How to get your body back [SH, BoM spoilers]

[Calderis he/him]

@hwiles I accept your interpretation and agree to disagree. 

I don't believe that the Cognitive aspect is immune to harm. But it is functionally immortal. 

It is what goes beyond though. It is what we think of as the soul. If the Cognitive aspect were to physically manifest and be killed, I don't believe there would be anything left to go beyond. I think that that would be true death. Full stop

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@hwiles I accept your interpretation and agree to disagree. 

I don't believe that the Cognitive aspect is immune to harm. But it is functionally immortal. 

It is what goes beyond though. It is what we think of as the soul. If the Cognitive aspect were to physically manifest and be killed, I don't believe there would be anything left to go beyond. I think that that would be true death. Full stop

Fair enough, also, is that a True Blood reference, or just a coincidence?  

The last point I'll argue is that, while the cognitive aspect might be what most people in real-life would think of as the "soul," according to realmatic theory, it is much less significant.  The spiritual aspect would probably be a better contender for the status of "soul," but even that is somewhat unclear.  As long as a Cognitive Shadow's spiritual aspect isn't destroyed, their soul should still make it to the beyond.  Even if their spiritual aspect was destroyed, which I'm not sure actually makes sense, they still might have a soul independent of their manifestation in each of the 3 realms.

Since we're never going to get an answer about what exactly The Beyond is, we'll probably never get clear answers to these points, so I suppose it's all rather moot...

[Calderis he/him]

5 minutes ago, hwiles said:

Fair enough, also, is that a True Blood reference, or just a coincidence?  

The last point I'll argue is that, while the cognitive aspect might be what most people in real-life would think of as the "soul," according to realmatic theory, it is much less significant.  The spiritual aspect would probably be a better contender for the status of "soul," but even that is somewhat unclear.  As long as a Cognitive Shadow's spiritual aspect isn't destroyed, their soul should still make it to the beyond.  Even if their spiritual aspect was destroyed, which I'm not sure actually makes sense, they still might have a soul independent of their manifestation in each of the 3 realms.

Since we're never going to get an answer about what exactly The Beyond is, we'll probably never get clear answers to these points, so I suppose it's all rather moot...

It was coincidence. 

I still disagree. Both the physical and spiritual aspects leave behind corpses of a sort. We've seen the Cognitive aspect leave to the beyond and it transitions fully. 

Expanding the Cognitive is what anchors a person against the pull of the Beyond. 

I fully believe that the Cognitive is the true self, and the other aspects are the auxiliaries required for Cosmeric existence 

[+Extesian he/him]

@Calderis I can't remember if we discussed it but what of Returned? When they give away their Divine Breath do you think they stick around in the Cognitive Realm? Or that the Divine Breath constitutes part of their Cognitive Shadow and giving it away means they're voluntarily giving away what holds them together?

Actually I think we have discussed this and I thought the latter, and I'm assuming you agreed I'm just playing Odium's advocate

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, Extesian said:

@Calderis I can't remember if we discussed it but what of Returned? When they give away their Divine Breath do you think they stick around in the Cognitive Realm? Or that the Divine Breath constitutes part of their Cognitive Shadow and giving it away means they're voluntarily giving away what holds them together?

Actually I think we have discussed this and I thought the latter, and I'm assuming you agreed I'm just playing Odium's advocate

We did discuss it. And came to two possibilities. Either the divine breath isn't truly integrated into their Cognitive aspect, they give it up and they go beyond.... 

Or they literally sacrifice themselves as a part of their gift. 

I find the sacrifice makes their choice to Return more compelling and gives a valid reason as to why someone would turn down Endowment's offer and go Beyond. 

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

32 minutes ago, Calderis said:

.......

I fully believe that the Cognitive is the true self, and the other aspects are the auxiliaries required for Cosmeric existence 

So...When Jasnah soulcasts people...she's destroying their souls...?  That hardly seems fair.

I feel like the mechanics of hemalurgy imply that the Cognitive aspect isn't the main component of the soul in the Cosmere as well, but I'm having trouble articulating why.  I'll chime back in if something coherent comes to mind...

[Calderis he/him]

5 minutes ago, hwiles said:

So...When Jasnah soulcasts people...she's destroying their souls...?  That hardly seems fair.

I hadn't even considered soulcasting. 

That's... Wow. 

[cometaryorbit]

On 7/19/2017 at 5:22 PM, Calderis said:

If the Cognitive aspect were to physically manifest and be killed, I don't believe there would be anything left to go beyond. I think that that would be true death. Full stop

I think it would be analogous to (major WOR spoilers)

Spoiler

 

dead Shardblades. They're Cognitive beings - spren - that physically manifested and died in the Physical Realm. They don't go Beyond, but they're not completely annihilated either, and it's possible (though really hard if the original KR died) to return them to life.

Syl has some quote (in WOR) about how when spren die it's like breaking a rock, they're broken but the pieces are still there and can be put back together, and humans are the weird ones because death is irreversible for us.

 

--

I think death fixes most forms of magically-induced damage so they won't prevent the person passing Beyond. Dead koloss show up in the Cognitive realm as people, even though Hemalurgy has massively messed up their soul. I'd think being killed by a shardblade or Nightblood would make a person pass Beyond faster (reduce your lingering-time in the Cognitive) but not actually destroy the part of them that goes Beyond.

Soulcasting is probably similar. I doubt Soulcasting somebody into a fire that then goes out totally erases them from the Cognitive and Spiritual realms.

Edited July 21, 2017 by cometaryorbit
Stormlight spoilers

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

I actually see Kell transitioning to the physical realm as similar to a spren. Except that instead of a nahel bond he has a spike. The spike connects him to the physical realm and he can enter it through a Shard pool.

Spren become more physically present as the Nahel bond gets stronger. Kell's spike grants an even stronger connection so he becomes physical upon entering the physical realm. Despite this he remains a Cognitive being. (Specifically, I think he would see Spren as they appear on the Cognitive plain, not on the physical.) He would have enough of a body to use the Allomantic (and Feruchemical) arts.

If someone could ask Brandon if Kell's new body is fully functional that would be a great bit of information!

Getting back to my theory... Remove the spike and he gets stuck between realms, which is what I believe happens to 'dead' shardblades. The spike could be safely removed in the Cognitive realm. So removing it doesn't 'kill' him; arguably, it's worse. 'Killing' Kelsier on the physical plane would have the same effect as a Spren's radiant dying; he'd be launched back into the Cognitive realm. He can be killed in the Cognitive. Damage in the physical realm would reflect back on his Cognitive image. He can be hurt here because his connection is MUCH stronger than a nahel bond.

I don't believe he'd age, but that's for a different reason. Kell's soul 'knows' he died at 38, so it tries to keep him there. Sort of a reverse LR situation. Or, possibly, I just love the idea that the best way to become immortal is to die...

[Calderis he/him]

From Pagerunner's Reddit WoB collection # 670 relevant section bolded for emphasis. 

Quote

Q: How the heck old is Kriss then? Will we ever get an answer as to why every worldhopper is flipin immortal?
 
A: There is some time-dialation going on. I'll explain it eventually; we're almost to the point where I can start talking about that. Suffice it to say that there's a mix of both actual slowing of the aging process and relative time going on, depending on the individual. Very few are actually immortal.
 
Q: Implying that some are actually immortal?
 
A: Depends on which definition of immortal you mean.
Doesn't age, but can be killed by conventional means. (You've seen some of these in the cosmere, but I'll leave you to discuss who.)
Heals from wounds, but still ages. (Knights Radiant with Stormlight are like this.)
Reborn when killed. (The Heralds.)
Doesn't age and can heal, but dependent upon magic to stay this way, and so have distinct weakness to be exploited. (The Lord Ruler, among others.)
Hive beings who are constantly losing individual members, but maintaining a persistent personality spread across all of them, immortal in that as long as too much of the hive isn't wiped out, the personality can persist. (The sleepless.)
Bits of sapient magic, eternal and endless, though the personality can be "destroyed" in specific ways. (Seons. Spren. Nightblood. Cognitive Shadows, like a certain character from Scadrial.)
Shards (Really just a supercharged version of the previous category.)
And then, of course, there's Hoid. I'm not going to say which category, if any, he's in.
Some of these blend together--the Heralds, for example, are technically a variety of cognitive shadow. I'm not saying each of these categories above are distinct, intended to be the end-all definitions. They're off the cuff groupings I made to explain a point: immortality is a theme of the cosmere works--which, at their core, are experiments on what happens when men are given the power of deity.
 

So "dying" again isn't really a possibility for Kel. 

He can have his personality destroyed. He could be "trapped between realms" like a spren. But he will never again be a mortal just by regaining a tie to the physical.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

When I said 'killed in the Cognitive Realm' I meant being forced into the Beyond, which Ruin almost does in SH. Which, for a Cognitive being, would probably equate to having their personality destroyed.

[Calderis he/him]

@hwiles after finally reading the Boskone transcript, I have to revise my opinion in agreement with you. I think all Kelsier needs is a connection to the Physical Realm and not an entirely new body. 

Here's the question and answer that changed my mind. Spoilered for both length, and SA content. 

Quote

113:15] (Bromo_Sapien’s questions) What happens to physical body when you travel to Shadesmar.  

Q: When somebody travels into the cognitive realm, what happens to their physical self? To their body? Like Elsecalling or through a Shardpool?

A: Um, well it depends on the way they’re doing it. The two ways you’ve mentioned transport the physical body. It’s actually creating a rift and slipping them through. But there are other ways that you kind of peek in, where you’re body’s saying it’s a little more astral projection-y in those cases.

Q: So their physical self would also be in the cognitive realm?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay.

A: Which is weird.

Q: Yeah.

A: But yes, um...

Q: As opposed to somebody like Kelsier who died and no longer has a physical self.

A: Yes, right. Or when Shallan is soulcasting and peeking in, and things like this. Like… Um… It can still be dangerous, because what’s happening is that little soul bubble there that’s manifesting into a version of your soul and then things can get at it in different ways and stuff. So... But yes, going in physically means you just pop between realms, and yeah, yeah…

Q: And when they leave the cognitive realm their physical self just leaves the cognitive realm the same...

A: Yep, mhm, yep.

Q: Perfect.

A: Basically you’re transferring into investiture and popping out of investiture, so...

 

[Nathrangking he/him]

Perhaps all we need then is something akin to say magic bands.  

[Calderis he/him]

52 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

Perhaps all we need then is something akin to say magic bands.  

Doubtful. He's attributed as responsible for their creation. Seeing as while he was a shadow he didn't even have access to his Allomancy, he'd have to have reestablished his connection to the Physical before he could be involved in making them. 

[Nathrangking he/him]

Or perhaps as I am sure has been theorized marsh's spike may be in play.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Nathrangking

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

@hwiles after finally reading the Boskone transcript, I have to revise my opinion in agreement with you. I think all Kelsier needs is a connection to the Physical Realm and not an entirely new body. 

Here's the question and answer that changed my mind. Spoilered for both length, and SA content. 

 

That's wild, I definitely hadn't seen that before. What's funny is that more and more I've been coming around to the mistwraith-hijacking idea as I feel like it has a better chance of explaining where Kels feruchemy comes from. (Mistwraiths were created from full-feruchemists using the power at the Well; logically, I would think Ruin's power, and therefore possibly hemalurgy, could theoretically change one back.)

Still feels slightly too convoluted to me though. Granted, my "Marsh's spike" theory isn't earning any simple-elegance awards.

[Ethan_sedai he/him]

Remember in BoM when MeLaan heals Marasi by eating a bit and then using that genetic code to fix up the rest of her? Could Since TenSoon knew his genetic code, could he have eaten a bunch of rotten meat or something like that, and made a "blank slate" body around Kelsier's old bones, replicating the one that used to be there, and then pulling back into another body, leaving a repaired corpse for Kelsier to go into? He probably still needed the spike because the new body was new instead of being just his old body fixed up, like harmony did. With this method, he literally could have spiked his cognitive aspect into his body. 

I might be wrong about what Kandra can and can't do, but from what we've seen, it might be possible (?)

The reason I like this theory is that there is not a Kandra that needs to die, and Harmony would not have any problems with it.

what do you guys think? would it work? or is there a flaw in my logic somewhere?

Edited October 17, 2017 by ethan_sedai

[Jondesu he/him]

On 9/29/2017 at 7:52 PM, ethan_sedai said:

Remember in BoM when MeLaan heals Marasi by eating a bit and then using that genetic code to fix up the rest of her? Could Since TenSoon knew his genetic code, could he have eaten a bunch of rotten meat or something like that, and made a "blank slate" body around Kelsier's old bones, replicating the one that used to be there, and then pulling back into another body, leaving a repaired corpse for Kelsier to go into? He probably still needed the spike because the new body was new instead of being just his old body fixed up, like harmony did. With this method, he literally could have spiked his cognitive aspect into his body. 

I might be wrong about what Kandra can and can't do, but from what we've seen, it might be possible (?)

The reason I like this theory is that there is not a Kandra that needs to die, and Harmony would not have any problems with it.

what do you guys think? would it work? or is there a flaw in my logic somewhere?

That's actually surprisingly plausible, and I say surprising since I haven't seen anyone else mention it (though I haven't been on this part of the forums much for a little while).  I'd never have thought about it, but it seems very doable. I guess the question is whether TenSoon really "remembers" Kelsier's DNA after that long, but I suspect he could.

[Shqueeves]

On 9/29/2017 at 5:52 PM, ethan_sedai said:

Remember in BoM when MeLaan heals Marasi by eating a bit and then using that genetic code to fix up the rest of her? Could Since TenSoon knew his genetic code, could he have eaten a bunch of rotten meat or something like that, and made a "blank slate" body around Kelsier's old bones, replicating the one that used to be there, and then pulling back into another body, leaving a repaired corpse for Kelsier to go into? He probably still needed the spike because the new body was new instead of being just his old body fixed up, like harmony did. With this method, he literally could have spiked his cognitive aspect into his body. 

I might be wrong about what Kandra can and can't do, but from what we've seen, it might be possible (?)

The reason I like this theory is that there is not a Kandra that needs to die, and Harmony would not have any problems with it.

what do you guys think? would it work? or is there a flaw in my logic somewhere?

TenSoon never actually ate any of Kelsier's flesh. The closest to that happening is when he has Kelsier's bones in HoA

[Ethan_sedai he/him]

On 10/30/2017 at 9:51 AM, Shqueeves said:

TenSoon never actually ate any of Kelsier's flesh. The closest to that happening is when he has Kelsier's bones in HoA

Good point, I hadn't noticed that! have an upvote! 

Also, I just realized, the Kandra have holes in their memories because they removed their spikes temporarily, so even if he had, I'm not sure how well it would work... He could just do what he did when he had Kelsier's bones, and replicate Kelsier's body from the bones, maybe? since it would all be made with the same DNA, would the DNA matter since it wouldn't reject itself? or would his spirit reject it? Does anyone know if his sDNA would somehow reject his physical DNA or not?

edit: I don't think it would matter, because hemalurgy definitely has an effect on the Physical realm; it seems like koloss have a different DNA than a human does.

also, it seems like I killed this thread. 

Edited December 21, 2017 by ookla the aes sedai