Odium's champion?

[Calderis he/him]

The idea of a champion comes up a lot, and I wanted to throw out an unconventional idea here. 

The Heralds betrayed Taln, and left him alone to resist the torture between desolations.

What if the reason the desolation was held off so long wasn't because Taln is so amazing. What if because the attention was focused Solely on Taln, Odium was able to intentionally hold him longer. Odium has spent these past four and a half millenia influencing Taln to become his Champion. 

The reason his personality has been destroyed, and the reason Brandon refers to him as "the man who calls himself Taln" is because he's simply not Taln anymore. It's the same body, the same entity, but over millenia he has been twisted into a sleeper agent who was allowed to return to destroy the new Knights from within, and if necessary become Odium's Champion? 

[Krandacth]

I like this, purely because reading it made me look at a few lines in the Taln PoV chapter very differently. He thinks about there being flames everywhere, then wonders why 'they' aren't screaming. Maybe these two are less connected than we are meant to think. Maybe 'Taln' just thinks it would be right for everyone to be screaming...

Also, IIRC there isn't any particular inflection suggested by the tone of that chapter, leaving us to infer his horror by our own empathy. In fact, at one point he refers to the torture as 'blissful' or something (because 'it meant life'). We also assume he is still fundamentally good because of the words he speaks, but, by his own internal admission, they come out completely unbidden by him, 'as they had come so many times before,' or something. There is every chance that, were he more lucid and in control of his words, that isn't what he would choose to be saying.

I like this a lot (even if I am not convinced yet :-P).

[Calderis he/him]

@Krandacth I'm not convinced either. I just had a thought, and wanted to put it out there for discussion. 

It's a possibility I hadn't considered, and considering how little we actually know about Taln... 

I'm not trying to say anything definitive, but I think looking at things from new angles is usually helpful. 

[The One Who Connects he/him]

10 hours ago, Calderis said:

It's a possibility I hadn't considered, and considering how little we actually know about Taln... 

Well, assuming that he actually is Taln(almost certainly is, but..) we should know him quite well in Book 7 or 9 when he's the flashback character. He might have proper flashbacks to the torture on Braize(since Brandon has said there will be scenes on Braize at some point, why not a flashback? That way he doesn't have to try and justify someone getting there for scenes)

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

This sounds cool, and I like it. Part of why I like it is that there are relatively few others it makes sense for. Kaladin, Adolin and Dalinar feel far too honorable. Eshonai feels like "the good Voidbringer" and will probably join the Kholins sooner or later. Besides, it could be seen as too predictable. Jasnah is to invested in saving Roshar. Szeth with Night lood feels like he is pointed in a different direction. Lift... I dont think Odium would want his champion to wield a Shardfork (Hoid would probably find hilarious though). Shallan... my gut says no. That pretty much leaves Renarin and Taln, unless a smaller character, like Moash or Amaram will take up the mantle (I doubt that). Taln feels like the perfect twist, that few will see coming, yet completely logical, right there under our noses. Upvote, @Calderis!

[Kered he/him]

Has there been any discussion on someone forming a nahel bond with an Unmade. I think it would be it would be an interesting concept, assuming this theory to be true, to have Taln bond an Unmade.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

11 minutes ago, Kered said:

Has there been any discussion on someone forming a nahel bond with an Unmade. I think it would be it would be an interesting concept, assuming this theory to be true, to have Taln bond an Unmade.

There has been, in more than one thread. Here is one, anyway, concerning Eshonai and Moelach:

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by Toaster Retribution

[+Extesian he/him]

9 hours ago, Kered said:

Has there been any discussion on someone forming a nahel bond with an Unmade. I think it would be it would be an interesting concept, assuming this theory to be true, to have Taln bond an Unmade.

There's also a WoB

Quote

QUESTION

Can the Unmade be bonded?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Wow...plausible. Er, possible, I should say.

Source

Edit - I only just noticed my reply was on a thread I haven't even looked at properly. It's a pretty good idea @Calderis. I hope you're wrong, I want Taln to be the perfect hero. But there's certainly some merit to it. I'm a bit doubtful because Taln was originally a PoV character, a demi-god going mad. But of course you're proposing the madness is what causes the betrayal so yeah, why not. 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Extesian

[Calderis he/him]

5 hours ago, Extesian said:

There's also a WoB

Edit - I only just noticed my reply was on a thread I haven't even looked at properly. It's a pretty good idea @Calderis. I hope you're wrong, I want Taln to be the perfect hero. But there's certainly some merit to it. I'm a bit doubtful because Taln was originally a PoV character, a demi-god going mad. But of course you're proposing the madness is what causes the betrayal so yeah, why not. 

I actually want to be wrong too. It's an idea I hadn't seen though, and for story format I think it would make sense. It would fit with tWoK back cover and the Sleepless implying that the length of time between these desolation is intentional.

From in world characters PoV's, it would also make sense for Odium as a schemer, because the Heralds are viewed as either servants of the Almighty, or outright gods.

Who expects to be betrayed by their god? 

[WhiteLeeopard she/her]

This just fits in so perfectly. I don't want it to be true, but it makes far too much sense. The Heralds were great men and women, but they were already broken when they broke the Oathpact. Add in another 4500 years of torture, alone and betrayed by his friends...and I can't think of a single literary character ever written strong enough to withstand that. If Odium wanted to turn Taln I bet he could have done it. The only reason why this might not be the case is if Odium had no interest in turning him, which seems unlikely, as what are the drawbacks of turning a godlike Herald of Honor? Zero as far as we know. 

[gbazz4 he/him]

Very interesting theory Calderis. I like it. When i start doing my rereads of WOK and WOR in a few weeks i am going to pay particular attention to the scenes with Taln to see if there is any other hints in the wording of the books that can lend evidences for the theory. Upvote for you sir!

[Chinsukolo]

I'm on board with an additonal theory (10 Heralds = 10 Fools), that I don't think contradicts yours but maybe precedes yours differently.

Basically Odium focuses on 1 Herald over the others and intentionally tries to break that Herald. (He still tortures all of them).  He tries to break them in a way that breaks their prime attribute.  When one breaks, a Desolation happens, when its over Odium focuses on the next Herald in line. 

Taln last so long not because he was a traitor or a planned champion, but because he was the last of the 10 to be targeted because Odium already suspect from previous iterations that he would hold the longest.  I feel that's why the Prelude hints that "their all" broken.

That does not preclude your speculation though, the outcome of the above theory could still be that Taln becomes Odium's Champion after 4.5k years of Torture.

 

Unrelated to your theory directly, I always assumed the "man who calls himself Taln" was becasue Taln himself was also "swapped" when the Honrblade was too.  I.e. real Taln showed up at the gates, and is in confinement and his Honorbalde taken.  Some other "madman" who cant communicate was then sent to the Shattered planes with a Shardblade to be the "fake" Honorblade.  Since Heralds aren't Surgebinders, w/o his Honorblade he has no extra powers to escape and probably still quite insane/disoriented.

 

Also unrelated (trying not to double post - but also can't get "Quotes" to work inside an edit)

I think @Extesian WoB 

Quote

QUESTION

Can the Unmade be bonded?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Wow...plausible. Er, possible, I should say.

Kind of puts to rest a bunch of other speculations that a 3rd Bondsmith bonds with an Unmade.   Unless Brandon is being totally precient and sneaky knowing the question would be asked.  I just don't see him behing that suprised by the question, then considering an answer, and then the answer being "possible".   If the 3rd Bondsmith was meant or intended to Bond an Unmade, I have full faith that it would be already in Brandon's outline, and not a surprise question.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Chinsukolo
Clarification, and avoid a double post

[gbazz4 he/him]

2 minutes ago, Chinsukolo said:

Unrelated to your theory directly, I always assumed the "man who calls himself Taln" was becasue Taln himself was also "swapped" when the Honrblade was too.  I.e. real Taln showed up at the gates, and is in confinement and his Honorbalde taken.  Some other "madman" who cant communicate was then sent to the Shattered planes with a Shardblade to be the "fake" Honorblade.  Since Heralds aren't Surgebinders, w/o his Honorblade he has no extra powers to escape and probably still quite insane/disoriented.

My only thought about this is there are a couple of odd points then. IIRC Taln gets lucid for a short period once Shallan does some lightweaving near him and i thought he made a comment about her being of one Ishar's Knights (but my recollection might be off on the comment). Then he acts absurdly fast to catch the darts Iyatil shoots at Amaram and catches them. I don't think a regular insane person who was swapped would have a reason to, or could, catch the darts and would know what lightweaving was. 

[Chinsukolo]

4 minutes ago, gbazz4 said:

My only thought about this is there are a couple of odd points then. IIRC Taln gets lucid for a short period once Shallan does some lightweaving near him and i thought he made a comment about her being of one Ishar's Knights (but my recollection might be off on the comment). Then he acts absurdly fast to catch the darts Iyatil shoots at Amaram and catches them. I don't think a regular insane person who was swapped would have a reason to, or could, catch the darts and would know what lightweaving was. 

Fair points - I don't have full faith in the theory, its just an idea.  But don't think Brandon's "man who calls himself Taln" is any kind of attempt to allude to other things.  I see it only as way to avoid spoiling.  Either because my 1/2 chull idea, or because the in-world characters still aren't certain its him and he doesn't wish to spoil them finding out by confirming for readers that it is or isn't.

[Calderis he/him]

There's a reason I referred to him as a sleeper agent. 

He's going to appear to be Taln, just like always, if I'm right. 

He'll become a problem later. 

[CJ Feboris]

The only problem I can find with the theory is the POV book. I don't think Brandon would make his readers suffer through a book where the protagonist is a   violation, his plot twists don't generally destroy our faith in him as a human being and it would be very hard to have a protagonist that you cannot cheer for throughout the entire book. Even GRRM gives his characters some likable traits with a possible good outcome, with Taln as a villain, we could not cheer for him and we don't want him to die and go back to being tortured. This seems like a bad conundrum, but maybe if Brandon double crosses himself and has Taln turn again..?

[Calderis he/him]

17 minutes ago, CJ Feboris said:

The only problem I can find with the theory is the POV book. I don't think Brandon would make his readers suffer through a book where the protagonist is a   violation, his plot twists don't generally destroy our faith in him as a human being and it would be very hard to have a protagonist that you cannot cheer for throughout the entire book. Even GRRM gives his characters some likable traits with a possible good outcome, with Taln as a villain, we could not cheer for him and we don't want him to die and go back to being tortured. This seems like a bad conundrum, but maybe if Brandon double crosses himself and has Taln turn again..?

I disagree, having a PoV of the villain intermingled with our heroes, and flashbacks to his fall and corruption would be pretty awesome.

I actually think that it would be even more compelling if that book was the reveal.

Have the story progress as normal, and the flashback section go back to his realization that he's alone and the other Heralds have abandoned him. The flashbacks then progress to show interactions in damnation between him and the entities there. The Final flashback reveals the corruption, before the main story then progresses to the Betrayal. 

If properly foreshadowed, that would be a compelling story, with an emotional Rollercoaster, ending in a shocking cliffhanger. 

I'd love everything about it and hate it for making me wait for the next book. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I seem to recall it being said that Talns flashback book was to be the last one in the series, so if Taln being the champion of Odium is to be revealed through a flashback, then it will be one of the main/last twists in the series. I have a hard time seeing that, and I guess that if Taln is a traitor, we will know it before book 10.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

44 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I seem to recall it being said that Taln's flashback book was to be the last one in the series,

Do you think you can find that again?

It would basically contradict one of the few patterns I've noticed about the SA books if true. So far, we've done Male, Female, Male. Back before he chose whether Szeth or Dalinar would have book 3, Eshonai was always mentioned fourth in his names.(might've been unintentional, but..)
The back five has 3 female viewpoints and two male, so if he followed suit, Taln would be either book 7 or 9.

If Taln is book 10, then I'm wrong and his alternating m/f pattern has been coincidence.

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

This is an interesting idea, but I guess one reason I'm having trouble accepting it is that I can't think if a reason to assume that Odium is/has been seeking a champion. Am I wrong in this? Because, it seems like having a duel of champions is sort of Honor's last resort. This coming Desolation is sure to be different, but I guess I don't see evidence for a champion being part of Odium's plan.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Just now, Crucible of Shards said:

This is an interesting idea, but I guess one reason I'm having trouble accepting it is that I can't think if a reason to assume that Odium is/has been seeking a champion. Am I wrong in this? Because, it seems like having a duel of champions is sort of Honor's last resort. This coming Desolation is sure to be different, but I guess I don't see evidence for a champion being part of Odium's plan.

It's not necessarily his plan. Odium could simply be planning for any possible outcome. Perhaps he wants to turn a Herald for more mundane reasons like having a spy or a traitor in the higher ranks, and he then uses that traitor as his champion later on when he realizes it's inevitable("He's bound by rules. We all are.")   Mistborn Spoilers

Spoiler

Ruin's Champion wasn't planned either. He added most of the extra spikes as a means of gaining more control over Marsh's strong mind, while also making him a more useful pawn. At some point he appointed him as his champion, but I don't think that it was ever in Ruin's plan until he had to make it part of the plan.

[Calderis he/him]

13 minutes ago, Crucible of Shards said:

This is an interesting idea, but I guess one reason I'm having trouble accepting it is that I can't think if a reason to assume that Odium is/has been seeking a champion. Am I wrong in this? Because, it seems like having a duel of champions is sort of Honor's last resort. This coming Desolation is sure to be different, but I guess I don't see evidence for a champion being part of Odium's plan.

Rayse is, at least in Hoid's opinion, cunning. I don't think Odium wants a champion situation, and that isn't Taln's main purpose. I do think he's aware of the possibility though, and if this is correct (which again let me reiterate, I don't want it to be. Entertaining a thought doesn't mean accepting it) Taln was groomed for that possibility. 

In the vision where Tanavast mentioned a champion, he said that it may be possible to make Odium believe that a champion is in his best interest. So if things go that route, then it would be because Odium believes it's the best option.

And as I was just ninja'd, The One Who Connects Mistborn points are also very very valid. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Calderis

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

@The One Who Connects I have searched, but failed to find it. I think it is something I originally read in a Reddit thread, but as said, I didnt find anything. The closest I got was Brandon listing the 6-10 flashback people, and mentioning Taln last. However, this was probably just a random order, and not the actual one he will use. It might be that it was something like that I recalled, Brandon just namedropped the characters, Taln was last in order and I got it wrong. In any case, I sadly cant find it :-(

[Steeldancer he/him]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

It's not necessarily his plan. Odium could simply be planning for any possible outcome. Perhaps he wants to turn a Herald for more mundane reasons like having a spy or a traitor in the higher ranks, and he then uses that traitor as his champion later on when he realizes it's inevitable("He's bound by rules. We all are.")   Mistborn Spoilers

  Hide contents

Ruin's Champion wasn't planned either. He added most of the extra spikes as a means of gaining more control over Marsh's strong mind, while also making him a more useful pawn. At some point he appointed him as his champion, but I don't think that it was ever in Ruin's plan until he had to make it part of the plan.

wait what? I was not aware that Marsh was Ruin's Champion. although it does make perfect sense.

[teknopathetic he/him]

I still am of the belief that Odium's champion will be an Infant just like the death rattles say. 

The honourable wouldn't be able to kill it and Odium wouldn't need to lift a finger. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by teknopathetic