[OB] Clue to Odium's Imprisonment? (Spoilers)

[ZenBossanova]

52 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

 

1 hour ago, ZenBossanova said:

Fact: Aimia was scoured for some reason, probably (but not necessarily) around the time of the Desolations. 

Axies said the Scouring wasnt long ago

Quote

It hadn’t been that long since the scouring of his homeland. Just long ago enough for stories and legends to have crept into the general knowledge of most peoples.

 

For an immortal being, just what defines a long time? I really am unclear on the timeline here, and the time scale involved. Evidently, it was long enough for legends to develop. 
I don't know that the Aimians were part of the Oathpact, but they didn't really need to be. I am just suggesting that they were involved in crafting the prison, and let the Heralds put Odium in there.

Or in the very least, they did something that kept Odium imprisoned and it was enough of a danger to Odium, that Aimia was scoured. (Maybe? Timeline unclear). It was certainly enough that the Aimian from the interlude to say that worlds were at stake. I see no reason for Aimians to be weaker in Magic than the humans Surgebinders and the Parshendi Voidbringers. 

[Blightsong]

15 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

For an immortal being, just what defines a long time? I really am unclear on the timeline here, and the time scale involved. Evidently, it was long enough for legends to develop. 
I don't know that the Aimians were part of the Oathpact, but they didn't really need to be. I am just suggesting that they were involved in crafting the prison, and let the Heralds put Odium in there.

Or in the very least, they did something that kept Odium imprisoned and it was enough of a danger to Odium, that Aimia was scoured. (Maybe? Timeline unclear). It was certainly enough that the Aimian from the interlude to say that worlds were at stake. I see no reason for Aimians to be weaker in Magic than the humans Surgebinders and the Parshendi Voidbringers. 

Not "long enough for legends to develop", the quote is "just long enough for legend to develop". This heavily implies it was recent, especially when given to the reader in such an off hand remark. That passage meaning anything else would only serve to confuse casual readers.

Edited June 2, 2017 by Blightsong

[ZenBossanova]

@Blightsong

It is just a good thing Brandon would never do that, mislead people and all. 

Edited June 2, 2017 by ZenBossanova

[Jofwu]

I agree with Blightsong. The wording here and when Jasnah mentions it both suggest it was relatively recent. Probably a few generations back. *Maybe* hundreds of years ago. Not a few thousand years ago. And I disagree with some of the finer points of your four 'facts'.

I don't see how it really matters one way or the other though, so far as it affects the main idea here. Which I understand to be the idea that Odium's prison is a fabrial (in some sense of the word) and that the Aimians guard a secret relating to his imprisonment. I totally agree with that.

The most logical interpretation of the "ends of worlds" comment is that the secret they guard relates to Odium's trap. It strongly suggests to me that they have some knowledge or some item which could be used to free Odium.

The idea that this secret relates to fabrials is less certain to me. But it does fit very nicely.

[Blightsong]

2 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

For an immortal being, just what defines a long time? I really am unclear on the timeline here, and the time scale involved. Evidently, it was long enough for legends to develop. 
I don't know that the Aimians were part of the Oathpact, but they didn't really need to be. I am just suggesting that they were involved in crafting the prison, and let the Heralds put Odium in there.

Or in the very least, they did something that kept Odium imprisoned and it was enough of a danger to Odium, that Aimia was scoured. (Maybe? Timeline unclear). It was certainly enough that the Aimian from the interlude to say that worlds were at stake. I see no reason for Aimians to be weaker in Magic than the humans Surgebinders and the Parshendi Voidbringers. 

While i agree that the secret probably relates to Odium's prison, it isn't too far an intuitive leap to think that whatever the secret is would simply help Odium win this desolation, presumably allowing him to escape. It doesn't have to be directly related to his prison.

[ZenBossanova]

16 minutes ago, Blightsong said:

While i agree that the secret probably relates to Odium's prison, it isn't too far an intuitive leap to think that whatever the secret is would simply help Odium win this desolation, presumably allowing him to escape. It doesn't have to be directly related to his prison.

This is entirely correct. 

Honor and Cultivation, themselves, are the most likely architects of the actual prison. But the Aimians may have a small scale insight into how that works. I suspect anyway. 

[ZenBossanova]

Two thoughts: why can we still hear death rattles from long dead people? Why have they not gone to the Spiritual Realm? Has the same thing that has trapped them also trapped Odium? 

Second, I think Aimia was scoured by the Skybreakers, using their surges of Division and Gravitation. Considering it is located behind Shinovar, it should have topsoil, but that is completely missing. If Gravitation was used, it could explain why the word Scour was used. 

Thirdly, it is interesting in Edgedancer,  

Spoiler

just how merciless the Aimian was against the Skybreakers. He didn't even give them a chance. Perhaps he holds a grudge because it was the Skybreakers who scoured Aimia

Perhaps the Skybreakers attacked Aimia, for the same reason they have been killing proto-Radiants. 

Attacking enmass, they are the only group I can think of, that exists after Recreance, who would have a chance of killing them.
One quote from the Aimian in favor

Spoiler

"Ancient Radiants called me friend and ally before everything went wrong". 

One quote in possible opposition

Spoiler

"[Nale] knows to stay way from me and my kind".

 

[The One Who Connects]

Just now, ZenBossanova said:

Two thoughts: why can we still hear death rattles from long dead people? Why have they not gone to the Spiritual Realm? Has the same thing that has trapped them also trapped Odium? 

• I don't think we can hear a rattle from a long-dead person because of how it has been described: "Moelach offering people a glimpse as they pass on" or something close to that. So each person sees something different(probably) and says what they see(as cryptically/succinctly as it may be)
• The Spiritual Realm is not the Beyond.
• I don't see what you mean by "same thing that trapped them" Who is them?

4 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

Perhaps the Skybreakers attacked Aimia,

I don't think they did, if only because Radiant-kind being involved in any large capacity should have some part in the legends of the Scouring. If the Scouring was known about in other areas of Roshar, I think somebody would've mentioned mystical beings raining destruction and made some connection.

The reason I think that other parts of the world know about it has to do with the fact that a race of long-lived beings, one of whom remembers times pre-Recreance, should have memory of the Scouring and not need legends, but that's my personal opinion.

[ZenBossanova]

9 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I don't think we can hear a rattle from a long-dead person because of how it has been described: "Moelach offering people a glimpse as they pass on" or something close to that. So each person sees something different(probably) and says what they see(as cryptically/succinctly as it may be)

Ok, on closer inspection, I can't argue this one. 

 

9 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I don't think they did, if only because Radiant-kind being involved in any large capacity should have some part in the legends of the Scouring. If the Scouring was known about in other areas of Roshar, I think somebody would've mentioned mystical beings raining destruction and made some connection.

The reason I think that other parts of the world know about it has to do with the fact that a race of long-lived beings, one of whom remembers times pre-Recreance, should have memory of the Scouring and not need legends, but that's my personal opinion.

And just what are those legends, precisely? Axies just mentions legends and stories among mankind, but never says what they are. It is mankind that has the stories and legends. And if 99.9% of the Aimians died, who would be around to tell those stories? 

They are the only ones able, and with a plausible motive. If proto-Radiants are a danger, then wouldn't fabrial making Aimians also be a danger? The only argument against this, is that the Aimians are not currently being hunted. But then, they are not currently making Aimian-Fabrials either. 

Notice just how merciless the Aimian in Edgedancer was to the Skybreakers. Why? He treated Lift kindly and fondly remembered the Radiants. But he killed both of them with barely a hesitation or otherwise motivation. 

[Calderis]

The animosity of the Dysian towards the Skybreakers does lend some credence to the idea of them being the ones to enact the scouring. 

The only thing that really makes me question it is that there are records that speak about the Scouring. 

When Jasnah is having Shallan study about Gavilar's death this interaction happens. 

tWoK ch 36. The Lesson 

Quote

Shallan set her jaw. “What did the Parshendi have that King Gavilar wanted?”

Jasnah smiled, closing her eyes again. “Closer. But you can probably guess the answer to that.”

“Shards.”

Jasnah nodded, still relaxed in the water.

“The text doesn’t mention them,” Shallan said.

“My father didn’t speak of them,” Jasnah said. “But from things he said…well, I now suspect that they motivated the treaty.”

“Can you be sure he knew, though? Maybe he just wanted the gemhearts.”

“Perhaps,” Jasnah said. “The Parshendi seemed amused at our interest in the gemstones woven into their beards.” She smiled. “You should have seen our shock when we discovered where they’d gotten them. When the lanceryn died off during the scouring of Aimia, we thought we’d seen the last gemhearts of large size. And yet here was another great-shelled beast with them, living in a land not too distant from Kholinar itself.

This seems like it was an effort on the part of nations. If it were an offensive perpetrated by a secret group of surgebinders, I don't think it would be so... Known. 

[Jofwu]

7 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

Notice just how merciless the Aimian in Edgedancer was to the Skybreakers. Why? He treated Lift kindly and fondly remembered the Radiants. But he killed both of them with barely a hesitation or otherwise motivation.

I think you're assuming way too much with the Skybreakers. There are a thousand explanations of why he may have killed them, and I tend to think Arclo was being honest. Reread that section (chapter 18). He considers Lift to be an ally, and claims he killed the Skybreakers because they asked for a fight. I wouldn't be surprised if he's not happy with what they are doing (on behalf of Nale).

I also think the Scouring didn't happen that long ago. Jasnah talks about it as something that happened in Alethkar's recent past. And Axies says it was "just long enough" for stories and legends to be well known. The Scouring was maybe a couple of generations back- not some ancient event.

[The One Who Connects]

10 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

And just what are those legends, precisely? Axies just mentions legends and stories among mankind, but never says what they are. It is mankind that has the stories and legends. 

This was my point. Mankind has legends of the event, and mankind hates radiant-kind. If Skybreakers were as involved as you want to assume, there would have to be some mention of radiant-kind being involved if it was a multi-national effort like Calderis says.

Even if the Scouring happened a few centuries pre-Hierocracy, that's still at least 1000 years after the Recreance. The sudden reappearance of Surgebinders would be just as big a deal then as it is now in Everstorm times. I feel like Jasnah and her studies would have found some reference to them, but all that gets mentioned is the Lanceryn.

[ZenBossanova]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

This was my point. Mankind has legends of the event, and mankind hates radiant-kind. If Skybreakers were as involved as you want to assume, there would have to be some mention of radiant-kind being involved if it was a multi-national effort like Calderis says.

The only way for there to be accurate stories about what happened, is if there were survivors. 
And if there is a huge disaster, do you believe the guy who says he saw warriors from myth, or the guy who says it was a natural disaster of some kind? All we know is that mankind knows there was a disaster, and they have some stories about what happened. Not history, just stories and legends. If it had been a multi-national war, there would be solid history. Humans have a hard time getting to Aimia at all. But Radiants who can fly, and have the power of Division (which could be the most useful against an Aimian) could get there, and would have the ability to fight them. 

I suggest it was a covert operation, and it was covered up as much as possible. The Skybreakers have been keeping hidden for a long time, and killing proto-Radiants for a long time. I suspect, that at some time in the last 1500-800 years, they decided that they really should add Aimian Fabrial-smiths (and anyone who could make them) to the list of people to kill. I used 1500-800 years as a rough guess based on how long it takes legends to develop. That is the amount of time ago that King Arthur (late 5th century) and Robin Hood (late 12th century) happened. 

[Calderis]

@ZenBossanova the Aimians may be keeping people from reaching Akinah, but I doubt all of Aimia is off limits. 

The Lanceryn of Aimia, as per the words Jasnah said in my chapter quote, we're at one time a primary source of gemhearts. People had to have traveled there to hunt them. The "scouring" the name itself implies action, not a natural occurance. Scouring is an intentionally act of cleaning/removing.

If it were covert, it was a complete failure. There may be complete records, or they may have been altered removed during the hierocracy for some reason.

There is a sense of common knowledge to the scouring,  that implies out biggest problem is lack of information due to story relevance. Not because it doesn't exist. 

[The One Who Connects]

8 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

The only way for there to be accurate stories about what happened, is if there were survivors. 

That was why I mentioned the possibility that it was a multi-national effort against the Aimians. The winning side would have a lot of survivors to tell stories of conquest, which, as Calderis says, appear to exist(romanticized as stuff like King Arthur may be, somebody had to see the real event to make the legends.)

9 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

And if there is a huge disaster, do you believe the guy who says he saw warriors from myth, or the guy who says it was a natural disaster of some kind? All we know is that mankind knows there was a disaster, and they have some stories about what happened.

The more devastated Aimia was, the more believable the warriors from myth story gets, unless Aimia has a history of natural disasters.

• If Aimia became the charred forest, then I'd believe it was a forest fire.
• If everything in a 7 mile radius crumbled to ash(no skeletal trees or anything, just stacks of ash), I'd think something was up.

And since fire was attributed to Dustbringers, normal Division(splitting molecular bonds) should look different/more distinct than fire damage, especially if it was used offensively against Sleepless Cremlings. Pockmarked ground where it was fired at cremlings would be very hard to pass off as "natural."

[+Extesian]

 I'm starting to wonder if it was an Unmade, given I've recently mostly changed my mind on how long the Unmade have been active and how long ago Aimia was scoured. Not necessarily just an Unmade, but one influencing others perhaps. The scouring of Aimia feels a lot like Odium preparing for the Everstorm.

[ZenBossanova]

5 hours ago, Extesian said:

The scouring of Aimia feels a lot like Odium preparing for the Everstorm.

I would agree, except that I still think the Skybreakers were the ones doing the dirty work. (No, I can't prove my case. We will just have to see how things shake out)

In any case, yes, Odium-inspired. If one the the Heralds is a traitor, it might have been direct orders. 

[+Extesian]

19 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said:

I would agree, except that I still think the Skybreakers were the ones doing the dirty work. (No, I can't prove my case. We will just have to see how things shake out)

In any case, yes, Odium-inspired. If one the the Heralds is a traitor, it might have been direct orders. 

While I am sceptical of the skybreakers for the reasons talked about earlier it's certainly possible. Nale is insane but could also be susceptible to an Unmade? Very speculative though. 

[The Lhurgoyf]

Hypothesis - Roshar is Odium's prison. Either highstorms could be the natural result of Stormlight leaking from an imperfect sphere (and considering Roshar's mountainous terrain, we couldn't call it a perfect sphere), or the everstorm is what happens when you crack the sphere and Stormlight starts to leak.

Separate, more likely hypothesis - Roshar is Cultivation's prison.

Edited June 14, 2017 by TheLhurgoyf

[+Wax]

One Shard dead or dying... another one imprisoned.  And a plan by the former to beat the latter as a final checkmate.

Did we see a similar plotline in a different series? 

Edited June 27, 2017 by axcellence

[Kav]

Could Cultivation have created Odium's prison in the same way that Preservation created Ruin's - of herself? The word 'slammer' is after all a slang term for prison. Obviously it can't have been done in the exact same way as she hasn't lost her mind, but I'd say it could at least be an implication that she is in some way his jailor. For some reason I imagine Honor and Cultivation working together to imprison him, maybe Honor managed to bind him to some sort of Oath (hence the Oathpact's involvement) and this allowed Cultivation to imprison him.

[Mason Wheeler]

On 6/26/2017 at 7:48 PM, axcellence said:

One Shard dead or dying... another one imprisoned.  And a plan by the former to beat the latter as a final checkmate.

Did we see a similar plotline in a different series? 

There are a lot of things that make Roshar look like a bigger, more epic Scadrial.  (The Listeners being a race that draw upon the power of an evil god, who go to extreme lengths to be free of his influence, definitely look familiar for example...)

[Yitzi2]

On 6/29/2017 at 8:28 PM, Kav said:

Could Cultivation have created Odium's prison in the same way that Preservation created Ruin's - of herself? The word 'slammer' is after all a slang term for prison. Obviously it can't have been done in the exact same way as she hasn't lost her mind, but I'd say it could at least be an implication that she is in some way his jailor. For some reason I imagine Honor and Cultivation working together to imprison him, maybe Honor managed to bind him to some sort of Oath (hence the Oathpact's involvement) and this allowed Cultivation to imprison him.

The way Hoid speaks of Cultivation sort of suggests that she's still around in a way that Preservation wasn't.

[Kav]

@Yitzi2 I know, that why I said it obviously couldn't have been done in the exact same way. However I can certainly see it being possible that she gave up/is using some of her power to contain him. 

[cometaryorbit]

Do we know that Odium was imprisoned by "enemy action?"

In Mistborn: Secret History,

Spoiler

Preservation says he can't leave Scadrial, and Ruin only could if he succeeded in destroying the planet.

So Odium may be unable to leave the Rosharan system simply because he's Invested in Braize.

IMO the "Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it." WOB is non-specific enough that it could just mean that Odium invested in Braize as part of his war against Honor and the Heralds.