Kaladin and Heleran

[Contessa she/her]

I'd be surprised if there hasn't been a lot of discussion about this already, but I was wondering when Shallan will find out that Kaladin killed her brother/what her reaction will be. My thinking is that she'll put it together pretty soon, but with Kaladin away I'm not sure how she'll react. 

I personally don't have much to say on the subject, but I'd love to hear some ideas, or if there are many related WoB's.

[Nathrangking he/him]

It could conceivably unhinge her. She... 

Spoiler

loved him dearly as WoR makes clear. He was seemingly the sane one in her family who stood up to her father when no one else would and to find out that Kaladin took him away from her could do some bad things to her psyche. She could lash out which would only be exacerbated by the antagonistic relationship between honorspren and cryptics.

 

[Farnsworth]

Generally the realization of these traumas leads her to creating a new Truth that moves her farther along through the ranks of Lightweavers. Maybe this will inspire a new one. 

[Nathrangking he/him]

The difference here though is that is not a truth for her to acknowledge. She would not necessarily have a trouble believing it so would admitting it be a truth? All of the other times it was something that she denied and  then was forced to realize which made it a moment anagnorisis which became a powerful truth.

[Calderis he/him]

She is bitter towards Amaram, but has already stated that she realizes he was attacked and likely didn't know who Heleran was. 

When she does put it together and thinks of the circumstances in the story that he told her, I'm pretty sure she'll see it for what it is. 

I don't think anything will come of it, as she's already accepted his death in book. 

[Nathrangking he/him]

She may accept it now, but in light of the fact that someone who she trusts killed her brother may change things for her. That wound is unlikely to heal so easily, it is easy to imagine that that the new facts could tear open the wound and cause her to do something regrettable. 

[Azul he/him]

I think it will depend on how she finds out.  She will likely start off upset either way but if Kaladin tells her himself she will likely forgive him for it.  If she finds out on her own she may feel he was lying or keeping it a secret from her and could hold it against him.

[scifan he/him]

I would suspect that as long as she heard the whole story (and how Kaladin lost so many whom he deeply cared out) to her brother, I would think that would factor in...

 

One aspect I haven't yet figured out though... If the Skybreaker's are still around as an order... don't they still have their Spren?  If they have their spren... and new members bond spren...  IF Heleran had joined the skybreaker's as King T said he had, wouldn't he have bonded a spren... and in turn given up his blade and armor that Shallon was familiar with?

 

Several If's above, there, but it would seem to me that one of the other theories I've read on here about Heleran still being alive might be a valid theory, and the the person Kal killed on the battlefield could have easily been someone other than Heleran...

[Calderis he/him]

Read the Chasm scene again. Unless I'm totally misremembering, they already told each other their stories. Enough that Kaladin realized after the fact that her brother is who he killed. 

I don't think anything else needs to be said. She'll realize how it happened, and that he had no idea who he was fighting. And how much he paid for it. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

Read the Chasm scene again. Unless I'm totally misremembering, they already told each other their stories. Enough that Kaladin realized after the fact that her brother is who he killed. 

I don't think anything else needs to be said. She'll realize how it happened, and that he had no idea who he was fighting. And how much he paid for it. 

I reread that yesterday actually, and the way its written, with Kaladin spending half a page of pondering over Helarans death, and wether she knows that he killed him, made me think that this will be important later on. That scene felt like a buildup to something. 

My personal view is that Shallan will feel betrayed. Yes, it isn't rational, but I think she will. Like others say, she trusts Kaladin, and suddenly finding out that he killed her brother, and witheld that from her will hurt. 

[geralt]

I very much doubt Brandon purposefully wrote the chasm scene in WoR so that Kaladin wouldn't tell Shallan about killing her brother to then do nothing about it. I'm sure there will be some kind of drama as a result, potentially causing Kaladin and Shallan to be in bad terms for a while

[maxal she/her]

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

Read the Chasm scene again. Unless I'm totally misremembering, they already told each other their stories. Enough that Kaladin realized after the fact that her brother is who he killed. 

I don't think anything else needs to be said. She'll realize how it happened, and that he had no idea who he was fighting. And how much he paid for it. 

I personally feel the fact Kaladin withhold the truth from Shallan in a moment where she felt they were confiding into each other will matter. She told Kaladin harsh truths, difficult truths and, knowing how Shallan has regressed by not wanting to deal with those truths, the fact she shares them is very meaningful to her character which is why Kaladin not being truthful might make her react negatively.

As @geralt is saying, I doubt Brandon wrote the scene, had Kaladin realized he killed Helaran, had him think about it not to use it later on in a future scene. So I do think it will matter, I don't think nothing will come out of it, though what might befall, I cannot say.

[Calderis he/him]

@Toaster Retribution @maxal

The reason I think the way I do, may very well be that I just don't want the love triangle or anything associated with it. The reason I feel the way I do though, is that at that point, Kaladin had already shared his story. She was telling hers and he was able to make the connection that Heleran was the Shardbearer he killed. 

Shallan isn't stupid. Kal may not have interrupted her to say "oh no, I killed your brother!" but she's just as capable of putting the pieces together as he is. Him feeling trepidation about the fact is realistic and completely separate from her feelings. 

Even towards Amaram, who she feels bitterness towards having believed his part in it, she's admitted that he didn't know who Heleran, or she, was. When those feelings are transferred to Kaladin, who she has reason to have understanding with, and who she's been told the exact circumstances it happened under, that she would somehow feel more harshly towards him than she does towards Amaram makes no sense to me. 

I think that section was just Kaladin having the realization, and his understandable feelings about it. 

To suddenly have Shallan hate him for it, with the thoughts she's shown about her feelings concerning Helerans death, and having received the story from Kaladin before he could have known who it was that he'd killed... I just don't like it, and think it would undermine the build up of her intelligence. I'm not saying she won't struggle with it, and I'm not saying it won't ever come up. I just think that if she has some meltdown due to a realization she should honestly have had when Kaladin told his story, before she told hers... It would feel contrived to add drama to the love triangle. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Calderis

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

@Calderis

I do understand your reasoning. But there are some points to bring up anyway:

Shallan doesn't know that Helarans Shards belonged to Kaladin. She just knows that Amaram killed Kaladins men to cover up a theft. So there isn't really that much of a reason for her to piece everything together. Because Shallan doesn't actually know that Kaladin has killed a Shardbearer.

When it comes to the love triangle, this could add drama in lots of ways. I suspect that you are worried about Shallan growing angry at Kaladin, and starting to hate him. However, it is also possible that she starts feeling bad about loving him, since he murdered her brother (which would be more of an internal conflict). Or she just simply starts to dislike him in the same way she did with Amaram. She knows its unfair, but she just cant help it.

[Krandacth]

On 11/08/2017 at 3:22 PM, Calderis said:

Shallan isn't stupid. Kal may not have interrupted her to say "oh no, I killed your brother!" but she's just as capable of putting the pieces together as he is.

As @Toaster Retribution alluded to, Kaladin explicitly thinks back on how he told his story when Shallan explains about Heleran's death, and realises that he withheld the fact that he killed the Shardbearer when talking of the events that led to Amaram's betrayal of his squad, a habit that he had got into after many beatings for lying as a slave. So Shallan knows that he was there when Heleran was killed, but doesn't have the information necessary to make the same leap Kaladin has. In fact, if anything, Shallan is likely to see Kaladin as even more of a kindred spirit as a result of the version she's heard: Amaram killed a member of her family, then killed all of Kaladin's surrogate family to cover up some elements of it.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Krandacth

[Calderis he/him]

16 minutes ago, Krandacth said:

As @Toaster Retribution alluded to, Kaladin explicitly thinks back on how he told his story when Shallan explains about Heleran's death, and realises that he withheld the fact that he killed the Shardbearer when talking of the events that led to Amaram's betrayal of his squad, a habit that he had got into after many beatings for lying as a slave

I'd forgotten that part. Thank you. That does change things. 

[maxal she/her]

On 8/11/2017 at 10:22 AM, Calderis said:

@Toaster Retribution @maxal

The reason I think the way I do, may very well be that I just don't want the love triangle or anything associated with it. The reason I feel the way I do though, is that at that point, Kaladin had already shared his story. She was telling hers and he was able to make the connection that Heleran was the Shardbearer he killed. 

Shallan isn't stupid. Kal may not have interrupted her to say "oh no, I killed your brother!" but she's just as capable of putting the pieces together as he is. Him feeling trepidation about the fact is realistic and completely separate from her feelings. 

Even towards Amaram, who she feels bitterness towards having believed his part in it, she's admitted that he didn't know who Heleran, or she, was. When those feelings are transferred to Kaladin, who she has reason to have understanding with, and who she's been told the exact circumstances it happened under, that she would somehow feel more harshly towards him than she does towards Amaram makes no sense to me. 

I think that section was just Kaladin having the realization, and his understandable feelings about it. 

To suddenly have Shallan hate him for it, with the thoughts she's shown about her feelings concerning Helerans death, and having received the story from Kaladin before he could have known who it was that he'd killed... I just don't like it, and think it would undermine the build up of her intelligence. I'm not saying she won't struggle with it, and I'm not saying it won't ever come up. I just think that if she has some meltdown due to a realization she should honestly have had when Kaladin told his story, before she told hers... It would feel contrived to add drama to the love triangle. 

Why are you so much against the love triangle? It is inevitable now: Brandon has written Shallan has potentially having romantic feelings for both Kaladin and Adolin while having written both Adolin and Kaladin has reciprocating. He can't very well ignored the written canon and made it as if nothing ever happened in between Shallan and Kaladin nor can he ignored the fact Adolin is in love with Shallan combined with the fact she doesn't seem to hate him either. There will further exploration on how the kids feel on towards the other and while it may be the conclusion will result into one lasting ship, as opposed to a long-lasting love triangle where both guys keep on pinning on the girl while the girl alternatively pins on one or the other, there will be a moment where we won't be sure which ship will sail.

My personal thoughts are Shallan's attraction to Kaladin is purely based on this "moment" they shared down in the chasm. It was the very first time she was honest with someone, she told him the truth, so independently of the circumstances, it certainly mattered to her. A lot. And hearing what she believes to be the full story of Kaladin's hardships certainly can have increased the impression their relationship started within a great moment of both trust and sharing. It was so powerful it wouldn't be surprising a young teenager's mind would have thought this one-time event is definitely the mark-up for a future relationship. After all, most teenage girls will put way more emphasis on small events, giving them meanings they don't actually have and distort their impressions of such moments to make them true bonding experience. This is often seen. Therefore, when finding out Kaladin hasn't been honest with her, he hasn't told her the whole truth and, worst, he withhold the information enabling her to identify him as Helaran's killer could definitely... kill the moment. 

Thus, it isn't so much Shallan will be angry at Kaladin for the remainder of the book nor she won't be able to rationalized Kaladin had to either kill Helaran or die, it will be the unraveling of what she perhaps perceived as a bonding experience. It might deflate the balloon she has for Kaladin and make her realize what she liked about him really isn't him, but the fact they were able to tell the truth to each other. However, it becomes meaningless when the other party hasn't been truthful. To Shallan, this may matter more than whom actually killed Helaran.

These are my thoughts anyway.

[Calderis he/him]

46 minutes ago, maxal said:

Why are you so much against the love triangle?

Because frankly it's over done and I don't find it at all interesting in the scope of the story. 

I understand that it's already there, and it's going to happen, it just happens to be the part of the story I'd be most willing to see die. 

[aemetha he/him]

I'm not convinced there will be a love triangle. I think we're overlooking the fact that Shallan is a teenage girl. They generally fall in love with anyone who looks at them for more than three seconds and has "dreamy eyes", which lasts all of the ten days it takes for someone else with "zomg look at his abs" to come along". Infatuation is not love. I can see Adolin going the distance with her because they've actually developed something beyond a passing fancy, but what happened with Kaladin strikes me at this point as a momentary urge that may not ever go anywhere.

[Contessa she/her]

Okay, I'm feeling the need to step in. I thought our society was moving passed the idea that teenage girls swoon at every attractive guy they see. Being a girl myself, I think I have the authority to say that, while this may be true for some people, it can't be said for everyone. Shallan is not "infatuated" with Kaladin, nor has she fallen in love with everyone who has "dreamy eyes". In my personal opinion, Kabsal actually had feelings for Shallan (feel free to step in if there's a WoB or something of the sort to disprove this), more so than she did for him. And Adolin was just as quick to like Shallan as she was to like him, not to mention the fact that his eyes are more liable to wander than many teenage girls' I know....

Sorry for the rant, but this was bugging me a bit.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Contessa

[Calderis he/him]

@Contessa right there with you. 

Teenagers are all bonkers. Hormones are crazy. Guys are just as bad, and the level of fickleness varies from person to person. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

@Contessa WoB for you (you are correct about Kabsal).

Quote

 

KAIST

If Kabsal hadn't been trying to kill Jasnah, would him and Shallan have gotten together?

BRANDON SANDERSON

It's uncertain. He actually did care for her, but he was an assassin trained to infiltrate and gain the trust of people like Shallan. If he hadn't been trying to kill Jasnah, he would never have had a reason to begin spending time with Shallan. However, I assume your question is if they had somehow started interacting, would they have gotten together. It's possible, but I don't think--in the end--it would have lasted.

 

[maxal she/her]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

Because frankly it's over done and I don't find it at all interesting in the scope of the story. 

I understand that it's already there, and it's going to happen, it just happens to be the part of the story I'd be most willing to see die. 

But it will never be the main story arc... The romance arc is a minor sub arc: it will never take over the main narrative which is why I don't understand why it is so bothersome. If it creates interesting development within the involved characters, then why is it so terrible? How different is it than Kaladin brooding for four chapters within prison? At least, it involves inter-character inter-action which is much better than Kaladin's inner monologue, IMHO.

I really don't get all the hate for the love triangle. It doesn't seem like the worst story arc ever: several proposed story arcs seem much worst, again, IMHO.

6 hours ago, Contessa said:

Okay, I'm feeling the need to step in. I thought our society was moving passed the idea that teenage girls swoon at every attractive guy they see. Being a girl myself, I think I have the authority to say that, while this may be true for some people, it can't be said for everyone. Shallan is not "infatuated" with Kaladin, nor has she fallen in love with everyone who has "dreamy eyes". In my personal opinion, Kabsal actually had feelings for Shallan (feel free to step in if there's a WoB or something of the sort to disprove this), more so than she did for him. And Adolin was just as quick to like Shallan as she was to like him, not to mention the fact that his eyes are more liable to wander than many teenage girls' I know....

Sorry for the rant, but this was bugging me a bit.

Being a girl myself I will say many girls will create their dream fantasy out of nothing if they wish to. I have seen too many girls fall for a guy merely because they felt they had "a connection" or "an impulse" or "a vibe" or anything just as meaningless. I am no exception to the rule. Point is girls, on average, will tend to give more meanings to small life events than guys which is why I do think Shallan is more likely to give a strong meaning to her conversation with Kaladin than he. It has nothing to do with girls falling for the first set of abs, but girls falling more easily to the first event they perceive as the "once in a lifetime" gig. Girls will more readily create a dream fantasy out of small time encounters than guys and Shallan seems no exception. Her infatuation with Kabsal truly shows it. They did nothing, nothing at all but eat bread together, but all of a sudden she treats it as if it were the most meaningful event within her short life. It wasn't. Of course, I could be wrong about the Shallan/Kaladin conversation, but I definitely think it could go down this way.

It is thus, to me, this isn't about society having passed the idea teenage girls will swoon at every attractive guy they see, it is more about teenage girls giving more meanings to events they ought to and being quick at creating their dream fantasy. After all, didn't Shallan wonder about how her children with Adolin would look like? Of course, she promptly corrects herself, but I doubt Adolin had the same thoughts.

 It all comes down to what attracts one gender more than another: girls and guys are different, they won't look at the same things nor will they react the same to similar situations.

[aemetha he/him]

8 hours ago, Contessa said:

I thought our society was moving passed the idea that teenage girls swoon at every attractive guy they see. Being a girl myself, I think I have the authority to say that, while this may be true for some people, it can't be said for everyone.

No, you're right about it not being everyone. That's why I said generally. I should probably have noted as well that impulsivity isn't only a trait of teenage girls, teenage boys are also prone to impulsivity. Teenagers in general are prone to impulsivity and it is posited to be an important developmental phase. Physical brain development is not completed until the early to mid twenties, and that obviously has some behavioural influence. The manifestation of impulsivity does differ broadly however (though it is far from a one gender always does this and the other gender always does that).

Erikson's theory of psychosocial development defines the key development milestone of teens to be one of identity versus identity confusion - finding ones place in the wider psychosocial context. The developmental milestone of the young adulthood (20-30) stage on the other hand is intimacy versus isolation, and this is where people learn to establish committed enduring relationships. Now it is true that people don't move through the stages of developmental models at the same rate, but it can still be said to generally follow the stages of the models.

As far as girls versus boys specifically goes from an evolutionary perspective, it has been observed that different sexual strategies are employed by the different genders. Women seek to force mates with sufficient resources into committed relationships in return to sexual access. Men on the other hand have two quite distinctly observed strategies for short and long term mates, with the short term being seeking to spread their seed as widely as possible in order to maximise their opportunity to continue their genetic line. With longer term partners however they tend to remain committed in exchange for resources, sexual availability and assurety that their genetic line is preserved through monogamy.

These observations occur across cultures, and women have been noted to prefer attributes such as intelligence and ability to provide (those we associate with love, and lend themselves toward raising offspring) while men have been noted to prefer attributes such as youth and physical fitness (those we associate with lust, and lend themselves toward creating offspring), so when you combine the differing evolutionary drives, with tendency towards impulsiveness, and not yet having developmentally achieved a competency in commitment, young women tend to find infatuation easily, and young men tend to compete (fight) easily, generally.

A case can be argued that historically men and women entered into committed relationships at younger ages, but consider also that doesn't mean that young people were any less impulsive or developing any faster, we are simply more tolerant (and have a greater understanding) in modern society of the impetuousness of youth. Now none of that is to say men and women should not be treated equally, but we should also not attempt to hide from gender differences out of a fear of straying into the realms of mysogeny. It's perfectly okay to celebrate the differences between men and women as long as we afford the same rights in both intent, words and action to the genders.

So I stand by my initial comments, I don't believe Shallan is mature enough to not become infatuated with Kalladin in the moment, and I don't believe that means she is invariably destined to become involved in a love triangle because of an infatuation.

[Contessa she/her]

@aemetha I was mostly triggered by the tone of your comment, rather than the actual scientific differences between genders (which I certainly agree are a reality).