Population of Roshar

[ICanDream]

I'm a bit of a population buff, and I was wondering something - what are the populations of Roshar? 

For instance, what is the population of Alethkar? Kharbranth? Shinovar?

Sorry if I missed it in the book. Let's see if we can get a discussion going

[Watchcry he/him]

I've thought of this as well. So many have been slaughtered with ease by shardbearers that it would seem that few would be left to slaughter in the future. One would think that the average couple ought to have five or six children each to repopulate but I haven't observed many children to a single family with the exception to Shallan's family.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

1 hour ago, ICanDream said:

what are the populations of Roshar

We don't know. Most specifics we really have is this:

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Q: What's the population of the shardworld's we've seen so far (even in very general terms, like one's much bigger than the others or something)?

A: Scadrial is certainly the least populated of the major shard worlds. Then Nalthis, I'd guess, followed by Roshar, and finally Sel--which likely has the largest population. I would have to look closely to see which is bigger between those last two.

Q: Interesting that Sel has such a large population, given that the actual numbers of soldiers shown seem to be quite small.

A: Let's just say that Opelon has an inflated opinion of its own size in relation to the rest of the world.

Q: Does a population of about 100 million during The Final Empire (with 1-2 million in Luthadel), and around 15 million during Alloy of Law (with about 5 million in Elendel) seem right?    [RAFO]    How about as far as Elend/Wax knows, at the beginning of their respective series?

A: Then those numbers, if they're off, are at least close.

In essence, Scadrial is the least populated of the 4, with an estimated population of 15 million in the Northern Continent. That is "certainly the least," followed by Nalthis and then Roshar. The Roshar count probably includes the Parshendi though, so in terms of the human pop, we don't know. Some City Comparisons:

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Q: Very interesting though, and off on a tangent - how would food production be like without soulcasters? Has Alethkar, for example, grown far beyond what it could (population-wise) without them?
 
A: The food question is a great one. As far as the Alethi go, it's more a matter of concentration than raw food production. Shipping is SLOW in Alethkar. It's long, which makes getting between north and south difficult, and the rivers aren't as useful as they are on (say) Earth.
The warcamps, for example, would starve themselves out in short order without soulcasters. Supply lines just aren't an Alethi strength. Kholinar, while not as big as Scadrian population centers, is also large enough that it depends on soulcasters for some of its food. It could survive without them, though, with northern Alethi food production.

Q: Very interesting on the food logistics of Alethkar - I never did quite imagine Kholinar was smaller than say, Elendel, but the technological progress there explains it. Given how slow food transportation is, I would presume fresh food is a no-go. Are spices and preserved food selling well in Roshar, then? As for population centers, is Kholinar the largest around, or are other places a lot larger?

A: There's a reason that Herdazian food (which makes Soulcast meat taste good) is popular these days. Azimir is larger in population than Kholinar. Kholinar is big by Rosharan standards, but far smaller than an Earth population center (like London) at a comparable time. The warcamps had it beat by a lot--depending on how you view the warcamps. (As one city, or ten small ones.)

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Q: Azir has a larger population density [than Kholinar], at least. Cosmere-wise, is Elendel the largest, or could say, T'Telir match it?
 
A: Azir has a large population density. Cosmere-wise, though, Elendel is by far the largest. Though I don't have strict population numbers on places like Silverlight.

Kholinar has nearly grown to the point that it would no longer be sustainable without Soulcasters. Kholinar is big by Rosharan standards, but small compared to an earth equivalent. As a Pop person, I imagine that means a lot more to you than it does to me. The Full Warcamps beat Kholinar by a lot, and are completely unsustainable without Soulcasters.
For the Population Density comparison, Elendel has an area of roughly 44 square miles. We know little about the size of other cities.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I just wonder how Elend would react to the biggest city in the Cosmere being named after him.

Also @The One Who Connects those were some very interesting WoBs.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Toaster Retribution

[Megasif he/him]

24 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Quote

Q: What's the population of the shardworld's we've seen so far (even in very general terms, like one's much bigger than the others or something)?

A: Scadrial is certainly the least populated of the major shard worlds. Then Nalthis, I'd guess, followed by Roshar, and finally Sel--which likely has the largest population. I would have to look closely to see which is bigger between those last two.

Q: Interesting that Sel has such a large population, given that the actual numbers of soldiers shown seem to be quite small.

A: Let's just say that Opelon has an inflated opinion of its own size in relation to the rest of the world.

Q: Does a population of about 100 million during The Final Empire (with 1-2 million in Luthadel), and around 15 million during Alloy of Law (with about 5 million in Elendel) seem right?    [RAFO]    How about as far as Elend/Wax knows, at the beginning of their respective series?

A: Then those numbers, if they're off, are at least close.

In essence, Scadrial is the least populated of the 4, with an estimated population of 15 million in the Northern Continent. That is "certainly the least," followed by Nalthis and then Roshar. The Roshar count probably includes the Parshendi though, so in terms of the human pop, we don't know

That's interesting. I was honestly expecting Sel to be the smallest. hmm. I guess we haven't really had much exposition to a lot of the other cities/countries/states, except the one in The Emperor's Soul. The sequels will shed more light unto this matter.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, Megasif said:

haven't really had much exposition to a lot of the other cities/countries/states, except the one in The Emperor's Soul.

cough cough Third Kingdom cough..   Also, keep in mind that Sel is 1.5 times the Cosmere Standard in size, making it a fair bit bigger than Earth. Roshar is 0.9, Scadrial is 1.0, and Nalthis is unknown.

[Calderis he/him]

Population wise, Scadrial also had the minor problem of being mostly uninhabitable until 300 years ago. 

[Megasif he/him]

14 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

cough cough Third Kingdom cough..   Also, keep in mind that Sel is 1.5 times the Cosmere Standard in size, making it a fair bit bigger than Earth. Roshar is 0.9, Scadrial is 1.0, and Nalthis is unknown.

Aggghhh I want a Sel World map really bad all of a sudden

[ICanDream]

Thanks for all the replies!

So something I was wondering is what the population of Shinovar is. It seems to resemble earth, so wouldn't the larger fertility result in higher population. Also without war, more food could be transported to cities, instead of, say, war camps. And armies are usually made of about 1% of the population ( though it could be higher on Roshar due in o should casters ) so that could make a difference.

Also how much of a population is sent to war on the shattered plains. 2%? 3%? In a pre industrial society this would usually be incredibly high, but, well... soulcasters.

Any replies will be much appreciated.

[MorallyQuestionablr]

It might be roughly 800,000,000 million people. Basiclly how i got this number is, i took the population density of the hight of rome and applied it to roshars size which apparantly is about 40,000,000 square kilometers. I cut some of it out because of the unclaimed hills and the frostlands but i think it sounds reasonable. It might even be a low estimate since roshar can relay on soulcasters for food and not just on farming

[Honorless he/him]

Welcome to the Shard, @MorallyQuestionablr!

Roshar should be fairly populous despite having a single rocky continent, regularly battered by hurricane-lite storms and often devastated by a war between gods.

The Desolations haven't occurred for four millenia and the Highstorms are a vital part of the ecosystem. Roshar might be rocky, but it is still mostly comparable a tropical region in the amount of life it can support. It's just that it's ecosystem seems so alien and nothing like the Earth, that we think it should have a smaller population.

Roshar is around 459 million sq km in area, the continent itself should be between 115 mil and 55 mil sq km but that's still far larger than any continent on Earth. (I'm sorry but that's the best I can do calculating this, maybe one of the Arcanists have a more precise calculation on one of their pages).

There are multiple peoples to consider too, though they might only contribute a very small percentage of the total population: like the Natan as well as the Siah and Dysian Aimians, the Parshendi should be relatively high in population, considering the amount of Parshmen slaves. A lot of the middle states like Tu Bayla, Tu Fallia, Hexi and the Purelake are said to have a nomadic population. The Frostlands are mostly empty.

Roshar can feed a larger population due to the Soulcasters than cultures with similar level of technology on Earth. I would put their population at the high millions, possibly a billion but not any higher than that.

[Karger he/him]

7 hours ago, MorallyQuestionablr said:

It might be roughly 800,000,000 million people. Basiclly how i got this number is, i took the population density of the hight of rome and applied it to roshars size which apparantly is about 40,000,000 square kilometers. I cut some of it out because of the unclaimed hills and the frostlands but i think it sounds reasonable. It might even be a low estimate since roshar can relay on soulcasters for food and not just on farming

Great thinking.  Unfortunately I don't think that will work.  Due to Roshar's unique ecology food grows faster and more densely and there is no off season(like an earth winter) and diseases are much rarer.  There is also a wide medical knowledge base in many places(Wisdom of the Heralds).  Roshar also has a large number of wide scale wars that continuously chopped back the population(first the desolations then the Shin invasions then the hirocracy, and then the War of Loss and Sunmaker genocides).

Edited October 23, 2019 by Karger

[Honorless he/him]

30 minutes ago, Karger said:

Great thinking.  Unfortunately I don't think that will work.  Due to Roshar's unique ecology food grows faster and more densely and there is no off season(like an earth winter) and diseases are much rarer.  There is also a wide medical knowledge base in many places(Wisdom of the Heralds).  Roshar also has a large number of wide scale wars that continuously chopped back the population(first the desolations then the Shin invasions then the hirocracy, and then the War of Loss and Sunmaker genocides).

And the War of Reckoning on the Shattered Plains have been going on for years... good thinking! 

[StanLemon]

On 7/4/2017 at 3:52 PM, Calderis said:

Population wise, Scadrial also had the minor problem of being mostly uninhabitable until 300 years ago. 

Well, to be fair it did have a decent population for the survivable area.....unit Ruin was freed

[Karger he/him]

8 hours ago, Honorless said:

And the War of Reckoning on the Shattered Plains have been going on for years... good thinking! 

That is less of a total war but sure.

[Honorless he/him]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is less of a total war but sure.

It lasted for years. The camps of the Highprinces on the Shattered Plains had a bigger population than the capital city of Kholinar, and it was where most of Alethkar's powerful were concentrated. It resulted in a very successful slave route. Can you imagine how many soldiers died over the course of years? Better yet, how many Bridgemen?

Plus, the Alethi were almost always at war, the protracted wars of unification by the Kholins, the regular skirmishes that Alethkar had with Vedenar and Herdaz. Plus, at the end of the War of Reckoning, at least two armies of the Highprinces were severely depleted. Would definitely consider it a major conflict for Roshar, and it did leave a sizeable footprint on its population.

[Aon Tia she/her]

And alethis are not the only ones always fighting. In kaladins stroll with the stormfather during the storm, he saw many different nations at war with each other. 

And then there are the constant highstorms. Granted people have learnt to be safe, but there must be plenty casualties with every Highstorm roshar-wide.

 

[Karger he/him]

3 hours ago, Honorless said:

Plus, the Alethi were almost always at war, the protracted wars of unification by the Kholins, the regular skirmishes that Alethkar had with Vedenar and Herdaz

These are more significant.

2 hours ago, The traveller said:

And alethis are not the only ones always fighting. In kaladins stroll with the stormfather during the storm, he saw many different nations at war with each other. 

True.

[Honorless he/him]

28 minutes ago, Karger said:

These are more significant.

Only if taken together. Otherwise, all characters have indicated it as being a major conflict dragged on for a significant amount of time. Don't forget that the Listener population have to be accounted for the population figures as well, and they suffered horrendously severe losses as stated by Eshonai, the others in the Council of 5, Venli, Demid, Rlain, the Highprinces' own accounts etc

[Aon Tia she/her]

One-third of listeners population was decimated in this war.

 

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

2 hours ago, Karger said:

 

Only if taken together.

Yes that is what I meant.

[Honorless he/him]

@Karger, then please be less curt and state what you meant completely rather than appearing to simply be stating your disagreement without any back-up evidence. Otherwise, you just appear confusingly contrary and it makes it very difficult to parse what you meant. I have noticed this behavior on multiple threads wherever you have interacted with me. I'm sorry if I did something to offend you before those interactions and I'm also sorry if that's how you normally converse, but we're talking by viewing letters on a screen here, without being face-to-face I can't really tell whether what you said is meant as a critique or if you are just responding for the sake of etiquette (which regardless, seems very dismissive and not nice thing to do). Once again, I'm sorry if it's just me being obtuse in understanding your responses, but I'd like you to expand on your comments to be more comprehensible to me and possibly others who may be reading the thread.

[Karger he/him]

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

 

@Karger, then please be less curt and state what you meant completely rather than appearing to simply be stating your disagreement without any back-up evidence. Otherwise, you just appear confusingly contrary and it makes it very difficult to parse what you meant. I have noticed this behavior on multiple threads wherever you have interacted with me. I'm sorry if I did something to offend you before those interactions and I'm also sorry if that's how you normally converse, but we're talking by viewing letters on a screen here, without being face-to-face I can't really tell whether what you said is meant as a critique or if you are just responding for the sake of etiquette (which regardless, seems very dismissive and not nice thing to do). Once again, I'm sorry if it's just me being obtuse in understanding your responses, but I'd like you to expand on your comments to be more comprehensible to me and possibly others who may be reading the thread.

 

You are not and have not offended me.  I am just pressed for time and like to keep of with the community here.  Keeping up with multiple threads that are updated daily takes time and formulating complicated responses often takes more.  It generally makes sense for me to be curt with my replies.  I try to be as clear as possible but that is not always an option.