Things Kaladin Hates

[Hafrigado]

Ok, so we were talking about this in The Child Surgeon and I thought I might as well give it its own thing. 

What are some unreasonable reasons for Kaladin to be depressed? Either ones that are actually mentioned in the book or ones that might happen. The only rules are that it has to be specific to Kaladin and it has to be unreasonable (people that were close to Kaladin dying is not unreasonable).

Edit: I should clarify, I really mean "unreasonable reasons for Kaladin to be grumpy". Depression implies that he needs to take medicine for it (if they have that). I don't think that's what Kaladin has because he looks for reasons to be sad. Whereas (if I understand it correctly) medically depressed people don't want to feel sad but do anyway.

Edit Edit: So I was wrong about some things and I decided to change the name of this thread. This is now just for things Kaladin does not like.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Hafrigado

[Seloun]

I'll go with the obvious - the rain:

Quote

The Weeping was a bad time for him. Days spent trapped indoors. A perpetual gloom in the sky that seemed to affect him more than it did others, leaving him lethargic and uncaring.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 943). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

It's not necessarily specific to Kaladin, but the way it affects him isn't that common, as mentioned in the passage, and note that very next chapter Shallan goes on about how happy she is about the rain:

Quote

Four days into the Weeping, and she still enjoyed the weather. Why did the soft sound of gentle rain make her feel more imaginative?

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 945). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

[Hafrigado]

4 minutes ago, Seloun said:

 

It's not necessarily specific to Kaladin, but the way it affects him isn't that common, as mentioned in the passage, and note that very next chapter Shallan goes on about how happy she is about the rain:

 

Oh! Let's add Unreasonable Reasons for Shallan to be Happy!

[Seloun]

Lighteyes (general attitude is understandable, Kaladin just takes it further and irrationally):

Quote

“Everything I’ve ever had, Teft,” Kaladin whispered, “the lighteyes have taken from me. My family, my brother, my friends. More. More than you can imagine. They see what I have, and they take it.” He held up his hand, and could faintly make out a few glowing wisps trailing from his skin, since he knew what to look for. “They’ll take it. If they can find out what I do, they’ll take it.”

“Now, how in Kelek’s breath would they do that?”

“I don’t know,” Kaladin said. “I don’t know, Teft, but I can’t help feeling panic when I think about it. I can’t let them have this, can’t let them take it— or you men— from me. We remain quiet about what I can do. No more talk of it.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 62). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Not being in a life-or-death struggle (it's like he gets bored, possibly keeping in with his 'always in motion' sort of theme):

Quote

“I mean earlier,” she said. “Rock and the others laughed. You didn’t. When you laughed during the weeks things were hard, I knew that you were forcing yourself to. I thought, maybe, once things got better . . .”

“I’ve got an entire battalion of bridgemen to keep track of now,” Kaladin said, eyes forward. “And a highprince to keep alive. I’m in the middle of a camp full of widows. I guess I don’t feel like laughing.”

“But things are better,” she said. “For you and your men. Think of what you did, what you accomplished.”

...

“I guess I’m just waiting,” Kaladin said.

“For what?”

“The thunder,” Kaladin said softly. “It always follows after the lightning. Sometimes you have to wait, but eventually it comes.”

...

“Something bad is going to happen,” Kaladin said. “Things can’t just continue to be good for me. That’s not how life is. It might have to do with those glyphs on Dalinar’s wall yesterday. They seemed like a countdown.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 88). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

New things (Kaladin is actually pretty conservative in many of his opinions; makes you wonder if he'd be so anti-light eyes under different circumstances):

Quote

“New technology,” Renarin said, still playing with his little metal box. “My aunt built that one herself. Every time I turn around, it seems the world has changed somehow.”

Kaladin grunted. I know how that feels. Part of him yearned to suck in the Light of that gemstone. A foolish move. There’d be enough in there to make him glow like a bonfire. He lowered his hands and strolled past Adolin’s chair.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 288). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Claustraphobia - okay, he's in prison, which is not a bad reason to be depressed, but e.g. Adolin seems to have handled it rather better. It affects him more than the hypothetical average person, anyway.

Quote

They took the spheres away at night, abandoning him to blackness. In the dark, he found himself imagining that he was someplace deep, with miles of stone above him and no pathway out, no hope of rescue. He could not conceive a worse death. Better to be gutted on the battlefield, looking up at the open sky as your life leaked away.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 746). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Getting people lost probably to their deaths. So this is not necessarily unreasonable, per se, but it has an interesting comment alluding to other events in Kaladin's past:

Quote

“I’ve killed us,” he whispered. “I took the lead, and I got us lost.”

“Well, I didn’t notice we were going the wrong way either. I wouldn’t have done any better.”

“I should have thought to have you map our progress from the start today. I was too confident.”

“It’s done,” she said. “If I’d been more clear with you about how well I could draw these plateaus, then you’d probably have made better use of my maps. I didn’t, and you didn’t know, so here we are. You can’t blame yourself for everything, right?”

He walked in silence.

“Uh, right?”

“It’s my fault.”

She rolled her eyes exaggeratedly. “You are really intent on beating yourself up, aren’t you?”

His father had said the same thing time and time again. It was who Kaladin was. Did they expect him to change?

“We’ll be fine,” Shallan said. “You’ll see.”

That darkened his mood further.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (pp. 848-849). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Good food:

Quote

Kaladin needed someone to talk to, and had spent the better part of the day searching for Wit. He hadn’t found the man, though he had broken down and bought some chouta from a lonely street vendor.

It had tasted good. That hadn’t helped his mood.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 976). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

[Hafrigado]

@Seloun nice 

 

I mean 

[+Extesian]

Online trolling

[Calderis]

Not being able to protect people from their own choices. 

Chouta. 

Not dying with everyone else. 

[Blightsong]

Kaladin's depression is confirmed to be clinical.

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

I had never seen a hero who had depression and I was like "I need to do a real, legitimate that it's not about their depression, they just have it" Does that make sense? Like whenever I read a book it is all about them having depression. And I'm like "No, your life is not about you having depression, your life-- that is part of your life but--" So it was very important to me that I get that one right.

As someone who has gone through clinical depression, Sanderson's depiction is spot on.

[Hafrigado]

32 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

Kaladin's depression is confirmed to be clinical.

As someone who has gone through clinical depression, Sanderson's depiction is spot on.

Alright, that's true, but do you think Kaladin's problem with chouta was actually because of his clinical depression or just him being grumpy?

Does clinical depression mean that a person is depressed regardless of their circumstance (because of chemical or whatever problems) or can a person become clinically depressed because of their situation (so maybe Kaladin was clinically depressed because Tien died but chouta had nothing to do with that)? If "clinically depressed" means both of those types and Kaladin is the second, then the best thing for Kaladin would be to talk to someone about and work through it?(as opposed to needing medication)

I genuinely want to know.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Hafrigado

[Fifth of Daybreak]

On 9/6/2017 at 2:27 AM, Hafrigado said:

Alright, that's true, but do you think Kaladin's problem with chouta was actually because of his clinical depression or just him being grumpy?

Does clinical depression mean that a person is depressed regardless of their circumstance (because of chemical or whatever problems) or can a person become clinically depressed because of their situation (so maybe Kaladin was clinically depressed because Tien died but chouta had nothing to do with that)? If "clinically depressed" means both of those types and Kaladin is the second, then the best thing for Kaladin would be to talk to someone about and work through it?(as opposed to needing medication)

I genuinely want to know.

I think you're looking for a far too simplified 'answer' to what depression  actually is. Depression is a little of the first, a little of the second, but the majority is an indescribable feeling of the world being muted from my own experiences. Outside events can certainly trigger depressive episodes, and having a depressive episode can make you sad despite happy circumstances. It can also make you ambivalent to even just regular things you'd normally take pleasure in: a sunrise, a good meal, a night out with friends. I've had days where I've laid on the floor and stared at the ceiling.

 

As for the best course of treatment, there's no clear answer. I've found a way to manage mine without medication, but when I was younger and trying to find out how to manage, both with and without meds, I had a few of my own 'Honor Chasm' moments. One of the times that most sticks out to me was on my birthday my Sophomore year. It happened to also be the night of our spring musical. Whenever I wasn't onstage i found a quiet area of the dressing room to cry, though I wouldn't have been able to tell you what was wrong. 

 

If you're looking for straight up and down answers on depression, I don't think you'll be satisfied. It isn't just a list of symptoms, but a net of inhibitions that affect your whole life.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak
Fighting my phone's autocorrect

[Hafrigado]

3 hours ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

If you're looking for straight up and down answers on depression, I don't think you'll be satisfied. It isn't just a list of symptoms, but a net of inhibitions that affect your whole life.

I realize depression in general is too wide to analyze as a whole, but we could analyze Kaladin's depression, right?

I think Kaladin is clinically depressed because of traumatic events (Tien dying) which causes him to contemplate suicide. But, separate from that, he's also grumpy (caused by a generally negative view of life) which leads him to not want to like chouta.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Hafrigado

[Blightsong]

57 minutes ago, Hafrigado said:

I realize depression in general is too wide to analyze as a whole, but we could analyze Kaladin's depression, right?

I think Kaladin is clinically depressed because of traumatic events (Tien dying) which causes him to contemplate suicide. But, separate from that, he's also grumpy (caused by a generally negative view of life) which leads him to not want to like chouta.

Kaladin was surely depressed before Tien's death. He mentions that he was often in a dark mood that only Tien could get him out of as a youth.

 

When it comes to the chouta, if you re-read that passage I think you will find that he has an inherent dislike of soulcast food as it reminds him of his slavery.

[Nathrangking]

On a lighter note Shallan's blatant attempts to get Adolin to like her.

Having his boots stolen.

 

[Hafrigado]

8 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

Kaladin was surely depressed before Tien's death. He mentions that he was often in a dark mood that only Tien could get him out of as a youth.

Yes, but I took that to mean he was being gloomy/moody.

Unlike "real" (I mean significant/serious) depression, I think that if he had tried to "look on the bright side" and "be happy" he would have been fine.

4 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

On a lighter note Shallan's blatant attempts to get Adolin to like her.

Having his boots stolen.

 

I don't know, those things would be annoying to me in real life. Nobody likes a gold digger or a thief.

[Calderis]

7 hours ago, Blightsong said:

Kaladin's depression is confirmed to be clinical.

As someone who has gone through clinical depression, Sanderson's depiction is spot on.

It absolutely is. 

You don't need a reason to hate everything. You just do. It can definitely feel like the things you're doing/witnessing are the reason, when in reality it's just a pervasive effect. 

Hate isn't really the right word, but I don't know what is a right word. In my experience, it's like a layering of sorrow and active dislike, smothered by apathy to the point that the first two are faint. 

4 minutes ago, Hafrigado said:

Yes, but I took that to mean he was being gloomy/moody.

Unlike "real" (I mean significant/serious) depression, I think that if he had tried to "look on the bright side" and "be happy" he would have been fine.

Doesn't work that way. He appears gloomy/moody because of the depression, and finds reasons for why he feels that way that aren't actually the cause. Everyone wants a reason for why they feel something. When there isn't a percievable reason, you find one. 

There's no "look on the bright side." there's just not. 

[Fifth of Daybreak]

I think you're looking at it backwards. Like Calderis was getting at, Kaladin isn't a moody guy who got depression after a bunch of messed up stuff happened to him. He's a guy with depression who ended having a bunch of messed up stuff happen to him but manages to survive the mental strain, just barely. 

 

You can't analyze depression in the way you want, at least in my experiences. I couldn't tell you why some days I'm fine and some days I lay in my apartment on the floor and stare at the ceiling for an extended period of time because none of the things I usually like sound good. Depression is 'unreasonable' period. It does not need reason or to be explained, it's in its nature not to be easily explained.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Hafrigado]

30 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It absolutely is. 

You don't need a reason to hate everything. You just do. It can definitely feel like the things you're doing/witnessing are the reason, when in reality it's just a pervasive effect. 

Hate isn't really the right word, but I don't know what is a right word. In my experience, it's like a layering of sorrow and active dislike, smothered by apathy to the point that the first two are faint. 

Doesn't work that way. He appears gloomy/moody because of the depression, and finds reasons for why he feels that way that aren't actually the cause. Everyone wants a reason for why they feel something. When there isn't a percievable reason, you find one. 

There's no "look on the bright side." there's just not. 

I don't know, I still think that most of Kaladin's negativity was his own "choice". (Obviously this does not include times like when Tien died or he was a slave/ early brigdeman, that was definitely "real" depression) He's been depressed at times, but most of the time he is just negative.

[Blightsong]

32 minutes ago, Hafrigado said:

I don't know, I still think that most of Kaladin's negativity was his own "choice". (Obviously this does not include times like when Tien died or he was a slave/ early brigdeman, that was definitely "real" depression) He's been depressed at times, but most of the time he is just negative.

You should research clinical depression some more, I think you'd find it interesting. I've seen several misconceptions about depression in your lines of reasoning in this thread. When the organ in your body responsible for making decisions malfunctions on a chemical level, your capacity for choice is fairly compromised.

Edited September 6, 2017 by Blightsong

[Hafrigado]

22 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

You should research clinical depression some more, I think you'd find it interesting. I've seen several misconceptions about depression in your lines of reasoning in this thread. When the organ in your body responsible for making decisions malfunctions on a chemical level, your capacity for choice is fairly compromised.

I shall educate myself! 

Oh boy, this will probably be like the time I barely got any school work done because I was trying to understand cones and how we see light so I could figure out exactly how Breaths affect color....

[Fifth of Daybreak]

17 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

You should research clinical depression some more, I think you'd find it interesting. I've seen several misconceptions about depression in your lines of reasoning in this thread. When the organ in your body responsible for making decisions malfunctions on a chemical level, your capacity for choice is fairly compromised.

This^

 

I know it's not intentional, but it seems like you're ignoring a good number of people who have experience with depression and are saying "this is exactly what it's like." I know it's hard to relate to, I've had this conversation with friends in real life who complained about Kaladin. I get it, depression makes it seem like someone is being willfully obstinate or unreasonable. It's not the case, it's a disease process. Just like you can't tell someone to just get over OCD, you can't just say that someone's clinical depression is a 'choice.' 

 

It's hard for others to relate to Kaladin because of those periods of depression. For those of us who have experienced it, it's why we relate to him. Without that life experience fighting the disease, you just cannot appreciate both the accuracy in which it's depicted and the sense of vindication we feel seeing our disease handled seriously like Brandon has. 

 

I know you aren't meaning to be offensive or hurtful, but if you were having this conversation with a friend who had depression, I would bet they would both feel hurt that you aren't taking their experiences seriously, as well as losing trust between you. When you have several people telling you from the own experiences that this is depression, telling us that you disagree and that it can't be is tantamount to saying that our experiences and hardship doesn't matter because it's not logical. Depression isn't logical. It's unreasonable in that it doesn't need reasons to make you sad or muted. 

 

I hope you don't take this as an attack on you or anything similar. I'm not upset or hurt, but I feel like I need to be very direct and blunt to get my point across.  I definitely understand it's hard to comprehend or relate without the requisite experiences, but please try to take our comments at face value without doubting them. We do know what it is like.

[Blightsong]

5 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

I know it's not intentional, but it seems like you're ignoring a good number of people who have experience with depression and are saying "this is exactly what it's like."

He is just relaying his understanding of depression. It is totally reasonable to not take what others say at face value and I dont get the impression that he is stating that he knows "exactly what its like". In fact, all of his statements have explicitly been represented as an opinion.

When dealing with ignorance it is important to meet it with knowledge, as well understanding, as to not alienate people away from a more knowledgeable opinion.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

6 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

He is just relaying his understanding of depression. It is totally reasonable to not take what others say at face value and I dont get the impression that he is stating that he knows "exactly what its like". In fact, all of his statements have explicitly been represented as an opinion.

When dealing with ignorance it is important to meet it with knowledge, as well understanding, as to not alienate people away from a more knowledgeable opinion.

I definitely agree, and I tried to hedge that as much as possible while still trying to point out that some of the things stated can be problematic if it was in a conversation with a friend or loved one about their attitudes. In no way do I want my post to be interpreted as an attack or as casting doubts on Hafrigado's sincerity. As I stated, I'm not upset or offended, but I do think it would be best to confront those specific issues head on in a setting like this where it is an academic discussion.

 

Also, I did not clearly communicate my meaning in one sentence. I wasn't implying he was stating "this is what it's like," but that those of us who relate to Kaladin are saying "yes, this is depression and is exactly what it feels like."

Edited September 6, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[Fulminato]

and clinic depression is only a little chip of a huge mountain. many 'mental desease'  can be called 'depression' but is another problem.

yea, i'm another +1 in the list...

[Hafrigado]

5 minutes ago, Fifth of Daybreak said:

This^

 

I know it's not intentional, but it seems like you're ignoring a good number of people who have experience with depression and are saying "this is exactly what it's like." I know it's hard to relate to, I've had this conversation with friends in real life who complained about Kaladin. I get it, depression makes it seem like someone is being willfully obstinate or unreasonable. It's not the case, it's a disease process. Just like you can't tell someone to just get over OCD, you can't just say that someone's clinical depression is a 'choice.' 

 

It's hard for others to relate to Kaladin because of those periods of depression. For those of us who have experienced it, it's why we relate to him. Without that life experience fighting the disease, you just cannot appreciate both the accuracy in which it's depicted and the sense of vindication we feel seeing our disease handled seriously like Brandon has. 

 

I know you aren't meaning to be offensive or hurtful, but if you were having this conversation with a friend who had depression, I would bet they would both feel hurt that you aren't taking their experiences seriously, as well as losing trust between you. When you have several people telling you from the own experiences that this is depression, telling us that you disagree and that it can't be is tantamount to saying that our experiences and hardship doesn't matter because it's not logical. Depression isn't logical. It's unreasonable in that it doesn't need reasons to make you sad or muted. 

 

I hope you don't take this as an attack on you or anything similar. I'm not upset or hurt, but I feel like I need to be very direct and blunt to get my point across.  I definitely understand it's hard to comprehend or relate without the requisite experiences, but please try to take our comments at face value without doubting them. We do know what it is like.

I'm sorry if I made it seem like I thought depression wasn't serious or that anybody that has had it didn't really. This was not my intention.

What was thinking was that while Kaladin does suffer from depression, it isn't every moment of his life and that when he isn't depressed he's still "grumpy" (the way Zahel is).

I've never had a deep, open conversation with a depressed person (about their depression, I do talk to depressed people), so I'm not very well informed. I was going solely off of what I know about Kaladin.

If I offended anyone or made anyone feel like their struggles weren't real, I am very, very sorry.

[Fifth of Daybreak]

1 minute ago, Hafrigado said:

I'm sorry if I made it seem like I thought depression wasn't serious or that anybody that has had it didn't really. This was not my intention.

What was thinking was that while Kaladin does suffer from depression, it isn't every moment of his life and that when he isn't depressed he's still "grumpy" (the way Zahel is).

I've never had a deep, open conversation with a depressed person (about their depression, I do talk to depressed people), so I'm not very well informed. I was going solely off of what I know about Kaladin.

If I offended anyone or made anyone feel like their struggles weren't real, I am very, very sorry.

I think it's abundantly obvious I didn't get my point across well at all. I apologise. I have no doubts to your sincerity and I don't think that is your mindset, I was trying to illustrate how some of the things you said could be interpreted that way. Please don't take my post as a rebuke. In no way shape or form do I have anything against you for seeking knowledge. There is no bad blood on my end and I hope my lack of tact has not caused any on yours. I have no intention to push you away or make you feel uncomfortable, nor did I want to shame you in any way.