[OB] Shin Conqueror?

[ZenBossanova]

I rather suspect that it will be foolish to underestimate the Shin. 

Szeth had his skills in the martial arts long before he became truthless. And considering Szeth was familar with the Rhythms, (I suspect) it is also a way they can channel magic. So, Bruce Lee with Investiture. 

Yes, the lower class uses weapons, but with most societies, there are far more lower class than upper class. 

[The One Who Connects]

6 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

And considering Szeth was familiar with the Rhythms, (I suspect) it is also a way they can channel magic.

He was familiar with the Rhythms? When did this happen? i wouldn't put it past myself to have missed it, but this seems like something that would be out of place enough to be overtly noticeable.

[Calderis]

21 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Szeth had his skills in the martial arts long before he became truthless. And considering Szeth was familar with the Rhythms, (I suspect) it is also a way they can channel magic. So, Bruce Lee with Investiture. 

I also don't remember anything about the Rhythms from Szeth. Can you clarify? 

The fact that the Shin have a martial art is also telling in and of itself. If it is widespread, and not just contained to the Shamans, then the Shin will most likely be far more formidable than they seem. Even if it's only mainly practiced for self discipline or meditation, having a populace with a practiced combat form will adapt to actual combat much more quickly than typical conscripts. 

26 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Yes, the lower class uses weapons, but with most societies, there are far more lower class than upper class. 

While this is true as a general statement, it's not when you're speaking of specific groups. I don't think all of the lower classes use weapons. 

I think it's more akin to say that the Warriors are akin to modern day homeless. They're by no means a small number, but no where near the majority. 

[ZenBossanova]

I remember more than this, but it comes from the Prelude with Eshonai talking with Gavilar. 

Spoiler

They intend to bring back our gods, she had said. Close your eyes. Focus on the rhythms. He could do it, he knows so much. Furious beats pulsing in her soul. We have to do something! Klade’s slave was an assassin. She thought he purchased him on a whim, but Klade had claimed the voice speaking in the rhythms had led him to the man. They claimed it was a sign of what they would do, and that the creature had confided his skills [to them?] when pressed.

 

 

[+Extesian]

19 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

I remember more than this, but it comes from the Prelude with Eshonai talking with Gavilar. 

  Hide contents

They intend to bring back our gods, she had said. Close your eyes. Focus on the rhythms. He could do it, he knows so much. Furious beats pulsing in her soul. We have to do something! Klade’s slave was an assassin. She thought he purchased him on a whim, but Klade had claimed the voice speaking in the rhythms had led him to the man. They claimed it was a sign of what they would do, and that the creature had confided his skills [to them?] when pressed.

 

 

Aah that makes sense, but

Spoiler

I don't think that means Szeth can attune, or even knows about, the rhythms. It's that someone else spoke through the rhythms to lead Klade to Szeth. My bet is an Unmade?

 

[The One Who Connects]

21 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

I remember more than this, but it comes from the Prelude with Eshonai talking with Gavilar.

  Hide contents

They intend to bring back our gods, she had said. Close your eyes. Focus on the rhythms. He could do it, he knows so much. Furious beats pulsing in her soul. We have to do something! Klade’s slave was an assassin. She thought he purchased him on a whim, but Klade had claimed the voice speaking in the rhythms had led him to the man. They claimed it was a sign of what they would do, and that the creature had confided his skills [to them?] when pressed.

Pardon my bluntness, but I see nothing that implies what you seem to be thinking.

Spoiler

Eshonai is the one focusing on the Rhythms, to clear her head and think. Eshonai thought Klade purchased Szeth on a whim, but Klade had heard a voice within the Rhythms. The voice in the Rhythms(Unmade most likely) told Klade what Szeth was. That's why they were able to press him on it. The skills he confided in them when pressed was his skill in assassination(or combat in general, but probably assassination).

And ninja'd by Extesian. I'm on a roll today

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Pardon my bluntness, but I see nothing that implies what you seem to be thinking.

@Extesian and I forgot about that part in the Prologue preview. 

Which means unless she's a Herald, Liss didn't know what Szeth could do, and thus didn't know about the Honorblade. 

One of those two theories goes kaput. 

[The One Who Connects]

4 minutes ago, Calderis said:

One of those two theories goes kaput. 

Which two theories?

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

Which two theories?

Liss is a Herald (still viable) or Liss learned of the Honorblades blade from Szeth and stole Taln's Blade even though she generic human (dead). 

[+Extesian]

@Calderis I'm not sure why, have I missed a logical step? Liss had Szeth and sold him to Klade, yeah. And Klade didn't know Szeth's powers until Szeth was pressed and admitted them. But why does that mean that Liss wouldn't have known about them? Sure, if she wanted a good price for him she may have wanted to mention it, but I don't think failure to is proof that Liss didn't know. Or am I missing something here?

[Calderis]

Just now, Extesian said:

@Calderis I'm not sure why, have I missed a logical step? Liss had Szeth and sold him to Klade, yeah. And Klade didn't know Szeth's powers until Szeth was pressed and admitted them. But why does that mean that Liss wouldn't have known about them? Sure, if she wanted a good price for him she may have wanted to mention it, but I don't think failure to is proof that Liss didn't know. Or am I missing something here?

I suppose it would still work, but the thread discussing it proposed that the reason the Parshendi knew is that his powers weren't secret until the Parshendi tossed his Oathstone aside. 

Then again that may be me making assumptions that weren't there. 

[+Extesian]

14 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I suppose it would still work, but the thread discussing it proposed that the reason the Parshendi knew is that his powers weren't secret until the Parshendi tossed his Oathstone aside. 

Then again that may be me making assumptions that weren't there. 

Yeah ok, I get the point. I'd forgotten about the reasoning with Liss. I think that's probably right, I just wanted to qualify it with an explanation that could mean she still knew about the Honorblade. Even if it strains credulity

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Yeah ok, I get the point. I'd forgotten about the reasoning with Liss. I think that's probably right, I just wanted to qualify it with an explanation that could mean she still knew about the Honorblade. Even if it strains credulity

Well, thinking about it, that reasoning should never have applied. We met Szeth's first non-Shin master, and Vstim definitely didn't think he was anything more than a slave. 

I'll keep straining credulity with. Because my favorite theories are either she ttok the blade, or the Shamnate did. 

[Darkness]

57 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Well, thinking about it, that reasoning should never have applied. We met Szeth's first non-Shin master, and Vstim definitely didn't think he was anything more than a slave. 

I'll keep straining credulity with. Because my favorite theories are either she ttok the blade, or the Shamnate did. 

Still possible that she saw the results of Szeth's work and put 2 and 2 together. It's obvious that he was creepy when Liss had him, that some of his previous owners had people die around him, and that he was very good with a shardblade and had some kind of supernatural power (eye witnesses could confirm). She must have known at least that he had a shardblade and strange abilities. It's possible that Liss figured out more.

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, Darkness said:

Still possible that she saw the results of Szeth's work and put 2 and 2 together. It's obvious that he was creepy when Liss had him, that some of his previous owners had people die around him, and that he was very good with a shardblade and had some kind of supernatural power (eye witnesses could confirm). She must have known at least that he had a shardblade and strange abilities. It's possible that Liss figured out more.

Without knowledge of the Honorblades, and how completely pervasive Shardblades are in Vorin society, I find it difficult to think people would connect his powers with the blade unless, like the Parshendi, they held his Oathstone and he was forced to answer.

So yes, if she saw his abilities, and asked where they came from, she could have found out. I don't think find it likely though. 

[ZenBossanova]

So @Extesian and @Calderis  are you saying it was Liss who had the rhythms in her voice, or an incognito Unmade. 

Either of those seem needlessly complicated. I see no reason to expect the Unmade roaming that freely yet. And Liss is just an Alethi. They have not acted aware of the rhythms so far. 

We know the Shin remember things going back to the Final Desolation. And they are advanced in their own way. Isn't it much more likely that it was Szeth with the Rhythms? True, the text as it is, is not perfectly clear. But I hardly see that as a reason to disregard Szeth. 

[Calderis]

@ZenBossanova Liss was a complete side conversation I brought up. Nothing to do with the Rythms. 

The point made was that the the voice in the Rythms was most likely an Unmade, leading Kade to Szeth, implying Gavilar's death was part of Odium's plan. 

The text implies a voice in the Rhythm lead them to ask Szeth about the abilities he does possess, but it does not show that Szeth or the Shin have any understanding of the Rhythms. 

Does the conversation make more sense now? 

Sorry for the side track. Didn't mean to confuse you. 

[+Extesian]

7 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

So @Extesian and @Calderis  are you saying it was Liss who had the rhythms in her voice, or an incognito Unmade. 

Either of those seem needlessly complicated. I see no reason to expect the Unmade roaming that freely yet. And Liss is just an Alethi. They have not acted aware of the rhythms so far. 

We know the Shin remember things going back to the Final Desolation. And they are advanced in their own way. Isn't it much more likely that it was Szeth with the Rhythms? True, the text as it is, is not perfectly clear. But I hardly see that as a reason to disregard Szeth. 

Zen, I’ll try to clarify. Liss doesn’t come into it. The bit about the voice in they rhythms is talking about Klade buying Szeth. Klade is a listener and can attune the rhythms. Eshonai originally thought that Klade bought Szeth on a whim, but Klade subsequently informed Eshonai (and the others) that he had bought Szeth because a voice in the rhythms told Klade to. So the question is, whose voice was in the rhythms, that told a listener to buy Szeth. I hope that makes sense. I don’t have an answer, but it would surprise me if it was Szeth. Szeth is a slave to others (or was at that time), not a player.

Edit - ninja'd by Caldinja

Edited July 4, 2017 by Extesian

[cometaryorbit]

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

For a warrior revolt, you would need there to be communication and a common goal. Otherwise you'd have split loyalty with some fighting to overturn the Shamanate, and others fighting loyally to defend it.

A split situation like that would probably still destroy the warriors-on-the-bottom structure of Shin society, though. In our world, situations of uncertainty and chaos very often lead to various forms of military or warrior-class rule (knights and feudalism arising from the chaos of invasions after the fall of the Western Roman Empire, juntas and warlords in the modern Third World). The split loyalty situation would have to be resolved quickly to avoid ending up with a state of continued civil war or at least low-level continuing violence, and once a rebel group strong enough not to be quickly crushed had arisen, I can't see them accepting a resolution that would put them back at the bottom.

And Shinovar has the same territory as Shin Kak Nish on the Silver Kingdoms map, so it couldn't even be a case of rebel groups splitting off and forming their own nations rather than overthrowing the central leadership.

 

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

 If they are serving voluntarily due to their beliefs, even with communication, the majority would still fight to put down the occasional group of malcontents. 

I'm sure that actually is the situation. However, I don't think that that would be stable over Roshar-history lengths of time; beliefs change. If the current social structure arose shortly after the Heralds left the Honorblades behind, that would be close to 5000 Earth years.

[Lightspine]

9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Quote

 If they are serving voluntarily due to their beliefs, even with communication, the majority would still fight to put down the occasional group of malcontents. 

I'm sure that actually is the situation. However, I don't think that that would be stable over Roshar-history lengths of time; beliefs change. If the current social structure arose shortly after the Heralds left the Honorblades behind, that would be close to 5000 Earth years.

I agree that simply having faith would not allow for such long periods of peace. Perhaps the Shin actually have something which, to their mind, proves their beliefs? This could be something to do with the Honorblades. Perhaps, since they worship the spren, the Stone Shamans could bring people into shadesmar and show them the truth? Similar to the pre-Reod worship of the Elantrians - faith is not needed when you can see your gods. I feel this is much more likely to lead to stability, as long as no evidence appears to question the beliefs (such as the Reod. Or Szeth's claims?).

Edit: oops, I did not mean to say they worship the spren. They worship spirits of the stones and stars. For some reason, I always connected these with the spren, but they're not really the same.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Lightspine

[king of nowhere]

regarding liss, I think if she had knows what szeth could do, she would not have sold him. really, sell someone with an honorblade? shardblades are worth kingdoms, honorblades are worth more than shardblades, and szeth offers a complete package of a shardblade and someone extremely skilled in its use and absolutely trusted.

I am also fairly sure that szeth mentioned during his assassination of gavilar that it was the first time he let some stonewalker see his powers and live.

as for the shin, they are likely to have evolved like every other culture. consider how much cultures on our own world evolve with time. 230 years ago not a single one of the nations had the same flag that it has today (the oldest one is the french one, adopted after the revolution), slavery was widely practiced, and almost every government around was a teocratical absolute monarchy. if we didn't knew it was our world, we would not recongize it. and while globalization and the information era spread social change much faster than in the past, there has never existed in human  hystory a culture that remained the same for 1000 years, much less 5000. Even the roman empire, which lasted a millennia, by the time it was done it had a very different culture, religion, even language compared to when it started. China has probably been the most long-lived monolithic state, or maybe ancient egypt, but both underwent regularly civil wars, revolutions, splits and reunifications.

So, I do not believe the existance of a shin conqueror in the past is in any way significant or has had a deeper influence on the shin. the mongolians were a nomadic people living in steppes, and after the collapse of the empire of gengis kahn they went back to be exactly that. while some conquerors managed to influence culture for centuries, most just... didn't.

[Lightspine]

Quote

No man had ever united the entire continent— not during the Shin invasions, not during the height of the Hierocracy, not during the Sunmaker’s conquest. This was his task, he was increasingly certain. The enemy would unleash his worst terrors: the Unmade and the Voidbringers. That phantom champion in the dark armor.

This came from the second sample chapter that was released this morning! Doesn't bring up much new information, but just wanted to point out the reference. What does strike me is that this Shin conquest was very expansive, its referred to as if it had taken over a significant portion of Roshar. Also, is this list in order of occurance? We know that Sunmaker was after the Hierocracy, so does that place Shubreth before the Hierocracy? It would be interesting to see if that piece of history had survived.

[DiamondMind]

23 hours ago, Lightspine said:

What does strike me is that this Shin conquest was very expansive, its referred to as if it had taken over a significant portion of Roshar. Also, is this list in order of occurance? We know that Sunmaker was after the Hierocracy, so does that place Shubreth before the Hierocracy? It would be interesting to see if that piece of history had survived.

It also mentions Shin invasions, plural, so Shubreth was probably not their only conqueror. 

I do think they were before the Hierocracy, as they were the first one mentioned in both lists. Maybe they are even linked in some way. It could be the the zealotry of the Hierocracy was in response to the "pagan" empire that had recently collapsed.

 

[Lightspine]

Also, with two references now both coming from Oathbringer excerpts, and none from the other books, I'm getting the feeling that this is actually an important historical detail, as if Brandon is trying to get us to notice it right now. I didn't think that way when I first created this topic - it was just some fun speculation, but now I think it might tie into the plot somehow.

2 minutes ago, DiamondMind said:

I do think they were before the Hierocracy, as they were the first one mentioned in both lists. Maybe they are even linked in some way. It could be the the zealotry of the Hierocracy was in response to the "pagan" empire that had recently collapsed.

That does make sense. Perhaps the Hierocracy also covered up details about the use of Honorblades (assuming they were used) which would otherwise have led to pervasive rumors about what the Shin were capable of.

[DiamondMind]

3 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

That does make sense. Perhaps the Hierocracy also covered up details about the use of Honorblades (assuming they were used) which would otherwise have led to pervasive rumors about what the Shin were capable of.

Also ties into the fact that they disparage the KR so heavily. I always found it a little weird that Vorin culture thinks that all the Knights were basically evil and corrupt. If the Shin were openly using the Honorblades to prop up their imperial power and explicitly linking them to the Heralds and KR, the Hierocracy would have a large incentive to discredit them and their connection to past eras in order to cement their power.