Rebuilding (Dominion/Devotion)

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

So, about a week ago, I posted a theory about Raoden holding the Dual-Shard of Devotion and Dominion, which I'm fairly sure has been shut down, though I think it could possibly still happen. Here I want to discuss the process of rebuilding a splintered shard. It includes a minor theory as to how the splintering of those two shards happened.

As a side note, up till now I've been referring to a Dominion/Devotion blend as Benevolence. I'm not longer sure. Maybe Mastery? I'd chosen Benevolence, because that was the Devotion/Dominion blend I saw in AonDor and Raoden, but after looking at all of the Selish magic systems, I think Mastery applies more. Devotion to developing the system so as to get greater Dominion. At the same time, it might depend on how this shard was created. Ruin and Preservation became Harmony under Sazed, but could have become something else under different circumstances. At least, I think I remember a WoB saying that Ruin+Preservation could have become Contention, or some other equivalent.

 

To begin, here is what I believe to Dominion and Devotion (I think it is mostly head-cannon, though there is some WoB support): Odium killed the two vessels, separated the investiture from the shards and shoved it into the CR (forming the Dor, then splintered what was left of the shard into as many pieces as he could, which were then scattered. These pieces slowly gained consciousness, and became the Seons and Skaze that we see on Sel. This is based on a couple WoBs. One that says that shards without vessels will try to get a vessel, or will slowly reform a consciousness. And another one confirming that the Seons/Skaze are splinters of Devotion/Dominion respectively.

So, I see a few processes that would work to recombine these shards.

1. Compressing Seons and Skaze to kill them and picking up the remaining power. If pressing Preservation and Ruin up against each other kills the two different vessels (see Vin and Ati's deaths) because they are opposite, then I think that compressing a Seon and a Skaze together would kill them both, leaving behind the shard pieces from each. Left alone, they would reform into a Seon and a Skaze. However, someone who was attuned to both Dominion and Devotion (like how Sazed was attuned to both Preservation and Ruin) was nerby, that person might be able to draw in the splinters. Do this enough times and you'd ascend. There would still be splinters, but once you ascended, it would be easier to regain the other pieces. Once you have the Shards reunited, but with the Investiture still in the CR, then I think the new dual-shard (Mastery/Benevolence) would be able to go to the CR and scoop it back up. It hasn't happened because since the Dor was made, there hasn't ever been enough shard splinters together with a consciousness for it to do so. 

2. Merging Seons and Skaze pair by pair, then merging the different pairs into one. However, if compressing a Seon and a Skaze doesn't kill them, but instead merges them, then you could create a ton of splinters of Mastery/Benevolence, in the which each splinter has equal parts Dominion and Devotion. Once most of the splinters have been turned from Seons/Skaze into the new dual-splinter, then you could take the new splinters and merge them together, thus forming a Shard. Unlike the last one, it doesn't involve a human becoming a vessel, but instead relies on the consciousness that a shard makes if left alone. However, the process of reclaiming the Dor would be very similar to that of step 1.

3. Merging each shard individually. However, if you can't merge Seons and Skaze at all, then you might need to use a more roundabout method. I'd attempt to find a way to combine two Seons into one, and two Skaze into one. Over time, you'd end up with the two shard back, without the portion of their investiture that is locked in the Dor. Here it is more complex. The investiture in the Dor is equal parts Dominion and Devotion. However, that power is merged. I suspect that you'd need a temporary alliance between Devotion and Dominion where they work together to separate the Dor into their respective pieces. Then, if you wanted to merge them, you'd have the Vin suicide assault and a new vessel taking both (HoA plot all over again). Or if you want things simpler, use the suicide assault first, then reclaim the Dor as a single piece.

 

Mastery or Benevolence. If you use method 1, then which one came out would depend on who the new vessel was. Take someone like Raoden, and I think you'd get Benevolence. Take someone like Wan ShaiLu, and you'd get something closer to Mastery. Method 2 would probably yield Mastery. And Method 3 Would yeild the seperate shards, which if killed and merged a la Sazed, would have the same result as method 1.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Not bad. I'll still go for Sovereignty or Unity, but as you say, it depends on who the vessel is.

12 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

splintered what was left into as many pieces as he could, which were then scattered. These pieces slowly gained consciousness, becoming the Seons and Skaze.

This I will argue, as I feel that Odium would have tossed D&D into the CR in their entirety if he could have. I think that splintering actually transcends the barriers between Realms, with pieces "falling" into the PR/CR, leading to Seons/Skaze/Spren. Odium is on a deadline to escape without becoming Invested in the system, so he doesn't search for those last little snippets, thinking them inconsequential enough to ignore(or not knowing they happen, thinking they are in the CR and will get absorbed by the Dor, etc.. take your pick)

17 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

1. Compressing Seons and Skaze to kill them and picking up the remaining power.

Absorbing D&D one bloody piece at a time huh? Can't really refute, as absorbing all the splinters first is a popular "reform Honor" idea that hasn't really been shot down yet.

19 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

2. Merging Seons and Skaze pair by pair, then merging the different pairs into one. 

Turn Splinters of D&D into Splinters of Unity/mastery/whatever, and then going up the ladder. You could rebuild Adonalsium like this if you really tried. I like this method better, despite wanting a scene of someone taming the Dor storm.

23 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

3. Merging each shard individually.  [...]  temporary alliance between Devotion and Dominion where they work together to separate the Dor into their respective pieces. Then, if you wanted to merge them, you'd have the Vin suicide assault and a new vessel taking both (HoA plot all over again).

Why split the Dor at all? You'd obviously need to have someone who can absorb D&D for this plan to work, so you can cut out the middlemen entirely and have that person absorb the merged D&D(Dor as a whole) right out the gate. It's faster than splitting the Dor, and you don't condemn your temp Devotion and Dominion Vessels to death with a suicide assault.

[Calderis he/him]

29 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Devotion to developing the system so as to get greater Dominion.

The main problem I see here is that Brandon has stated he uses Devotion as a synonym for love, so dedication is not enough. These are from when people were trying to figure out the names of Sel's Shards. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=699#6

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=698#2

Quote

Does Aona = Love or Compassion?

BRANDON SANDERSON

"You have it, it's just a synonym there. You basically have it

PUCK

"Does Skai = Devotion or Order?"

BRANDON SANDERSON

"You're not on there. But you are on on the first one [Aona]."

Quote

CHAOS

So Aona is a synonym for love, hmm? Is Charity the correct Shard name?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Not quite. I'm trying to remember what the guesses were for the other Shard on Sel. I may have dismissed them too quickly.

CHAOS

How about Mercy for Aona, then? The guesses for Skai's Shard include Devotion, Obedience, and Order.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Okay, I was right, then. Ha There's something very ironic in all of this.

As far as the plan itself... I think it's a great method, anywhere but Sel. You gather and combine the splinters of a broken shard, and take up their power. 

I think the problem with picking up the Shards on Sel though, is that their power has been removed from the Spiritual realm. Normally after a certain point of accumulation you could reach out to the remaining mass in the Spiritual and take up the remaining power. 

The Dor though, isn't in the Spiritual Realm, you would have to actually gather all of it. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

10 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The Dor though, isn't in the Spiritual Realm, you would have to actually gather all of it. 

Not necessarily. Once you reach critical mass and ascend (probably be half-done, enough to constitute a Shard), then it becomes much easier.

Odium moved all that Investiture into the CR himself, did he not? I see no reason another Shard couldn't just take that power back out if they so chose.

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

@The One Who Connects @Calderis

OK, so the gist of the theory is that you can't break an object's link to the Spiritual realm. Anything that could be Forged would need to have it. From what I can see, the Seons/Skaze exist in all three realms. Physical is obvious, but they also have a cognitive element, especially considering they have a mind (this seems obvious to me) and that the draw on the Dor to some extent (something is fueling them. Plus, the Seons have AONS in them). I wouldn't be surprised if they are also connected to the Spiritual. So, what I think happened is that Odium realized he couldn't completely destroy a shard, but he could splinter it even farther, from 16th of Adonalsium to 1/1000 (for example). However, these pieces would still be powerful. So what does he do? He kills the vessels, takes the power which he makes inaccessible directly by putting it in the CR, then splinters what is left of the shard. Thus the Seons and Skaze don't have a huge amount of Investiture, and don't have enough Shardness to ascend completely. They become almost like humans in their control over the three realms. This would work well for Odium's purposes if rejoining Seons was a hard thing to do.

As for what the new vessel would be, you might be right about Mastery not being accurate. Thus I go back to Benevolence. How else would you combine Love and Control? It's still largely irrelevant to the discussion though.

And method 3 would yield 1 massive Seon and 1 massive Skaze (IE Devotion and Dominion) individually. If you wanted to mege them, you'd have to do it a la Sazed (IE, kill the vessels and take up the power). If they stay separate though, and don't work together, then they would both be very crippled shards, kinda like Ruin, but with more than just the atium missing. THATs why they would work together.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

3 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

is that you can't break an object's link to the Spiritual realm

Shardblades cut the soul. So you can technically sever the link. Either way, the Dor is physically within the CR.

Investiture has a spiritual, cognitive and physical aspect too, but when not in use(magic systems), all three are contained within the Spiritual Realm. The physical aspect is the one that makes the most difference with collecting something, and the physical aspect of the Dor is in the Cognitive Realm.

[Calderis he/him]

19 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Not necessarily. Once you reach critical mass and ascend (probably be half-done, enough to constitute a Shard), then it becomes much easier.

I'll explain a bit more, because I both agree and disagree. I do think again, it should work that way normally, but with the Dor, I think you need a way to get the investiture back to the Spiritual Realm first. With it in the Cognitive, I think that trying to take up the Dor as it is in the Cognitive Realm would destroy your mind long before you gathered enough to ascend, much like the buildup of Dor attempted to overcome Raoden. 

And @Lord Maelstrom in addition to the point above, I think that relative to the Dor, the Seons and Skaze just simply aren't numerous enough to represent a significant percentage of the Dor to ascend. If they were, I don't think That Odium would have left before dealing with them. 

 

 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

I do think again, it should work that way normally, but with the Dor, I think you need a way to get the investiture back to the Spiritual Realm first. With it in the Cognitive, I think that trying to take up the Dor as it is in the Cognitive Realm would destroy your mind long before you gathered enough to ascend, much like the buildup of Dor attempted to overcome Raoden. 

Fair enough. That's a good point that I hadn't considered. Now to counter with a point I don't think you've ever had cause to consider...

Jury-rig the Pool in Elantris and ascend. Do you think someone utilizing that kind of power could move the Dor back into the SR?

[Calderis he/him]

Just now, The One Who Connects said:

Jury-rig the Pool in Elantris and ascend. Do you think someone utilizing that kind of power could move the Dor back into the SR?

We know that the liquid form is the most potent, and Mistborn spoilers 

Spoiler

Considering what Rashek accomplished with the Well 

It's very possible as long as they can figure it out before they use up the pool. 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

Major Spoilers for the Era1 Mistborn books. If you haven't read them, you have no business reading this stuff.

 

Well, what I'm suggesting is that there is a difference between a Shard and a shard's power. The shard's power is pure investiture. And it has multiple forms. However, the shard itself is that entity flying around doing stuff. We also know that it is possible to take some of the shard's power and separate it from the shard.

You want an example? Take a look at Ruin. Preservation was able to lock the Shard in a place where it didn't have access to it's power. And even after it escaped, it was still missing a good portion of it's power (the atium). Another look? Kelsier took up the Shard of Preservation, but he didn't have access to nearly as much power as Vin did. And I think part of that is that he didn't draw the mist into himself. That is one core difference between their two ascensions: Vin had the shard, as well as the power found within the mists, but didn't have access to the investiture that is in Alomancers (the lerasium). Kelsier however didn't draw in the mists, maybe because his lack of a physical body stopped him. Making him much weaker than Ati. Ati also had access to most of his power, except for his Atium. This is why Vin and Ati were balanced. As for an argument saying that Vin ascended because she drew in the Mists, I think that's only partially right. A human who drew in that much investiture would die from it. However, Kelsier released the shard, allowing Vin to take it up at the same time as she took up the mists. Thus when she was done, not only had she ascended (IE taken up the shard that Kelsier had released) but she also had access to much of the Shard's power.

What I'm saying is that the Dor is the combined investiture of Devotion and Dominion. What was splintered was the shards themselves. So, Odium killed the vessels, locked the investiture (read: power) of the shard into the CR, then took the shard itself and splinter it. The splinters of the shards eventually rebuilt sentience and became Seons and Skaze.

So, if you were to combine the Seons and Skaze, you would ascend. That is what allows you to ascend: The pieces of the shards, not the investiture. Essentially, you would be an even weaker version of ascended Kelsier. However, you would still be a shard, would be able to draw the Dor into yourself, restoring yourself to a full dual shard.

 

Now, If my theory that there is a difference between the Shard and it's power is wrong, then my entire theory falls apart, but I don't tjink I'm wrong. I think there is a real difference between a Shard and it's investiture.

[StrikerEZ he/him]

@Lord Maelstrom Well, the biggest thing you're missing is that the Seons/Skaze make up a very small percentage of the total power of Devotion and Dominion, respectively. Even if you gathered up all of them, the majority of the shards is still in the CR. If you could gather up those, then you could definitely Ascend. But I don't think you'd be able to do it just with the Seons/Skaze.

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

1 minute ago, StrikerEZ said:

@Lord Maelstrom Well, the biggest thing you're missing is that the Seons/Skaze make up a very small percentage of the total power of Devotion and Dominion, respectively. Even if you gathered up all of them, the majority of the shards is still in the CR. If you could gather up those, then you could definitely Ascend. But I don't think you'd be able to do it just with the Seons/Skaze.

I'm saying that you don't the majority of the power, you need the majority of the shard. Combine all of the Seons/Skaze and you would have the entire shard, minus most of it's power. I'm saying that once you have that, you've ascended. Once you've ascended, you can worry about reclaiming your power from the CR. That make sense? I'm saying that even if you had the entirety of the Dor in you (and didn't go mad or die) you wouldn't ascend. Why? Because You'd have the shard's power, but you wouldn't have the shard. It would be like Swallowing all of the Atium, then taking up Ruin's Shardpool, which Ruin is still alive. You'd have his power (if you survived that much investiture), but you wouldn't become Ruin. He already exists. I'm saying that the Dor is the Investiture, and that the Seons/Skaze are the shard. I'm saying that there is a very real difference between the investiture and the shard.

[+hwiles]

@Lord Maelstrom  When Ruin was imprisoned, he wasn't "separated" from his power, Preservation just locked him into a pseudo-infinite loop type of system where everything Ruin tried to do with his power was automatically opposed by Preservation's power.  If Ruin tried to do anything much more significant than fiddle with individual copperminds or talk to individual crazy people/hemalurgists, a wall of Preservation's Investiture would be flung between him and his target, countering him.  I'm not counting the atium that was literally ripped off of him and hidden, which I don't think was what you were referencing.

Kelsier experienced this phenomenon as well because when he took up Preservation,

1. Ruin was, by this point, well-versed in how the two shards' Investiture could block each other, and
2. Ruin was significantly more powerful than Kelsier.  This has something to do with the fact that Kelsier didn't exist at all in the Physical Realm and was a cognitive shadow.  I can't remember the exact realmatic explanation, but for some reason being dead made Kelsier an extra weak shard-holder.  His relatively low Connection to Preservation may have also been a factor, can't remember off the top of my head.

As to your overarching idea of reconstructing D&D from the Dor, I think the theory has some merit, but it has to struggle against a fundamental aspect of Investiture: The natural tendency to spread out and evolve.  Reassembling D&D would presumably drain/destroy the Dor, which is by far the most interesting thing about Sel and the reason it has so many interesting magic systems.  Any native of Sel who was capable of such a feat, possessing the necessary Connections would, during their ascension, have to face a terrible truth:

Absorbing D&D would fundamentally change how magic works across Sel in unpredictable ways and almost certainly devastate all levels of human society around the planet.  The first act of the Shard of Benevolence would therefore have to be to one of Disdain and/or Callousness (which would be like Preservation burning ants with a magnifying glass...)  I suspect that Odium was comfortable leaving the Investiture on Sel in its current state because, after due consideration, he believed it could not be reassembled back into a Shard short of extraordinary intervention by forces outside the system.

I think of it like this:

The shards have been splintered, placing them at a lower and more stable state of potential.  Recombining them would require a massive influx of energy.  A good analogy would be a mountain that had been exploded into gravel and spread uniformly over the surface of a continent.  Strictly speaking, the kinetic energy released from the mountain's detonation is exactly enough to reconstruct it back into a mountain, however, without an additional investment of energy from an outside source, reconstructing the mountain is impractical beyond reason and arguably impossible; IE: some of the energy from the explosion will be so transformed from its initial state that it is easier to replace than to recover.

[Pattern he/him]

I like the idea of Rebuilding. What is not clear for me yet is the mechanism to absorb the splinters of a shard. For example would the mixed Investiture of a skaze and a seon always have to mix the same way? We know that the merging of two shards is not unambiguous, so I would assume the same to be true for splinters of the shards.

Another thing I see as a problem is the identity of seons and skaze. They are not pure Investiture anymore but they have gained sentience so they should be viewed as individuals and not just as a certain amount of Investiture. Merging them together successively conjures the picture of a Siamese multiplet with another head for each newly added skaze/seon.

So this would only leave method 1 (or another entirely): Kill skaze and seons pairwise and collect the Investiture set free in the process. I doubt that you could call a Shard that has been constructed this way "Benevolence" without sarcasm.

Still, the amount of Investiture in the Physical Realm as Skaze and Seons on Sel should be small compared to the Dor in the Cognitive Realm. And there we hit the problem of the nature of a Shard. What makes a Shard of Adonalsium a Shard? Is it just Investiture with a certain Intent (gained sentience since Investiture tends to gain sentience on its own) or is the Sentience with its Intent separate from the Investiture with the Investiture being the fuel to empower the Sentience? Does a Shard need a Vessel at all? We know that the Vessel is warped by the Intent of the Shard over time, depending on his/her strenght of will, but ultimately the Shard's Intent will rule supreme. So what is the Vessel for?

My attempt for an answer to this question is this: A Shard transcends all three realms, usually the main part of the Investiture is in the Spiritual Realm though (making the associated magic location-independent). The Vessel could be the anchor of the Shard in the Physical Realm, giving the Shard the possibility to interact there in a significant way. This could be supported by the fact that Kelsier as Cognitive Shadow without a body in the PR was a bad vessel for Preservation, being easily interrupted by Ruin. Unfortunately there are other facts that could be the reason for Kelsier being a bad Vessel for Preservation (only small Connection to Preservation, conflict of Intents, etc.), so this is no real proof that a physical body of a vessel increases the power of a Shard in the PR.

Aona and Skai are dead, that is the Vessels of D&D are no more, so D&D lack the physical anchor. Odium splintered D&D, pulled them out of the Spiritual Realm and stuffed the pieces of Investiture into the Cognitive Realm where they are anything but calm (i envision this as a hot water/oil mixture unter pressure). Seons and Skaze in this picture would be leftover pieces of Investiture in the Physical Realm having gained sapience or artificial constructs made by Elantrians (the aons in them as a program). I don't think that with merging all Seons you would get Devotion (Sapience+Intent) back. The Intent is still tied to the Investiture, but the Sapience of Devotion died with the Splintering. A Vessel collecting the Investiture of all Seon and Skaze could become a Sliver (like Rashek at the Well of Ascension) but would not reach Shard level.

There is a way to travel the CR on Sel, though it is dangerous and needs precautions (as far as I know there are no details on the precautions). So there might be also a way to extract Investiture from the Dor while being in the CR or, safer, to pull Investiture from the CR via an Aon algorithm and store it somewhere in the PR. Reaching Shard status should enable the new Vessel to transcend to the Spiritual Realm and put all that excess Investiture back there, where it belongs.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Pattern

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

OK, so after some WoB hunting, I'm giving up on this theory. The theory was based on the idea that There was a difference between the investiture in the Seons and the investiture of the Dor. And that the Seons/Skaze were the shards, while the Dor was the Shard's power. That falls apart in view of this WoB that addresses this subject specifically: (Spoiler for size)

Spoiler

Quote

QUESTION

So we know that you can’t just have someone--if someone were to do something similar to Hoid, he can’t just pop and go ‘oh look, I can now do Allomancy or now do Surgebinding’. What about Breath? Could somebody give Breath--could they still get the benefits--

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oh, good question. Yes you can, actually. Breath, once it is given to you, it is being keyed to you--your Identity. So that transfer makes it yours to use however you want.

QUESTION

So you could Awaken?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You could Awaken. If you were to somehow make it there, you would be able to Awaken. It’s the easiest of magics to get the magic from, and then to manipulate. Because it has keyed into it Identity.

QUESTION

[garbled]

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, you can take Breath onto another world. In fact, you’ve seen characters do this.

QUESTION

[garbled]

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, it would work the same way. The only magic that is location-dependent-- the ones who aren’t interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? You don’t need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I’ve [written] them so that each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep. So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn’t want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two Intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it’s stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they’re keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection--mostly Connection. So that means you can’t do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they’re drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they’re end-neutral, like Breath is, and don’t need any extra power.

 

Source

 

So. Where I had assumed that the reason the Dor didn't have sentience is because you need something more than just large amounts of investiture to gain sentience, Brandon goes ahead and breaks that.

Now the questions behind this thread becomes: What really is stopping the Dor from attaining sentience? How could you pull the Dor into yourself without dying or going mad? I actually really like the "Use the Shardpool" idea.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Lord Maelstrom

[+hwiles]

How to absorb all the Dor and become a God:

An Elantrian could theoretically draw an aon equation for ascension I would think. With the caveats that it would probably be massive and intricate, a single mistake might destroy the planet, and it would likely incorporate intense alterations to the user's spirit web, including their Identity and Connection, meaning it might deeply change the core of their being.

 My guess is that's ultimately how the IRE made their device to steal Preservation...should work for other shards that lack a holder I would think.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Maybe the investiture doesn't gain sentience because it is a mix of investiture from two different sources with different Intents? And the conflict between them keeps something sentient from forming.

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

Just now, Toaster Retribution said:

Maybe the investiture doesn't gain sentience because it is a mix of investiture from two different sources with different Intents? And the conflict between them keeps something sentient from forming.

Well, there is also a WoB saying that at this point the Dor is a single entity. But what you are saying does make some sense. My problem with it is that I think it would make more sense for it to form a sentience with a very chaotic intent, like Discord, or Conflict, or something to that extent. Maybe Dilemma? I mean, I'm fairly sure there is a WoB saying that Harmony could have become Discord or some other confrontational intent if a different Vessel had taken it up.

[Calderis he/him]

11 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Well, there is also a WoB saying that at this point the Dor is a single entity. But what you are saying does make some sense. My problem with it is that I think it would make more sense for it to form a sentience with a very chaotic intent, like Discord, or Conflict, or something to that extent. Maybe Dilemma? I mean, I'm fairly sure there is a WoB saying that Harmony could have become Discord or some other confrontational intent if a different Vessel had taken it up.

Yeah, I can't find it either, but it basically said that Sazed's view of both intents as natural and necessary resulted in the zen like Harmony, whereas someone who view them as in contention would have created discord (which makes me believe that the intents, while subject to filtration through the Vessels perception, are still limited in nature, as Harmony and Discord are literal opposites). 

I think the only reason it isn't forming sentience is that it's not proportioned normally across the three realms. It is attempting to gain sentience, but because of it's Cognitive location that sentience is developing in the lands that the Dor suffused cognitively, rather than in the investiture itself. 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

31 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

Or,    maybe it has gained sentience, but has multiple personality syndrome due the the conflicting intents.  Then it sits around in the cognitive realm agreeing and fighting with itself....

From Elantris:

Quote

It struck while Raoden was studying. He didn't hear himself gasp in agonized shock, nor did he feel himself tumble from his seat in a spastic seizure. All he felt was the pain - a sharp torment that dropped upon him suddenly and vengefully. It was like a million tiny insects, each one latching on to his body - inside and out - to eat him alive. Soon he felt as if he had no body - the pain was his body. It was the only sense, the only input, and his screams were the only product.
Then he felt it. It stood like an enormous slick surface, without crack or pocket, at the back of his mind. It pressed demandingly, pounding the pain into every nerve of his body, like a workman driving a spike into the ground. It was vast. It made men, mountains, and worlds, seem paltry. It was not evil, or even sentient. It didn't rage, or churn. It was immobile, frozen by its own intense pressure. It wanted to move - to go anywhere, to find any release from the strain. But there was no outlet.

Emphasis mine.

So, this seems to be heavily implying that the Dor does not have sentience. And considering how long the Dor had been in that state when Elantris happened, I don't see the Dor gaining Sentience without something else entering the picture.

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

6 minutes ago, FiveLate said:

Lol I really have to remember to always put sarcasm tags in.

Well, if it wasn't for the passage from Elantris, I think it could have made for a really cool (if wacky) theory. But then, we already have Legion to keep us occupied in that direction.

[+Extesian he/him]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

Yeah, I can't find it either, but it basically said that Sazed's view of both intents as natural and necessary resulted in the zen like Harmony, whereas someone who view them as in contention would have created discord (which makes me believe that the intents, while subject to filtration through the Vessels perception, are still limited in nature, as Harmony and Discord are literal opposites). 

 

Unless there's a specific one for Discord, its this book signing

BRANDON SANDERSON

He wrote: “Harmony could go by another name, if he was not as good at controlling both of the Shards.” 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

20 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Unless there's a specific one for Discord, its this book signing

Best estimate on the Origin Point of the "discord" discussion, thanks to Ookla's sister noticing the Epigraphs.

Quote

He shall defend their ways, yet shall violate them. He will be their savior, yet they shall call him heretic. His name will be Discord, yet they shall love him for it. 

[Calderis he/him]

5 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Best estimate on the Origin Point of the "discord" discussion, thanks to Ookla's sister noticing the Epigraphs.

It may be another case of "I've seen it so many times it must be true" 

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

It may be another case of "I've seen it so many times it must be true" 

Ok not to knock this thread off topic or anything, but 12 hours ago I'm pretty sure you were active on the shard. How much do you even sleep?!