Will Adolin be the Traitor?

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Dalinar is not an opportunist. That requires a mental flexibility that he severely lacks. 

 I nearly choked with laughter when I read this one. Good one and fair point. I guess his behavior could look like he is trying to be opportunist, but you are right in saying he does not have the mental flexibility to do so purposefully.

13 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Yes he would go harder on Adolin than anyone else, but that's purely because of his expectations of Adolin, not politics. 

A person who was opportunistic politically would be more skilled in Alethi politics than Dalinar. They wouldn't have allowed the openings that Dalinar handed to Sadeas. 

Rigidity and opportunism are completely incompatible, and we know which of the two Dalinar is. 

My main issue with the whole Adolin deal is the more I think of it, the more convinced I am of the following: Adolin does not deserves to be harshly punished for murdering Sadeas. 

Dalinar deserves to make a personal introspection and realized he has caused much of the issue by refusing to deal with his old friend. It escalated because he allowed it to. His son was goat, used, manipulated and pushed towards a cliff and put in a situation where he had to choose in between the life of everyone he loves and murder, all of this because Dalinar allowed it to happen. 

So while Adolin's actions can't be forgiven entirely, his punishment should be more symbolic than harsh. Say revoke his title as "King's Champion" and forbid him to claim it again, to enter the dueling ring again for no reason at all up until the postponed duel with Sadeas is scheduled to happen. Have Adolin give away one set of Shards he has won to house Sadeas in retribution and call it done. This way you do punish Adolin, you remove Dalinar from the possibility of using his son to win even more Shards, you take away something Adolin loves, but you do not make it final nor life-long. You give him penance, but not a punishment so harsh he'll never get a second chance, worst one so harsh he might think it so unfair, he'll rebel.

That would be Dalinar being a good father and a good leader: an appropriate punishment, fair which also allows him to shelter his son from those who will demand his head. This being said, when you love someone, you try to find every single possibilities to lower the punishment, baring you find none, then you apply the one which is fair. Adolin has hordes of little things which push into his favor, but Dalinar will likely ignore them because it is Adolin.

Edited August 9, 2017 by maxal

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

4 minutes ago, maxal said:

Dalinar deserves to make a personal introspection and realized he has caused much of the issue by refusing to deal with his old friend. It escalated because he allowed it to. His son was goat, used, manipulated and pushed towards a cliff and put in a situation where he had to choose in between the life of everyone he loves and murder, all of this because Dalinar allowed it to happen. 

Isn't this a little unfair against Dalinar? He couldn't act against Sadeas without starting a war that would splinter Alethkar, and most likely end up in a loss for him and his family. 

Dalinar was also unable to stop Sadeas from taunting Adolin. For one, he probably didnt know about it. Even if he did, he has little authority over Sadeas, and could hardly stop him from talking to Adolin. 

[Calderis he/him]

3 minutes ago, maxal said:

That would be Dalinar being a good father and a good leader: an appropriate punishment, fair which also allows him to shelter his son from those who will demand his head. This being said, when you love someone, you try to find every single possibilities to lower the punishment, baring you find none, then you apply the one which is fair. Adolin has hordes of little things which push into his favor, but Dalinar will likely ignore them because it is Adolin.

This is just my opinion, so I don't mean to offend by it. 

Protecting your child from the consequences of their own actions, even if they'd be painful or long term is not being a good parent. It's being an enabler. 

I think that Dalinar needs to recognize his own role in events and offer to share in the punishment, but regardless of how Adolin and Sadeas got there, the actions were still his. 

Protecting a child at all costs is the opposite extreme of Dalinar's parenting of Adolin. He's too Harsh I fully agree. Pain and struggle are necessary parts of life through which we learn and grow. There's got to be a middle ground, because either you are overly harsh and restrictive, or your completely permissive and you've essentially raised Elhokar. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Isn't this a little unfair against Dalinar? He couldn't act against Sadeas without starting a war that would splinter Alethkar, and most likely end up in a loss for him and his family. 

Dalinar was also unable to stop Sadeas from taunting Adolin. For one, he probably didnt know about it. Even if he did, he has little authority over Sadeas, and could hardly stop him from talking to Adolin. 

After the assassination attempt on Dalinar was rightly pinned to Sadeas, Dalinar should have confronted Sadeas. He could have demanded him to duel him and thus replaying the ploy they had wish to used, but with himself in the arena instead of Adolin. 

Dalinar allowed Sadeas to remain an unchecked threat after the 4 on 1 duel failed.

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

This is just my opinion, so I don't mean to offend by it. 

Protecting your child from the consequences of their own actions, even if they'd be painful or long term is not being a good parent. It's being an enabler. 

I think that Dalinar needs to recognize his own role in events and offer to share in the punishment, but regardless of how Adolin and Sadeas got there, the actions were still his. 

Protecting a child at all costs is the opposite extreme of Dalinar's parenting of Adolin. He's too Harsh I fully agree. Pain and struggle are necessary parts of life through which we learn and grow. There's got to be a middle ground, because either you are overly harsh and restrictive, or your completely permissive and you've essentially raised Elhokar. 

Read back carefully: I am not saying not to punish your child if your child deserves it. I am saying being fair in punishing said child. Does Adolin's actions really deserve the harsh line we all fear Dalinar will give him? No. They don't. Because Sadeas's actions made him a man needing to be disposed of, it made him a traitor, a criminal and man needing punishment. Had Adolin killed Highprince Ruthar just because he orchestrated the 4 on 1 duel, then yes, he would have deserved harsh punishment, but this isn't the case. 

Hence, son or no, Dalinar needs to be fair. The fact it is his son we are speaking of should make him more inclined to be fair, but it will do the opposite. What kind of person forces his own child to go through a harsher than required punishment just to make an example? That's not good parenting, not even close. Consequences have to match the actions and the circumstances and circumstances matter more than the act itself within Adolin's case.

Thus, in between ignoring your own child's misgiving (such as what Dalinar is doing with Elhokar) and making an example out of him, there are many valid fair punishments to be had. Reading your post however it seems like we actually agree. I would add from Adolin's perspective, having your father make an example out of you while ignoring the misgivings of your cousin makes for an extraordinarily harsh punishment. It is bad enough to have to suffer out of proportion consequences for murdering a man your own legal system failed to prosecute, it is awful when your father is the one ordering them because your father should, at the very least, attempt not to force the too hard line with you. You know because a father is supposed to love you.

[Calderis he/him]

@maxal that makes sense, and I do mostly agree. 

I prefaced my post the way I did because I've learned over the past five years that parenting is a remarkably touchy subject. 

The problem I see from Dalinar's perspective, is he has to realize how unbalanced his treatment of Adolin is, and he just doesn't. If Adolin's actions come to light he's going to be hard on him, not because he consciously has to be harder on Adolin than anyone else, but because he holds Adolin to a higher standard. 

It's not fair by itself, and it's especially harsh in contrast with his unwavering support of Elhokar in lieu of his dead brother. 

I don't know how it will play out, but as I've stated in other threads, I don't think the other Highprinces are going to be Clamoring to support Adolin, and in turn that's going to put Elhokar against Adolin. So I think the real crux of the issue is going to be that this situation is going to pit Dalinar's love for his son, against the surrogate he's created for Gavilar via Elhokar. 

I truly hope he can come down on Adolin's side. Gavilar doesn't deserve the image that Dalinar has created in his mind, and Elhokar is a spoiled child. The two of them together aren't worth a 1/10 of the potential Adolin shows. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

10 minutes ago, maxal said:

After the assassination attempt on Dalinar was rightly pinned to Sadeas, Dalinar should have confronted Sadeas. He could have demanded him to duel him and thus replaying the ploy they had wish to used, but with himself in the arena instead of Adolin. 

Dalinar allowed Sadeas to remain an unchecked threat after the 4 on 1 duel failed.

I doubt it would be that easy. Sadeas wouldn't have any reason to accept a duel with Dalinar, just because Dalinar accused him of attempted murder without any kind of proof. He would have to receive the Kings Boon in a similar way as Adolin did, in order to challenge Sadeas. And even if he did that, I doubt Sadeas would let himself be caught in the same trap twice.

[Calderis he/him]

13 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

And even if he did that, I doubt Sadeas would let himself be caught in the same trap twice.

No, because unlike Dalinar, Sadeas was a politically savvy opportunist. 

[Steeldancer he/him]

I always have thought that adolin threw oathbringer too hard and it fell and stabbed one of those villagers on the mountain on the head. 

What a fascinating way to begin the investigation. And it would be hilarious. Stabbed by a falling shardblade. 

[Guest]

43 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@maxal that makes sense, and I do mostly agree. 

I prefaced my post the way I did because I've learned over the past five years that parenting is a remarkably touchy subject. 

The problem I see from Dalinar's perspective, is he has to realize how unbalanced his treatment of Adolin is, and he just doesn't. If Adolin's actions come to light he's going to be hard on him, not because he consciously has to be harder on Adolin than anyone else, but because he holds Adolin to a higher standard. 

It's not fair by itself, and it's especially harsh in contrast with his unwavering support of Elhokar in lieu of his dead brother. 

I don't know how it will play out, but as I've stated in other threads, I don't think the other Highprinces are going to be Clamoring to support Adolin, and in turn that's going to put Elhokar against Adolin. So I think the real crux of the issue is going to be that this situation is going to pit Dalinar's love for his son, against the surrogate he's created for Gavilar via Elhokar. 

I truly hope he can come down on Adolin's side. Gavilar doesn't deserve the image that Dalinar has created in his mind, and Elhokar is a spoiled child. The two of them together aren't worth a 1/10 of the potential Adolin shows. 

Parenting is a very touchy subject, but I find it fascinating. I would say, within the past 7 years, learning how to deal with children, when to be hard, when to be lenient, how to match consequences to action, how to deal with inter-sibling jealousy is extraordinarily unbelievably hard. What if I can't raise my kids to be healthy well-balanced adults? What if by trying to motivate them to learn I end up doing the opposite? It is so hard! And frustrating. Everything is so much easier said than done and trust me, I'm hardly the perfect mother. This being said, what grates me with Dalinar's parenting isn't the fact I see it as imperfect, nor the fact Dalinar has made (and is still making) mistakes, but the fact he is completely oblivious to any of it, the fact he is unable to call out his own failures, his own misconceptions and his own injustice.

I agree Dalinar is not seeing how unbalanced his parenting is, how lenient he is with both Elhokar and Renarin, how he listens more readily to Kaladin than he does to Adolin. We see, in The Thrill how Dalinar got to dote endlessly on Elhokar, we see the confirmation this behavior comes from his guilt towards feeling jealous of Gavilar. In shorts, because he feels he has slighted his brother, Dalinar compensated by doting on his nephew. Poor Adolin just isn't born out of any guilt (or so it appears, I haven't read any flashback post his birth), hence all he's got is the hard line.

I don't think the other Highprinces will support Adolin: he angered them, he humiliated them and he has positioned himself as a threat. They will prefer to deal with him now than allowing him to keep on growing. This being said, I have no idea if Elhokar will support Adolin or not: he does seem to be more fond of his younger cousin then the opposite... So he may somehow end up being the "voice of reason" and rightly point out they can't spare Adolin: he does too much and the men love him too much. Throw him away and Dalinar may risk a mutiny as I think there is a fair chance the army will more readily support Adolin than Dalinar.

I do however love the idea of Dalinar needing to choose in between Elhokar and Adolin... I might have said a few times I could see it playing down this way. I have also said Dalinar will likely need an "eye opener" event to truly see what he has been doing. I mean, if Adolin can bring forth the ultimate proof of his loyalty to his father and if Dalinar is able to see all his son is willing to give up for him, then perhaps he'll be able to love him more and stop being too hard.

53 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I doubt it would be that easy. Sadeas wouldn't have any reason to accept a duel with Dalinar, just because Dalinar accused him of attempted murder without any kind of proof. He would have to receive the Kings Boon in a similar way as Adolin did, in order to challenge Sadeas. And even if he did that, I doubt Sadeas would let himself be caught in the same trap twice.

As a Highprince, Dalinar has the right to demand Sadeas to duel him out of a failed assassination attempt. The only reason they had to go for the king's boon was because they wanted Adolin to duel Sadeas and he does not rank high enough to demand a Highprince in duel. Not legally. 

Also, they had the proof the assassin came from Sadeas's war camp. Even if it had failed, Dalinar once again not doing anything is what allowed his son to get trapped into a no-win scenario where his love for his family is pitched against unfair laws.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

@maxal I dont know how easy it would be for Dalinar to prove that the assassin came from Sadeas warcamp though. Sadeas himself would probably deny it, and try to cover his tracks (which I think he is pretty good at). Also, looking at the relationship between Dalinar and Sadeas at that point, I think that Dalinar would have gone after Sadeas if he thought he could manage it without splintering Alethkar. Sadeas living as long as he did had nothing to do with leniency on Dalinars part. He might have been too careful, and too afraid of accidentally ruining the kingdom, which might have affected his stance against Sadeas. And again, I suspect that the politically savvy Sadeas would be careful, and cover his tracks well, particularly after what happened in the arena.

Furthermore, Dalinar again didn't know of Adolins meetings with Sadeas, and he couldn't predict that the murder would happen. Dalinar believes that Adolin would be able to rein in his temper, and not snap and kill Sadeas, probably because Adolin hasn't snapped and murdered people before. This might be were Dalinar is at fault, with having too high expectations for his son, and not expecting him to snap. But then again, Dalinar didn't know about the frequent taunting.

[Jingpoo]

I have lurked for years and do not normally post.  Dalinar is a Stoneward Bondsmith and not a Skybreaker.  His oath is to unite and not divide.  Therefore, I believe that he will see that punishing Adolin harshly will not only cause his family ruin, but cause a fracture among the Radiants.   All Radiants or Surgebinders known to him at this time either care for Adolin greatly or despise Sadeas, so I believe that it is safe to hypothesize that this will be a major internal conflict for Dalinar.  While Dalinar will be pushed by the High Princes to seek justice for Sadeas’s murder, Dalinar will choose to unite the Knights Radiant instead.  Everything that Dalinar has done to this point was to unite Alethkar, but the scope of his vision has changed by the end of WoR.  All of Roshar is in danger, plus eventually Dalinar must find out why Gavilar was assassinated in the first place.

I also do not believe that Adolin is the traitor to which the quote is referencing.  One we have no clue who the others are in this case.  As someone stated earlier it could very well be one of the Unmade.   I believe it could also be referencing one of the orders in its entirety.   But my hunch is that it is one of the orders of Voidbringing.  I believe that the Stormfather said Odium might be able to be defeated if he were to promote a Champion.   I think that the traitor will be Eshonai.  No proof just fancy.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Jingpoo
Thanks Flash for catching that for me...

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 minute ago, Jingpoo said:

I have lurked for years and do not normally post.  Dalinar is a Stoneward and not a Skybreaker.  His oath is to unite and not divide.  Therefore, I believe that he will see that punishing Adolin harshly will not only cause his family ruin, but cause a fracture among the Radiants.   All Radiants or Surgebinders known to him at this time either care for Adolin greatly or despise Sadeas, so I believe that it is safe to hypothesize that this will be a major internal conflict for Dalinar.  While Dalinar will be pushed by the High Princes to seek justice for Sadeas’s murder, Dalinar will choose to unite the Knights Radiant instead.  Everything that Dalinar has done to this point was to unite Alethkar, but the scope of his vision has changed by the end of WoR.  All of Roshar is in danger, plus eventually Dalinar must find out why Gavilar was assassinated in the first place.

I also do not believe that Adolin is the traitor to which the quote is referencing.  One we have no clue who the others are in this case.  As someone stated earlier it could very well be one of the Unmade.   I believe it could also be referencing one of the orders in its entirety.   But my hunch is that it is one of the orders of Voidbringing.  I believe that the Stormfather said Odium might be able to be defeated if he were to promote a Champion.   I think that the traitor will be Eshonai.  No proof just fancy.

Um.... Dalinar is a BONDSMITH. 

We haven't seen any stoneward Radiants yet. 

[Jingpoo]

**Goes back to hide in a corner in shame**

[Steeldancer he/him]

Just now, Jingpoo said:

**Goes back to hide in a corner in shame**

it's ok you don't need to be shamed. We all miss obvious things sometimes. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

23 minutes ago, Jingpoo said:

**Goes back to hide in a corner in shame**

No, dont! There are so many things to keep up with in Brandons books. Things like this are bound to happen. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

@maxal I dont know how easy it would be for Dalinar to prove that the assassin came from Sadeas warcamp though. Sadeas himself would probably deny it, and try to cover his tracks (which I think he is pretty good at). Also, looking at the relationship between Dalinar and Sadeas at that point, I think that Dalinar would have gone after Sadeas if he thought he could manage it without splintering Alethkar. Sadeas living as long as he did had nothing to do with leniency on Dalinars part. He might have been too careful, and too afraid of accidentally ruining the kingdom, which might have affected his stance against Sadeas. And again, I suspect that the politically savvy Sadeas would be careful, and cover his tracks well, particularly after what happened in the arena.

Furthermore, Dalinar again didn't know of Adolins meetings with Sadeas, and he couldn't predict that the murder would happen. Dalinar believes that Adolin would be able to rein in his temper, and not snap and kill Sadeas, probably because Adolin hasn't snapped and murdered people before. This might be were Dalinar is at fault, with having too high expectations for his son, and not expecting him to snap. But then again, Dalinar didn't know about the frequent taunting.

I haven't checked my book in a while, so I will keep a hinge of doubt about my answer, but didn't they identify the culprit as member of the Sadeas's princedom? Dalinar definitely has the right to call Sadeas out for it and demand a duel, mind he could have done so after the Tower. Dalinar feared a civil war, this is true but him ignoring the assassination attempt just seems wrong. My thoughts also are Dalinar withhold when it came to Sadeas, because he still sees him as a friend, but maybe this perception is wrong.

I agree Dalinar couldn't have predicted Adolin accidentally meeting up with Sadeas, but it feels to me Sadeas should have been dealt with by the time he meets up with Adolin. How come he gets away with murdering 6000 soldiers, betraying an ally at a time of war, threatening the king, trying to assassinate another Highprince and never have to deal with any retribution? I mean, at some point, Dalinar not doing anything truly gets grating and while he couldn't have known about Adolin's later actions, Sadeas should have nonetheless been dealt with. Did Dalinar think Sadeas would stop right here and there? Doesn't he care for the people dying each time he fails to remove the threat? 

7 hours ago, Jingpoo said:

I have lurked for years and do not normally post.  Dalinar is a Stoneward Bondsmith and not a Skybreaker.  His oath is to unite and not divide.  Therefore, I believe that he will see that punishing Adolin harshly will not only cause his family ruin, but cause a fracture among the Radiants.   All Radiants or Surgebinders known to him at this time either care for Adolin greatly or despise Sadeas, so I believe that it is safe to hypothesize that this will be a major internal conflict for Dalinar.  While Dalinar will be pushed by the High Princes to seek justice for Sadeas’s murder, Dalinar will choose to unite the Knights Radiant instead.  Everything that Dalinar has done to this point was to unite Alethkar, but the scope of his vision has changed by the end of WoR.  All of Roshar is in danger, plus eventually Dalinar must find out why Gavilar was assassinated in the first place.

I also do not believe that Adolin is the traitor to which the quote is referencing.  One we have no clue who the others are in this case.  As someone stated earlier it could very well be one of the Unmade.   I believe it could also be referencing one of the orders in its entirety.   But my hunch is that it is one of the orders of Voidbringing.  I believe that the Stormfather said Odium might be able to be defeated if he were to promote a Champion.   I think that the traitor will be Eshonai.  No proof just fancy.

This is a fair point. It has been stated in the past. Going harsh on Adolin may give Dalinar some brownie points with some Highprinces, but it might alienate him other people. My latest thoughts are his next oath will have to do with not forcing people to unite. In shorts, if someone refuses the unity and causes the division, then he has to be dealt with, not allow to continue or something along those lines.

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

I haven't checked my book in a while, so I will keep a hinge of doubt about my answer, but didn't they identify the culprit as member of the Sadeas's princedom?

Kaladin recognized him as a worker from Sadeas' lumberyard right before he threw the lever on the bridge. 

I don't think it ever said if Kaladin later shared this fact or not. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

I haven't checked my book in a while, so I will keep a hinge of doubt about my answer, but didn't they identify the culprit as member of the Sadeas's princedom? Dalinar definitely has the right to call Sadeas out for it and demand a duel, mind he could have done so after the Tower. Dalinar feared a civil war, this is true but him ignoring the assassination attempt just seems wrong. My thoughts also are Dalinar withhold when it came to Sadeas, because he still sees him as a friend, but maybe this perception is wrong.

I agree Dalinar couldn't have predicted Adolin accidentally meeting up with Sadeas, but it feels to me Sadeas should have been dealt with by the time he meets up with Adolin. How come he gets away with murdering 6000 soldiers, betraying an ally at a time of war, threatening the king, trying to assassinate another Highprince and never have to deal with any retribution? I mean, at some point, Dalinar not doing anything truly gets grating and while he couldn't have known about Adolin's later actions, Sadeas should have nonetheless been dealt with. Did Dalinar think Sadeas would stop right here and there? Doesn't he care for the people dying each time he fails to remove the threat? 

I can understand the frustration, but I think you are underestimating  how hard it is for Dalinar to deal with Sadeas. Dalinar never had proof for anything (I still think the assassin wouldn't have been enough). Without proof, he couldn't have pinned Sadeas down in a duel. I get the frustration over Dalinar not doing anything, but I simply think that there was very little he could do.

I also think that after deciding to leave for Narak, Dalinar severely underestimated Sadeas as a threat. If he won at Narak, the war would be over. If he lost, he would be dead anyway. This might have been a mistake on his part.

[+Extesian he/him]

I think the most important point is narrative. I hated Dalinar doing nothing about that slimy cremling but he took no action because he wanted to unite. It was about a greater philosophy, which linked to a greater goal. Without that philosophy, I think Dalinar would not be a Bondsmith. Thank the Heralds his boy did what he both couldn't and shouldn't do. 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Calderis said:

Kaladin recognized him as a worker from Sadeas' lumberyard right before he threw the lever on the bridge. 

I don't think it ever said if Kaladin later shared this fact or not. 

This is inline with my recollections. I see no reasons why Kaladin didn't share this fact with Dalinar. There were two weeks in between Kaladin's return and the army leaving for Narak.

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I can understand the frustration, but I think you are underestimating  how hard it is for Dalinar to deal with Sadeas. Dalinar never had proof for anything (I still think the assassin wouldn't have been enough). Without proof, he couldn't have pinned Sadeas down in a duel. I get the frustration over Dalinar not doing anything, but I simply think that there was very little he could do.

I also think that after deciding to leave for Narak, Dalinar severely underestimated Sadeas as a threat. If he won at Narak, the war would be over. If he lost, he would be dead anyway. This might have been a mistake on his part.

Dalinar can be short-sighted and I do think he made a mistake. Even after they had won Narak, he still did no do anything about Sadeas. By the time Adolin kills Sadeas, more than three weeks have elapsed, three weeks throughout which Dalinar's internal counsel never broached the subject of Sadeas, of his treachery, of his assassination attempt. They all made it as if Sadeas didn't matter anymore, as if he had been dealt with, but he wasn't.

This was a serious mistake. Of course, it might be there wasn't much Dalinar could have done, but if they had been a plan, Adolin wouldn't have snapped. It is the void, the absence of ability to deal with the situation, combined with many other things, which threw him over the edge. In the end, by not doing anything about Sadeas (and yet do something about Amaram who is not threatening just to secure Kaladin's loyalty), Dalinar has created occasions for Sadeas to attempt to his family once again.

The victim this time wasn't him, but his son.

3 hours ago, Extesian said:

I think the most important point is narrative. I hated Dalinar doing nothing about that slimy cremling but he took no action because he wanted to unite. It was about a greater philosophy, which linked to a greater goal. Without that philosophy, I think Dalinar would not be a Bondsmith. Thank the Heralds his boy did what he both couldn't and shouldn't do. 

You can't force unity. Dalinar also made his entire coming out on how uniting as he once did is wrong. By force. You can't force it. Hence, Dalinar cannot force Sadeas to unite himself with him. If he won't, if he becomes the man destroying the unity, then he has to go. This was Dalinar's mistake: thinking he needed Sadeas, thinking his oaths included Sadeas. They didn't. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 8/4/2017 at 11:37 PM, Skyline said:

There are 10 orders of Knights, following the theme means there is likely to be one that is somehow set apart from the others.

So... Dustbringer,

This is what I agree with. I feel that the Dustbringers will be the ones that are more set apart, given their "reputation" that Skyline that you pointed out on page 1.

On 8/5/2017 at 0:01 AM, Skyline said:

Also, we already have an Edgedancer. Do you think Brandon is going to start doubling up main characters? I don't see him putting Adolin second after Lift.

We know that we will hear an earlier oath from another Windrunner at some point(to demonstrate that it's the sentiment more than the exact words), and we also know that some Orders had membership in the low thousands back in the old days(probably KR+Squires, but my point stands) If Brandon wanted one of each, he'd be remaking the Heralds instead of reforming the KR. I don't know about "main characters" specifically, but that also depends on your definition of main character.

He could also double up in.. book 7 or so, since that wouldn't be "right after" Lift.

On 8/5/2017 at 0:16 AM, Calderis said:

Spoiler

The fact that Skybreakers exist as an order means they betrayed the others. 

Edgedancer Spoilers

Spoiler

One does not equal the other. The fact that they are a modestly large, organized group does not mean that this couldn't have happened recently.

Nalan has been hunting down Surgebinders. Given his recruitment of Szeth, might he have also been collecting Skybreakers?
He's the Herald of Justice, the Lord of Laws. He could just as easily be the source of their organization as a proper "Order," rather than a simple group.

On 8/5/2017 at 0:06 AM, StormblessDave said:

So true, after Adolin and Elhokar theories, I wont be surprised to see navani radiancy theories popping up lol

There shouldn't be. Navani has a niche in the story already. She is the Head Artifabrian, and serves as Brandon's easy way to roll out new Fabrial-Tech in the future. She doesn't need to be a Radiant to be important/involved in the major story.

On 8/5/2017 at 0:43 AM, aemetha said:

Why is it assumed that this refers to the Radiants at all? That particular passage appears in the book of the 2nd desk drawer, the previous two passages of which discuss the unmade, and then goes on to say they need to discuss the needs of kingship.

I think given the context the reference probably refers to rulers or the unmade. The heralds is a possibility and there are two strong contenders for that, Ishar who seems to have deceived Nalan intentionally or otherwise, and Taln who didn't make the same choice as the other heralds (through no fault of his own) and can therefore be seen as a traitor to them, though not a traitor to the Oathpact or Roshar.

It shouldn't be about the Unmade because the traitor line is twelve paragraphs later. Taravangian changed the subject away from the Unmade in paragraph 15, and mentions the traitor in paragraph 27. I personally have never liked the "traitor line refers to the Heralds" theories, ever.

I don't think it's about the Radiants(not entirely set against it though), but that's probably the logic people are using to link it to the Heralds. In the absence of those first two options, what else is really left?

Edited September 14, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Bridge Boy]

As interested as I am in Adolin's (he is my favorite) story arc, does it not make much better sense if Kaladin is the traitor? Couldn't the combination  of his sense of honor, need to protect the weak, and penchant for anger lead him to become an embodiment of rage considering that within a desolation the weak will be those that suffer the most? Additionally, Syl does appear to have grey area in her sense of honor in relation to her proximity to the oppressed party. I guess what I am trying to get at is; in times of war how can honor exist within so much grey area, wouldn't the pursuit of honor in a desolation lead to madness and rage? Let me know what you think.