Odium's champion?

[Calderis]

33 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I still am of the belief that Odium's champion will be an Infant just like the death rattles say. 

The honourable wouldn't be able to kill it and Odium wouldn't need to lift a finger. 

The speculation that the suckling babe is the champion is just that. Speculation. I understand the reasoning. 

This is again applying morality to Honor, and for whoever that death rattle applies to, there is obviously a moral implication "for the path of Honor is life" 

If the champion is really a child though, I find it hard to believe that every single person would forgo the killing. There is bound to be someone, even at the cost of their powers and their spren if necessary, who would strike. 

[The One Who Connects]

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I got was Brandon listing the 6-10 flashback people, and mentioning Taln last. However, this was probably just a random order, and not the actual one he will use.

Fair enough. I pulled much the same assumption with him always having Eshonai be the 4th name he said when referring to the front five

3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I still am of the belief that Odium's champion will be an Infant just like the death rattles say. 

The honourable wouldn't be able to kill it and Odium wouldn't need to lift a finger. 

Decisions, decisions..

Let the infant be possessed by an evil god and let the world get destroyed.   OR   Free the infant from Odium's grip with a killing blow, thus saving the world.

hrmm... I think you have sorely misunderstood the gravity of the situation.

---

How quickly we all forget that Kaladin was fully willing to take the Assassin with him when he tackled him and fell from the Warcamps Tower.

• If Odium uses the child for anything that harms those that a Windrunner is Oathbound to protect, a repeat is almost assured.
• Pass any sort of law that Voidbound individuals are to be shot on sight, then Skybreakers are Oathbound to act.
• Dustbringers could "release" the child from Odium's control and finally earn the name of Releasers.
• Edgedancers are debatable.
• Truthwatchers are shrouded in too much secrecy to make a call here.
• Former murderer among the Lightweavers is nothing new, as self-realization is what is necessary.
• Elsecallers are debatable, but Jasnah and the thugs comes to mind.
• Willshapers should be inconsistent enough in temperament that at least one will take the plunge.
• Stonewards "took less care for imprudent practice of their stubbornness" Imprudent is defined as "not caring for consequences, rash". Sounds like an "act now, think later" person would fit in, and would try to solve the problem by acting.
• For Bondsmiths, I give you Gavilar's motivations. (Start from the linked post and scroll)

---

If you think that sparing people from pain is the honorable thing to do, there is no way this ends without killing the child. You make the child's death swift and painless, as opposed to what will undoubtedly happen to it when Odium destroys the world. You spare the entire planet from painful deaths by saving them.

"To lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose."  - Third Doctor

[teknopathetic]

19 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Decisions, decisions..

Let the infant be possessed by an evil god and let the world get destroyed.   OR   Free the infant from Odium's grip with a killing blow, thus saving the world.

hrmm... I think you have sorely misunderstood the gravity of the situation.

If you think that sparing people from pain is the honorable thing to do, there is no way this ends without killing the child. You make the child's death swift and painless, as opposed to what will undoubtedly happen to it when Odium destroys the world. You spare the entire planet from painful deaths by saving them.

"To lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose."  - Third Doctor

Oh the child doesn't need to be under Odium's control or in any amount of pain; all Odium has to say is something like "My champion is Shallan's baby" and make that the end of it. The someone like Adolin or Kaladin need to make the call. Who knows what the parents will decided etc etc. 

But we know a baby will or did hold the fate of the world, and killing it will be/would have been key. Life before death. 

 

Edited July 7, 2017 by teknopathetic

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Oh the child doesn't need to be under Odium's control or in any amount of pain; all Odium has to say is something like "My champion is Shallan's baby" and make that the end of it. The someone like Adolin or Kaladin need to make the call. Who knows what the parents will decided etc etc. 

But we know a baby will or did hold the fate of the world, and killing it will be/would have been key. Life before death. 

 

This also assumes that the death rattle in general is literal. Most have been filled with symbolism. 

[Toaster Retribution]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

This also assumes that the death rattle in general is literal. Most have been filled with symbolism. 

Maybe the baby is symbolism for Taln. He has come to the world recently, he has no general idea about what is going on, people take care of him, etc.

[teknopathetic]

Here is the Death rattle:

 

“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. ”

— Collected on Shashanan 1173, 23 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a darkeyed youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note.
 

It doesn't seem to metaphorical. Many of the death rattles are very literal. Everyone WANTS the person to sacrifice that baby, but will that person do so? Would honour? I doubt the baby stands for something else. 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2017 by teknopathetic

[The One Who Connects]

22 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

all Odium has to say is something like "My champion is Shallan's baby" and make that the end of it. The someone like Adolin or Kaladin need to make the call.

I don't care whether or not he is telling the truth, much of the cast has learned the folly of blindly trusting someone's word. Kaladin was betrayed, Dalinar was betrayed, Moash, Adolin, etc.. I refuse to believe that the entire surviving cast will be stupid enough to not even try to call Odium's bluff. If an all powerful god cannot provide proof of its claims, what good are those claims? If he does provide proof, then we move to the red eyes paragraph.

22 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Oh the child doesn't need to be under Odium's control or in any amount of pain;

You misunderstand. I meant the pain it would suffer when Odium kills off the planet. The pain everyone will suffer. You know children are suffering and dying, but the infant in front of you puts it into perspective, makes it real. You don't want children to suffer, but seeing one in front of you, knowing you have the power to do something about it? Normal decision making goes out the window in times like that.

As for possession, you're right that he doesn't have to, but it makes little difference. "Red eyes, take warning." Odium would not just sit idly by and let his champion get slaughtered. His champion will have access to magic(Voidbinding most likely) to protect itself. Even if all Odium does is provide fuel for self-defensive use of magic, the red eyes and/or visibly corrupted Stormlight(is Voidlight an proper term yet?) around the child will get misconstrued as possession because mankind are far too superstitious and have likely gone though enough of the Desolation to understand what it might mean.

22 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Life before death. 

The choice of Honor is life. Of the two choices, only one ends with life.

 1) Death bringing Life.  -  Kill the child, save the world.
 2) Life bringing Death.  -  Spare the child, Odium destroys the world, killing the child and everyone else.

You action and your inaction both lead to death, so deciding between "the child dies," and "the child + everyone else dies" is pointless. I can't choose life when my options are death and death. Deciding between "everyone else lives" and "everyone else dies" is the real choice.
When your choices are directly kill only one person, and indirectly kill everyone including that person, which do you think is the more honorable choice?

"In this job, you try to save as many people as you can. Sometimes that doesn't mean everyone. But you don't give up."  - Captain America

[Calderis]

17 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

It doesn't seem to metaphorical. Many of the death rattles are very literal. Everyone WANTS the person to sacrifice that baby, but will that person do so? Would honour? I doubt the baby stands for something else.

The frustrating thing about prophecies and symbolism is that they are only clear after the fact. 

Just because it seems straight forward doesn't mean that it is. 

And if it is literal, and every character chooses the death of the world over the death of a single innocent, I will be severely disappointed for all the points that The One Who Connects made in the post above this one.

Morality is in black and white in children's stories. Letting the child live at the cost of everyone's , including the child in question, life is not the moral or honorable choice. 

Edited July 8, 2017 by Calderis

[maxal]

Do I agree with killing one single child to save humanity? No. Absolutely not. Because nobody can claim without doubt this one death would save others. There is nothing which can prove and even if there was a prophecy this child would turn evil and kill everyone, I would still spare it. Each being has the right to make his or her own choice: people aren't born with a tag for evil.

Life is complicated and nothing is ever set in advance: anyone claiming such thing is is seriously deluding itself. Taranvangian as essentially decided he had to kill many innocent children in order to save a few: he sincerely believes it is within his right to so so because he perceives the ending as life being spared.

I disagree. 

Killing people over the thought a future unknown thread would make it so those few deaths will save others is a dumb idea. Nobody can prove it is the case, nobody can know in advance how events will unfold.

You just don't sacrifice one poor kid to save humanity. One tiny infant's life isn't going to save humanity and everyone pretending it will is just plain wrong. Death of humanity is such a vague and complex theme, nobody has enough vision to know in advance one death would save many. As human beings we make decisions as events unfold and it isn't up to Dalinar nor anyone else to have the right of say over the life of anyone. If anyone is willing to follow is lead, then fine, it is their choice, but he doesn't get to slay one throat over the promise it will save many more: he can't prove it. He can't know. And a worthy leader tries to spare the life of his followers as much as possible: he doesn't throw them away over visions or death rattles which are led to interpretation.

Needless to say if everyone is willing to kill a child because it would supposedly not doom humanity, I will be severely disappointed because nobody's death can matter enough to garantee such an outcome and even if it did, I would still take my chance with the unknown future. I would not murder the child and I would never believe I am dooming humanity by doing so: it is the one who kills the child which is dooming humanity as what is humanity if it is filled with people killing babies for the promise of a better future? What kind of people behave this way? I wouldn't want to live anywhere near a world exempt of compassion and human feelings.

[Calderis]

Thankfully, I don't believe for a second this is going to be an issue. 

Odium placing a child as his Champion is a ridiculous idea in my opinion. Someone is going to be dissociative enough to call his bluff. Period. 

He's not stupid enough to hang his fate on the morals of his enemies. 

This is precisely why I believe the death rattle is figurative and that the champion, be it Taln, or whoever else, is going to be someone capable. 

To do otherwise is complete foolishness. 

Edited July 8, 2017 by Calderis

[The Voiceless One]

The choice of a champion will be heavily influenced by the contest the champion is for.  There is also nothing that says that the champion must be humanoid.  If the contest is a one on one dual without magic, then I would nominate a chasmfiend as my champion.  Alternatively, nominate a flea, and no one will ever find the champion to kill it.

[maxal]

Nothing has ever said the champions would be fighters, nothing was ever said they would fight as in physical fighting. It probably won't be a duel. Honor's champion will likely be the least plausible individual ever: say Renarin. Someone nobody would ever think of picking for their champion but who happens to be exactly what they need.

[The Voiceless One]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

Nothing has ever said the champions would be fighters, nothing was ever said they would fight as in physical fighting. It probably won't be a duel.

I was not trying to say it would be a fight or a dual.  I just wanted to have an example to make my point.

Out of curiosity, how do you think the champions will be tested?  There will need to be some way of discovering which champion is better so that the winning side may be decided.  Also keep in mind that "better" may have different requirements, such as best magic user, or perhaps the challenge would be a tournament with judges scoring the champions in different events.

[maxal]

Just now, The Voiceless One said:

I was not trying to say it would be a fight or a dual.  I just wanted to have an example to make my point.

Out of curiosity, how do you think the champions will be tested?  There will need to be some way of discovering which champion is better so that the winning side may be decided.  Also keep in mind that "better" may have different requirements, such as best magic user, or perhaps the challenge would be a tournament with judges scoring the champions in different events.

Honestly I have no idea, but everyone keeps on imagining a tournament where one guy will sword fight the other guy which has led so many people say it will be Kaladin against Adolin. What if it isn't a fight as we envision it? What if it is just will against will, what if it is completely anti-climatic such as Sazed being the hero of ages and not Vin?

I honestly absolutely do not believe in a traditional tournament with judges: who would allow their faith to be settled so meaninglessly? I think the champions will likely do stuff into the cognitive realm which won't look like much to us but will solve an issue. I dunno, but I honestly do not see it as a duel in between fighter, especially not one involving Adolin.

[Calderis]

Once "champions" are brought in, I don't think it's going to be some formalized battle or duel. 

HoA spoilers 

Spoiler

After Vin had ascended, the clash between Elend and Marsh is a perfect example of meeting of champions.

There were no rules, no predetermined test, but they were clearly marked by the battling shards. And in that example Vin/Preservation won, despite Her champions death. 

So I don't think there's going to be a predetermined perfect showdown between the Shards champions. 

I think the entire purpose of getting him to appoint a champion is to get him to invest into something/one in order to weaken him. 

And in this case unless Cultivation becomes more directly involved, it can't be a formalized duel between Shard appointed champions as there is no Shard of Honor to empower a champion. 

So the champion will be a gambit to force Odium to take a more direct role at a cost, but it isn't going to be an arena with spectators watching on the edge of their seats. It will be a chance to get him directly involved so that he can actually lose something. 

[Toaster Retribution]

What if the champions are going to engage in a pancake-eating competition? Then Lift is obviously the champion of Honor/Cultivation. 

[+hwiles]

On 7/7/2017 at 4:56 PM, teknopathetic said:

Here is the Death rattle:

 

“I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. ”

— Collected on Shashanan 1173, 23 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a darkeyed youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note.
 

It doesn't seem to metaphorical. Many of the death rattles are very literal. Everyone WANTS the person to sacrifice that baby, but will that person do so? Would honour? I doubt the baby stands for something else. 

 

 

My take on that death rattle was that Moleach (the Unmade responsible for Death Rattles) was transmitting the thoughts/words of Nale.  He's spent decades going around and murdering people who showed evidence of bonding a spren.  Some of them, like Shallan, likely bonded spren at a very young age.  Further, someone as old and powerful as Nale might very well consider all proto radiants to essentially be infants, regardless of their physical age.

Basically we already know someone who's spent decades murdering children (and also adults) because they believed, apparently incorrectly, that it was saving the world from destruction.  His name is Nalan.

Edited July 12, 2017 by hwiles

[the winter system]

What if there isn't just an Honor/Cultivation joint ticket/one person for both? I could see a three way championship going down, although Honor's... situation makes me wonder if he'll even be capable to have one. Cultivation has motivation to keep Odium from destroying EVERYTHING, but we don't know her endgame. Cultivation doesn't imply morality, like Honor and Odium do. It just means creation. Just throwing out ideas. 

[red032]

Odium Evil Champignons.




sorry... it´s stronger than me. There must be a pun shard.

[The One Who Connects]

5 hours ago, winter devotion said:

Cultivation has motivation to keep Odium from destroying EVERYTHING, but we don't know her endgame. Cultivation doesn't imply morality, like Honor and Odium do. It just means creation. Just throwing out ideas.

On the contrary, none of them actually imply morality. I can hate murderers and saviors alike, with no regard for "one is a good guy." Even cold-blooded killers can have a Code of Honor, doesn't suddenly make them the good guy. I can cultivate good habits just as easily as bad habits. None of the 10 Shards we currently know have any morality tied to their Intent.

As for Cultivation, it isn't creation. It's improvement. Prune away the weeds to cultivate the flower. Prune away corruption to cultivate society. Be careful about thinking that Cultivation doesn't want to destroy everything. She could easily reach a point where the best option is to wipe the slate clean and try again(meteor wipes out dinosaurs -> Earth-life v2 begins)

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

As for Cultivation, it isn't creation. It's improvement. Prune away the weeds to cultivate the flower. Prune away corruption to cultivate society. Be careful about thinking that Cultivation doesn't want to destroy everything. She could easily reach a point where the best option is to wipe the slate clean and try again(meteor wipes out dinosaurs -> Earth-life v2 begins)

Agreed. Cultivation is growth that is directed. Sometimes, the easiest way to get the result you want in a garden is to just uproot everything and start over. 

[+Extesian]

50 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Agreed. Cultivation is growth that is directed. Sometimes, the easiest way to get the result you want in a garden is to just uproot everything and start over. 

Yeah with all the weeping and tearing of garments and gnashing of teeth about Taravangian, to me he's just an agent of Cultivation. Culling some folk to make for a better new world is pretty cultivationy.

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Yeah with all the weeping and tearing of garments and gnashing of teeth about Taravangian, to me he's just an agent of Cultivation. Culling some folk to make for a better new world is pretty cultivationy.

Yeah, I've been of the opinion for a while that if an outside force intervened in the Diagram, it's her and not Odium.

Selective growth to strengthen the planet via intensive pruning. 

If he does turn out to be a Bondsmith, he's bonding the Nightwatcher. 

[discorat]

On 7/4/2017 at 7:05 AM, Calderis said:

The idea of a champion comes up a lot, and I wanted to throw out an unconventional idea here. 

The Heralds betrayed Taln, and left him alone to resist the torture between desolations.

What if the reason the desolation was held off so long wasn't because Taln is so amazing. What if because the attention was focused Solely on Taln, Odium was able to intentionally hold him longer. Odium has spent these past four and a half millenia influencing Taln to become his Champion. 

The reason his personality has been destroyed, and the reason Brandon refers to him as "the man who calls himself Taln" is because he's simply not Taln anymore. It's the same body, the same entity, but over millenia he has been twisted into a sleeper agent who was allowed to return to destroy the new Knights from within, and if necessary become Odium's Champion? 

This theory is actually better than mine. I thought Adolin would be odiums chapter but this is much better (plus i love adolin and would hate for him to turn evil)

[the winter system]

Good point, I could definitely see that the Shardholder's(or s') interpretation of the Shard's Intent would change how it affected them.