just a revenge murder, this isn't just a warning--a simple dead body with a message would be sufficient to prove that point. Instead, we have a murder that is done in exactly the same manner, with exactly the same markings, and referencing a line in the conversation that only Sadeas's killer, and Sadeas, would know. Ialai has been shown to be quite adept at rooting out information, and even Sadeas described her as particularly cunning and ruthless. She would have known about his plan to discredit Dalinar upon arrival in Urithiru, and honestly, Sadeas and she probably had a contingency plan in place in the event that Sadeas did end up dying. It's not far-fetched to think that Ialai deduced the information in a similar matter to what Harry said, and then put in motion a plan to discredit Dalinar as well as taunt the murderer.

And I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but Sadeas knew Adolin was a firebrand. He knew Adolin was hot-headed and prone to rash actions in the heat of the moment. He counted on that during Words of Radiance and took advantage of it for the 4-on-1 duel. What I wonder is that perhaps Sadeas set up his own murder at the hands of Adolin, using just the right words to egg Adolin on, and if so then it's possible that his own death was a possible path for his plan to take. I'm not sold on it, Sadeas was pretty power hungry, but it's not implausible for Sadeas or by extension, Ialai.

[Siaun Sanche]

On 9/29/2017 at 3:28 PM, Alderant said:

And I haven't seen this mentioned yet, but Sadeas knew Adolin was a firebrand. He knew Adolin was hot-headed and prone to rash actions in the heat of the moment. He counted on that during Words of Radiance and took advantage of it for the 4-on-1 duel. What I wonder is that perhaps Sadeas set up his own murder at the hands of Adolin, using just the right words to egg Adolin on, and if so then it's possible that his own death was a possible path for his plan to take. I'm not sold on it, Sadeas was pretty power hungry, but it's not implausible for Sadeas or by extension, Ialai.

During my WoR readthrough, I came across the scene where Ialai and Sadeas had a conversation about what a firebrand Sadeas is, and my thoughts started going in a similar direction. However, I'm reluctant to embrace the theory because his PoV sections paint the picture of a man who didn't want to die without having a legacy.

Edited September 30, 2017 by Harry the Heir
clarification

[Toaster Retribution]

On 2017-09-29 at 9:28 PM, Alderant said:

What I wonder is that perhaps Sadeas set up his own murder at the hands of Adolin, using just the right words to egg Adolin on, and if so then it's possible that his own death was a possible path for his plan to take. I'm not sold on it, Sadeas was pretty power hungry, but it's not implausible for Sadeas or by extension, Ialai.

I don´t see this at all. Sadeas was a selfish bastard, and while he was willing to die at some occasions (playing decoy at Gavilars murder) he would not want to do it now. He was far too selfish by this stage, and also afraid of dying without a legacy. He would not want to be remebered as "the douchebag who got stabbed in the eye". 

Furthermore, he appeared to be very scared when fighting Adolin.

[Ramza1890]

I would bet a member of the Diagram is more likely to be responsible than a Ghostblood. They want to sow discord and insurrection amongst those Dalinar is committed to leading to destabilize his power base and make it easier for Mr. T to assume command.

[Aleksiel]

The whole copycat murderer arc just got more mysterious - I no longer believe it to be Ialai or even about Sadeas. There is some sort of a magical element to it. 

[What's a Seawolf?]

After the most recent chapters, I think it has to be an Unmade.  (Perhaps feeding off strong feelings of hatred?)

[Nymeros]

10 minutes ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

After the most recent chapters, I think it has to be an Unmade.  (Perhaps feeding off strong feelings of hatred?)

Thiiiiiiissssssssss. It's an Unmade.

[Toaster Retribution]

Agreed with above posters. It is defenitely not Ialai, and there is something supernatural to it. I don't know if it is an Unmade directly, but something is very off. It could be someone under the influence of an Unmade/Odium too. Or something else entirely. Some kind of old monster that lurks inside Urithiru. 

For now, I'll be in the Unmade camp though. 

[kari-no-sugata]

This might explain Shallan's bit from the OB summary blurb:

Quote

Nestled in the mountains high above the storms, in the tower city of Urithiru, Shallan Davar investigates the wonders of the ancient stronghold of the Knights Radiant and unearths dark secrets lurking in its depths. 

It doesn't say "dark knowledge" but "dark secrets". 

I'm pretty happy about this. I'd always had a sneaky feeling that Shallan would get involved with countering things like the Unmade.

[Aleksiel]

Shouldn't Urithiru be safe from the enemy and thus the Unmade? Otherwise they would have been easily defeated I imagine. Only Rlain has some loose connection, but he wasn't exactly caught in the everstorm.

[Toaster Retribution]

14 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Shouldn't Urithiru be safe from the enemy and thus the Unmade? Otherwise they would have been easily defeated I imagine. Only Rlain has some loose connection, but he wasn't exactly caught in the everstorm.

The Almighty is gone. The Heralds are gone. The Radiants are gone. The storming sewer system is gone. It wouldn't surprise me if Urithirus protection against Odium & Friends is gone as well.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

I think it's a Herald. No evidence but the fact that the crimes are exact makes this feel supernatural to me.  

 

 

 

[Tarion]

Mraize just jumped to the top of my list. He's a hunter who uses the tools of the locals, and considers torture "fun". I can totally see him recreating murder techniques precisely.

[DSC01]

I'm thinking insane Dysian Aimian. I don't know why, exactly, but it seems to fit. Brandon already said that Edgedancer was important for bridging the gap between Nale's disposition in WoR and how he will behave when we see him in Oathbringer. Obviously, Edgedancer's introduction of a Dysian Aimian was to build up to their appearance in the main series, but maybe it was also a direct bridge to something in Oathbringer, just like Nale's Edgedancer arc. It would be a good idea, if you're going to introduce a completely foreign non-human race, to not have the only member we know of be a homicidal maniac. Otherwise, readers immediately get the impression that the entire race is basically made up of monsters, and as Kaladin's parshmen subplot is currently telling us, that is not what Brandon is trying to do with this series.

[The Invested Beard]

2 minutes ago, DSC01 said:

I'm thinking insane Dysian Aimian. I don't know why, exactly, but it seems to fit. Brandon already said that Edgedancer was important for bridging the gap between Nale's disposition in WoR and how he will behave when we see him in Oathbringer. Obviously, Edgedancer's introduction of a Dysian Aimian was to build up to their appearance in the main series, but maybe it was also a direct bridge to something in Oathbringer, just like Nale's Edgedancer arc. It would be a good idea, if you're going to introduce a completely foreign non-human race, to not have the only member we know of be a homicidal maniac. Otherwise, readers immediately get the impression that the entire race is basically made up of monsters, and as Kaladin's parshmen subplot is currently telling us, that is not what Brandon is trying to do with this series.

I'm getting more and more behind the Aimian angle. It seems to fit pretty well.

[Nymeros]

20 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

The Almighty is gone. The Heralds are gone. The Radiants are gone. The storming sewer system is gone. It wouldn't surprise me if Urithirus protection against Odium & Friends is gone as well.

Agreed.

18 minutes ago, SmurfAquamarineBodies said:

I think it's a Herald. No evidence but the fact that the crimes are exact makes this feel supernatural to me.  

 

That and the fact that we have a highborn killed and a lowborn as well. If it were multiple highborn you could make the case that it was a lighteyes putting a lot of resources and energy into some plot....but some random bar worker in an alley? Both crimes of passion being copied with almost perfect recreations? Yeahhhhhhhh, probably not natural.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Nymeros

[DiamondMind]

The fact that even the marks were exactly the same in each case of the double murder points to me towards a non-physical source. No one can be so perfect as to make strangling marks look identical, not even a Herald or an Aimian. If it's not the Unmade, which is probably the most likely case, then it's something else from the Cognitive Realm. 

[kari-no-sugata]

Quote

“He did,” Betha said. “That barmaid was strangled the exact same way as Rem, body dropped in the same position. Even had the marks of his ring scraping her chin like Rem did.” Her light brown eyes had a hollow cast to them, like she was staring at the body again, as it had been found. “Exact same marks. Uncanny.”

We'll have to see how much foreshadowing was packed into that one word...

[Toaster Retribution]

1 hour ago, DiamondMind said:

No one can be so perfect as to make strangling marks look identical, not even a Herald or an Aimian. 

I doubt this is a Herald (though I can suspect Ishar of anything right now). I don't think we should exclude Aimians though. We know little about them, and what we do know is wierd.

[DiamondMind]

7 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I doubt this is a Herald (though I can suspect Ishar of anything right now). I don't think we should exclude Aimians though. We know little about them, and what we do know is wierd.

I suppose. Though I don't see how an intelligent horde of cremlings could accomplish something like this, even if it had reason to.