Araris Valerian Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 So while Sazed was in Urteau, he made some arguments to support Vin and Elend. However, he really didn't point out the fact that Kelsier was a mistborn, that he was part nobleman, and that TLR hunted skaa mistings because they were harmful to his government. While Ruin definitely had a sold hold on Quellion, some of his council members could have been swayed by such an argument. This part of the book never really felt right to me, even though Sazed was depressed. Does anyone have any thoughts/has Brandon already revealed this? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Spook, who was the Burning Survivor, was much more advantageously placed to make these arguments but never did. Sazed was a near catatonic state of depression. If you've ever had to deal with a Magic Depressive, you understand. Literally they do not care if they live or die in extreme circumstances. Often they cannot summon the will power to get out of bed. That Sazed does, is a statement of his character. He's dealing with far more than the loss of Tindwyl. He lost his faith. Not merely became disillusioned of a specific religion. He no longer believed there was anything to live for. As Jasnah from SA says, "I have the things I was taught to rely upon. My family, my sense of right and wrong have more meaning than any faith to me." (Paraphrase) Sazed does not even have those guidelines any more. That sense of loss is profound. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I know it's inappropriate, but you called Sazed a Magic Depressive, and I found that hilarious, because he is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 kelsier was a prophet, so normal rules do not apply to him. the citizen would have just replied that kelsier could do what he wished, and that he was no mere mortal. or that he used halfbreed skaa mistings, because he had to work with what he had, but now now more allowances. regardless, it could have convinced a few other people, so it would have been worth a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I can't bring my self to edit that. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechvarry Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 -Sazed discovers there's an omniscient force rewriting small bits of reality. -Takes this as oxymoronic evidence of there being no god. -spends the whole next book making the same shallow argument and never really changing. Continues to claim atheism while a dark god with an obvious opposite (the maker of the prison) has a very real effect on the world. I love Sanderson books through and through, but I have never been satisfied with his treatment of Sazed in HOA. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talenelat Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 -Sazed discovers there's an omniscient force rewriting small bits of reality. -Takes this as oxymoronic evidence of there being no god. -spends the whole next book making the same shallow argument and never really changing. Continues to claim atheism while a dark god with an obvious opposite (the maker of the prison) has a very real effect on the world. I love Sanderson books through and through, but I have never been satisfied with his treatment of Sazed in HOA. ^^ omg this exactly! Mistborn was great, but I just found those Sazed parts to be so difficult to get through. I've read his annotations, and apparently Brandon's first draft of this was even worse & he feels he fixed it (mostly), but I think he could have still done better. Like I said tho, still loved the trilogy, ending included! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quazar87 Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Ruin is a massively powerful extra-Scadrial entity. He's no more a god than Q. None of the shards are. I would certainly never worship any of them, though I would give Harmony my alligience. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Ruin is a massively powerful extra-Scadrial entity. He's no more a god than Q. None of the shards are. I would certainly never worship any of them, though I would give Harmony my alligience. Ruin and Preservation literally created life on Scadrial. At what point do they become actual gods to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Ruin and Preservation literally created life on Scadrial. At what point do they become actual gods to you?Never Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quazar87 Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Ruin and Preservation literally created life on Scadrial. At what point do they become actual gods to you? What could beings bound by time and death ever do to become deities? Nothing, obviously. Who cares what they made or for what reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechvarry Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) This is sounding too much like a "personal beliefs" conversation, guys. Remember this is fictitious and about a fictitious group of people. That said, Ruin and Preservation are more omniscient than any Greek god ever was, and probably a lot more powerful as well. You have to admit that "created human life and can rewrite reality" seems pretty dang deific. If you had 100% evidence such an entity existed, would you profess atheism for the first time in your life as your very next thought? Edited February 26, 2014 by Pechvarry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 I'd say, holy crap a super powered evil entity. I wouldn't call it a god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechvarry Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) Ok, I made a mistake here. Let's try again without projections of our own beliefs: If any normal and mostly logical person had 100% evidence such an entity existed, wouldn't it be strangely illogical for this person to profess atheism for the first time in their life as their very next, moderately logical thought? Edited February 26, 2014 by Pechvarry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Well, if you thought that every religion was possibly right, then learnt that the deity behind most of them was in fact evil and not really a god at all... Then yes. It would be like learning that Santa was actually a mass murderer, and the cookies and milk are begging that he not slaughter us in his sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeldaDad Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 It's been a very long time since I read the trilogy, but I mostly agree with Pechvarry. If it was in fact his immediate conclusion that there was no god, that is odd. However, I think learning this and then developing doubts is completely rational. Sazed was hugely into religious studies and had extensive knowledge on many many religions, but if I recall correctly, he did follow a specific religion? Correct me if I'm wrong. But then he discovers that here is a super-powered entity "ruling" over his world, one that is real and tangible, but it doesn't fit directly with any of the multitude of religions he has studied. I can very much understand a gradual depression forming from this, but probably not something so instant was what the book seems to have portrayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechvarry Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) @Swimmingly: Not to get carried away in semantics, but Ruin wasn't behind most of them (or else The Final Ascension wouldn't make much sense). And I'm mostly referring to the moment at the very end of book 2 where the book says something to the extent of "And he knew right then that he could never believe in any religion ever again" which is wrong, because the "reveal" is that "there is an almost omnipotent entity that plays our lives like puppets." Which is exactly the sort of thing one would expect from a Greek-level pantheon. I don't know if you and Quazar are atheist, believe that any god that can be comprehended by mortals is therefore not a god (the Christian big-G God description), or just want to defend Brandon's work. I just know Ruin exceeds the criteria specified for something to be considered a god in several dozen of Earth's religions, and presumably, several of Sazed's own religions. Honestly, As Endra mentions, it's just that one moment of his faith shattering at the end of Well of Ascension that bothers me so much. And because of this foundation for his completely inaccurate atheism, it's so hard for me to feel good about his behavior throughout Hero of Ages. Contrast: Jasnah. An amazingly well-written atheist who should be Sazed's equal in terms of logical argumentative power. But to me, this just shows how much Sanderson has grown throughout his career. Edited February 26, 2014 by Pechvarry 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 Now that I'm pretty much resigned to Jasnah dying, I'm wondering if she'll make her way to Scadrial and talk to Sazed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted February 26, 2014 Report Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) Now that I'm pretty much resigned to Jasnah dying, I'm wondering if she'll make her way to Scadrial and talk to Sazed. It's funny, and a topic of discussion for another thread I think, but while I was initially sad about the possibility of Jasnah dying, I find that I don't care anymore except a mild twinge of "oh darn now I can't read about her being awesome anymore". The Cosmere has an afterlife. Why be sad about characters dying? I'm curious as to how this will affect my reading of Words of Radiance, because a character is probably going to die at some point in it. Edited February 26, 2014 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartbug Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Whadya mean, Jasnah dying? Noeesssss! But in accordance with the topic, I definitely believe that Sazed's reaction was definitely relatable and plausible, but only if you do not look at it in a vacuum. Throughout the book, nothing happens other than build him up. He triumphs over everything, gets the girl, beats down Marsh. Then Twyndl dies, Dockson bids adieu, and Luthadel is all but destroyed. He learns that a dark, malicious "god" (A Satanic devil like being, if you will) that is in none of his religions, has been released upon the world. It's his fault, and Sazed has failed. If I learned that somehow, I had orchestrated the release of the devil upon the world, and I could literally see it fall into hell around me, my faith would be shattered at least, if not down right incinerated. I think the fact that Sazed was able to hold on for as long as he did only further validates the strength of his character. My two cents. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robot Aztec Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 I'd say, holy crap a super powered evil entity. I wouldn't call it a god. would you cal,l loki agod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeldaDad Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 @bartbug Well said. I agree with those points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quazar87 Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 Do any of Sazed's gathered religions postulate many gods screwing around with humans? I just reread Mistborn and I don't remember any like that. I'm reading Well of Ascension now but nothing so far. Why should Sazed assume that a power entity manipulating religion was a god, when he has no examples like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quiver Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) would you cal,l loki agod? Yes. Because comic book Loki is a god, the same way Darkseid is a god. Of course, movie Loki is an alien (or something?) and I'm about 99% sure that the upcoming Justice League movie will be a ) a disaster, and b ) recast the God of Evil as a planet conquering alien, so whatever. [/snark] Edited February 27, 2014 by Quiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly Posted February 27, 2014 Report Share Posted February 27, 2014 would you cal,l loki agod? Would you say Loki has moral authority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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