Dalinar's wife and the Nightwatcher

[Raistlin]

What are the theories about Dalinar's wife and the Nightwatcher?

I think that she must have died very closely to Dalinar's visit to Nightwatcher, and there is a connection (maybe even the cause of or the result of) but I can't guess what it is.
The best I could come up with is that Dalinar wanted to know something (perhaps about his brother's assassination -what did he know/ planned to do that was so dangerous) badly enough to risk a trip to the Nightwatcher and she gave him that knowledge (or pointed him in the right direction) and in return took away the knowledge about his wife. Possibly with the physical removal of said wife.
Or maybe he was involved in her death somehow and wanted to forget, in which case the forgetfulness is actually the boon and the curse is something else.
 

Either way, I'm curious about what others have to say about that.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Raistlin
spelling

[James Baxter]

I'm not sure about how/why she died, but I have seen a few hypotheses on the forums about the boon and curse possibly being the same thing. He might have asked the Nightwatcher for a way to overcome his sadness of his wife's death, and She then made him forget her entirely. He doesn't miss her because he doesn't know her (boon), but he has whole parts of his memory, those of her, gone forever (curse). 

Some people find this a little too poetic of a curse/boon combo, since it's stated that the boons and curses do not have to, and a lot of times don't, correlate to each other. 

 

[Nuatoma]

I was reading WoR last night and read the passage where Dalinar visited Kaladin in the prison.  During the exchange they talk about Elhokar and the Roshone affair.  I don't have the book in front of me so I don't have exact words, but during the conversation Dalinar was explaining why he didn't prevent Elhokar from doing what he did to Moash's grandparents.  He was going to tell Kaladin where he was, but then seemed to hesitate as he thought, and then ended up just saying he was 'away.'  

The hesitation of his response got me thinking of where he could have been.  Maybe at the Shattered Plains, as I believe this happened after the war started (if I remember right, Roshone was sent to Hearthstone about 4 years(?) before WoK begins, and the war started about 6 years (?) before), but he wouldn't worry about Kaladin knowing he was at the Shattered Plains.  My thought is that he was visiting the Nightwatcher, and was hesistant to tell Kaladin that is where he was since it is sort of taboo.

This is the more theory part of my response.  Dalinar was still in his warlord form at the beginning at the war as he had accumulated a lot of gem hearts.  He could have left during the war to visit the Nightwatcher, and that began his gradual change to the man he is currently.  Perhaps his high storm visions started occuring either directly because of his visit, or indirectly because he was turning into a person who would actually head the visions.

I guess this thought is more related to the timeline of the Nightwatcher visit rather than the boon/bane side of it.  Also, I've resigned myself to just wait and read what happened to shshshsh because right now I feel like everything is just speculation with not much to go on. (Though I guess that's what we love to do anyways

 

[Obnoxiousspren]

I actually haven't seen anybody present my personal theory on this one yet, although maybe I just haven't looked hard enough. I think the boon Dalinar asked for was something along the lines of getting another chance with Navani or that she would fall in love with him. If this was the case then the curse (if it is indeed the curse) of forgetting about his old wife completely would be pretty fitting in my opinion. We also know that Dalinar doesn't consider himself to have always been a good person. In addition we know that he felt extremely guilty courting Navani in the beginning.

Besides, how great of a plot twist would this be?! If he wished for another chance with Navani before Gavilar's death, then Dalinar might blame himself for what happened. If he wished that Navani would fall in love with him, imagine the tension that it would create in their relationship and the story! Sorry, I just think this would be so awesome and I'm kinda set on it. Even if it's just speculation....

[Tesh Any pronouns]

That's an Interesting theory. It also makes since. I'm going to think on it.

[Guest]

Here is a resume of all theories, as best as my knowledge is, being supported with respect to Dalinar's visit to the Nightwatcher. First, I however have to say it is generally admitted Dalinar visited the Nightwatcher during the Roshone event which happened some 7-8 years ago. It thus predates Gavilar's death while being a few years after Shshshsh's death.

1) Dalinar asked to be removed of the pain of losing his wife, but was cursed with forgetting her instead. This is one generic popular theory, it usually is the one people naturally go to as it seems to be the most logical one. It however doesn't seem to follow the Nightwatcers boon/curse patterns as cursing one with something so closely related to the boon is too distinct from other character's experience. Also, the fact Dalinar's visit was many years after Shshshshs's death makes it more unlikely.

2) Dalinar asked to be cured from his jealousy for his brother, but was cursed with forgetting his wife. This one has always been one of my favorite. Dalinar refers to an event, 8 years ago, where he nearly killed his brother. According to the timeline, this event would shortly predates his visit, so the timeline works. Also, present day Dalinar seems incapable to have any critical view of his brother which may mean his memory of him were tampered with. It also follows the typical boon/curse pattern: help him love someone more, but in exchange take away the memory of someone else.

3) Dalinar asked for Renarin to be heal from some unknown sickness and was cursed with forgetting his wife. I do not support this theory. I feel there is little ground evidence for it as Renarin remains sick and nothing within the text ever suggest he ever were sicker. He is autistic and epileptic, but Renarin himself explains how his sickness isn't as bad as people make it sound. Had Brandon asked for such boon, then I would have expected for Renarin's fits to be completely gone. Adolin would have also retain memories of a sicker brother and none of it transpire into this viewpoints. Also forgetting his wife seems to uncorrelated to the boon, too uncorrelated. I thus think this one of highly unlikely, but a lot of readers like it, probably because it deals with Renarin.

4) Dalinars asked something with respect to how his wife died, but was cursed with forgetting her. This one suggests Dalinar is responsible, either intentionally or non-intentionally of his wife's death. This would be a dark secret he ended up thinking was too heavy to carry and he asked to be rid of it, instead he forget everything. Also, The Thrill seems to indicate what is left of Dalinar's memories are... wrong or tampered with. This indicates maybe he asked for his story with her to be... altered. somehow.

5) Dalinar asked to forget his wife, but was cursed with.... something else? It seems a bit too anti-climatic to be true. What is his curse then?

My thoughts are number 2) and number 4) are the most likely, but only Oathbringer will tell us. At least, we know we don't have long left to wait before getting an answer.

[Darkness he/him]

just had a fun thought. I am a big proponent of different investitures disrupting each other. I've used this to explain why the thrill sickens Dalinar as he draws closer to becoming a radiant. But, what if it is Cultivation's magic that is disrupting the thrill? Maybe his boon/curse are being triggered at the moments he becomes sickened in battle. I'm going to have to reread those passages carefully to see what they have in common excellent!

[Stormlightning she/her]

On 5/20/2017 at 8:38 AM, Darkness said:

just had a fun thought. I am a big proponent of different investitures disrupting each other. I've used this to explain why the thrill sickens Dalinar as he draws closer to becoming a radiant. But, what if it is Cultivation's magic that is disrupting the thrill? Maybe his boon/curse are being triggered at the moments he becomes sickened in battle. I'm going to have to reread those passages carefully to see what they have in common excellent!

There's a fair amount of evidence in WoR that the Thrill is something that comes from one of the Unmade. At risk of going way off topic, Taravangian indicates that Death Rattles have been lessening because Moelash(sp?), the Unmade that causes them, has left or gone elsewhere. I suspect that the Unmade go to wherever the most people would use their particular 'gift', which is why Taravangian says that they sometimes have to bring in poor or forgotten individuals to the secret portion of the hospital(more people dying=more attractive to Moelash). There are some issues with this theory, since there's *probably* more people dying on the Shattered Plains than at the hospital.

That said, it would make sense that the Thrill Unmade has stayed at the Shattered Plains since it's been so violent and there's been plenty of opportunity for the Thrill to present itself. But with the succession war in Jah Keved and the rioting in Kholinar, he may have moved off, which could explain why the Thrill is going away--it mentions that Adolin has also felt a lack of the Thrill, and may also mention Sadeas losing it.

 

On topic, I feel disinclined to comment on Dalinar's boon, since I feel we have almost if not NO hints as to what it could be. I agree that when he explains himself as having been 'away' to Kaladin, that's where he was, but there's a good argument against it: If Roshone's ordeal is really when he went to the Nightwatcher, it would be about 4 years ago(WoK time), I believe. For some reason I'm inclined to think it was quite a bit before that, since Adolin and Renarin didn't even know he went, and I seem to remember that he implied it was a long time ago. Is there a reference to how old Adolin was when his mother died?

I don't really think it's related to coveting Gavilar, just because it seems plenty in line with Dalinar's personality that he has just developed a deep sense of loyalty to his brother after all that's happened. After all, Dalinar went through some major character reformation at the guilt of being drunk and useless during the assassination.

I would like to note that one thing Dalinar says is that he is clearly aware of what his boon and curse are. The curse seems obvious, so I'm inclined to think that his boon is also fairly obvious, at least to him. 

[Vissy]

Actually, do we have 100% confirmation that it was Dalinar who went to the Nightwatcher? Do we know that it wasn't his wife who wanted Dalinar to forget about her?

[+Extesian he/him]

9 minutes ago, Rob Lucci said:

Actually, do we have 100% confirmation that it was Dalinar who went to the Nightwatcher? Do we know that it wasn't his wife who wanted Dalinar to forget about her?

Yeah there's been a few confirmations (example below) and we've been told explicitly that we'll read about it in Oathbringer (though I can find immediately).

Quote

QUESTION

When will we find out what the Nightwatcher looks like?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Dalinar in the past visited the Nightwather. The next book , Oathbringer, will be visiting important parts of his [past]. You can postulate that one of those important events might be his visit to the Nightwatcher. 

 

[Vissy]

Awesome. Once again I'm reminded I wish it already was November!

[Darkness he/him]

22 hours ago, Stormlightning said:

There's a fair amount of evidence in WoR that the Thrill is something that comes from one of the Unmade. At risk of going way off topic, Taravangian indicates that Death Rattles have been lessening because Moelash(sp?), the Unmade that causes them, has left or gone elsewhere. I suspect that the Unmade go to wherever the most people would use their particular 'gift', which is why Taravangian says that they sometimes have to bring in poor or forgotten individuals to the secret portion of the hospital(more people dying=more attractive to Moelash). There are some issues with this theory, since there's *probably* more people dying on the Shattered Plains than at the hospital.

That said, it would make sense that the Thrill Unmade has stayed at the Shattered Plains since it's been so violent and there's been plenty of opportunity for the Thrill to present itself. But with the succession war in Jah Keved and the rioting in Kholinar, he may have moved off, which could explain why the Thrill is going away--it mentions that Adolin has also felt a lack of the Thrill, and may also mention Sadeas losing it.

 

On topic, I feel disinclined to comment on Dalinar's boon, since I feel we have almost if not NO hints as to what it could be. I agree that when he explains himself as having been 'away' to Kaladin, that's where he was, but there's a good argument against it: If Roshone's ordeal is really when he went to the Nightwatcher, it would be about 4 years ago(WoK time), I believe. For some reason I'm inclined to think it was quite a bit before that, since Adolin and Renarin didn't even know he went, and I seem to remember that he implied it was a long time ago. Is there a reference to how old Adolin was when his mother died?

I don't really think it's related to coveting Gavilar, just because it seems plenty in line with Dalinar's personality that he has just developed a deep sense of loyalty to his brother after all that's happened. After all, Dalinar went through some major character reformation at the guilt of being drunk and useless during the assassination.

I would like to note that one thing Dalinar says is that he is clearly aware of what his boon and curse are. The curse seems obvious, so I'm inclined to think that his boon is also fairly obvious, at least to him. 

I think you misread my post. I'm not disputing that an unmade causes the thrill (which, as you noted, is separate to the unmade that causes the death rattles). And I know that the unmade are splinters of odium. What I'm saying is that, I assumed the thrill-induced sickness Dalinar feels is honor-investiture messing with the unmade's influence. But now, I'm not so sure... It might be Cultivation-investiture messing with the thrill. Not too likely since it's only been happening recently for him, but possible. I'll have to ask Brandon next month.

[Vissy]

For the Thrill, we do know that the Unmade cause it - Nergaoul in specific has something to do with The Thrill. It's mentioned in a Taravangian interlude in WoR if I remember correctly.

[Stormlightning she/her]

15 hours ago, Darkness said:

I think you misread my post. I'm not disputing that an unmade causes the thrill (which, as you noted, is separate to the unmade that causes the death rattles). And I know that the unmade are splinters of odium. What I'm saying is that, I assumed the thrill-induced sickness Dalinar feels is honor-investiture messing with the unmade's influence. But now, I'm not so sure... It might be Cultivation-investiture messing with the thrill. Not too likely since it's only been happening recently for him, but possible. I'll have to ask Brandon next month.

Ahh. I was thinking that the Thrill is fading just because the Unmade departed. I didn't about the sickness being induced by the presence of the Thrill, which I agree could be related to Honor or Cultivation. Good point. If their investiture really could mess with each other like that, I feel like that would impact the result things like Parshendi becoming Radiant, which could be quite interesting...

[Guest]

On 5/22/2017 at 0:33 AM, Stormlightning said:

That said, it would make sense that the Thrill Unmade has stayed at the Shattered Plains since it's been so violent and there's been plenty of opportunity for the Thrill to present itself. But with the succession war in Jah Keved and the rioting in Kholinar, he may have moved off, which could explain why the Thrill is going away--it mentions that Adolin has also felt a lack of the Thrill, and may also mention Sadeas losing it.

It had been theorize by others Adolin not feeling the Thrill might be caused by Nergaoul having moved away. One counter argument would be he recognizes the Thrill within Eshonai. Another counter argument would be he appears to be the only one incommoded by its disappearance. The last counter argument would be Adolin has been rejecting the Thrill since before it supposedly moved away. It might be Nergaoul moving away made Adolin's rejection easier.

On 5/22/2017 at 0:33 AM, Stormlightning said:

On topic, I feel disinclined to comment on Dalinar's boon, since I feel we have almost if not NO hints as to what it could be. I agree that when he explains himself as having been 'away' to Kaladin, that's where he was, but there's a good argument against it: If Roshone's ordeal is really when he went to the Nightwatcher, it would be about 4 years ago(WoK time), I believe. For some reason I'm inclined to think it was quite a bit before that, since Adolin and Renarin didn't even know he went, and I seem to remember that he implied it was a long time ago. Is there a reference to how old Adolin was when his mother died?

I would need to consult the timeline, but my recollection is Dalinar went to the Nightwatcher three years after his wife's death. There is also a gap in between Roshone sending Moash's parents to die in prison, Dalinar coming back from his trip, Roshone being condemned and him arriving in Heartstone. Adolin and Renarin not knowing is indeed odd. I initially thought it was because the boys didn't typically travel with their fathers, always being left within the secure walls of Kholinar, but I recently found out Adolin, at the very least, usually traveled with his father. He followed him from one warcamp to the other, so why was he left behind this time around? Why doesn't he remember the one time he asked to stay?

Adolin was about 13 years old when his mother died and about 16 when Dalinar seek the Nightwatcher, not long before Gavilar died. 

On 5/22/2017 at 0:33 AM, Stormlightning said:

I don't really think it's related to coveting Gavilar, just because it seems plenty in line with Dalinar's personality that he has just developed a deep sense of loyalty to his brother after all that's happened. After all, Dalinar went through some major character reformation at the guilt of being drunk and useless during the assassination.

Actually, Dalinar attempted on Gavilar's life (or intended to) on a few occasions. While he did love his brother, he also was dead jealous of him and had a hard time controlling those negative feelings. I can easily see why he would try to get rid of those.

[+Extesian he/him]

On 2017-5-23 at 1:17 PM, Darkness said:

I think you misread my post. I'm not disputing that an unmade causes the thrill (which, as you noted, is separate to the unmade that causes the death rattles). And I know that the unmade are splinters of odium. What I'm saying is that, I assumed the thrill-induced sickness Dalinar feels is honor-investiture messing with the unmade's influence. But now, I'm not so sure... It might be Cultivation-investiture messing with the thrill. Not too likely since it's only been happening recently for him, but possible. I'll have to ask Brandon next month.

Here's an unhelpful-helpful non-answer-answer

Quote

QUESTION

Is the reason Dalinar rejects the Thrillbecause he has a connection to the Stormfather through his visions?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The answer is yes, this is part - this is in play. Though you could say the reason he has a connection to the Stormfather also influences the reason he rejects the Thrill, so it may be more correlation than causation, but there’s at least a little causation as well.

 

[Jofwu he/him]

I wondered if the boon was to forget his wife and the curse was Renarin's sickness. But seems like the timeline doesn't work out - - that Renarin showed symptoms at too young an age for this.

[Calderis he/him]

5 minutes ago, jofwu said:

I wondered if the boon was to forget his wife and the curse was Renarin's sickness. But seems like the timeline doesn't work out - - that Renarin showed symptoms at too young an age for this.

I agree the timing is incorrect, but assuming it worked I'd have two questions. 

1. Is Renarin's sickness neurological? All of the curses we've seen seem to be neurological in nature (inverted vision, number hands, etc.) 

2. Can the Nightwatcher curse effect someone other than the person who requested a boon? 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, jofwu said:

I wondered if the boon was to forget his wife and the curse was Renarin's sickness. But seems like the timeline doesn't work out - - that Renarin showed symptoms at too young an age for this.

Except Renarin's sickness is highly consistent with him being autistic: a simple search highlights how the prevalence of epilepsy is increased among autistic individuals. What he has fits perfectly with Internet description of partial epilepsy. I would be seriously surprised if there was more to Renarin's condition. 

[habatab]

Hey guys this post might be a little old now, but what if Dalinar asked the Nightwatcher to make him more like Gavilar? After his assassination, Dalinar was left with knowing he was weak when his brother needed him most, and suddenly his role changed from being a following lackey to that of an important general/ politician. This would also explain why he started going through the changes Gavilar went through towards the end of his life, and could also be why he started receiving visions from the stormfather. It would also make sense that the Nightwatcher's curse on Dalinar was turning him more like his brother by taking away all memories of his wife and destroying a significant portion of Dalinar's independent life. I haven't seen this theory around elsewhere too much, so I was just wondering what ya'll thought about it.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

57 minutes ago, habatab said:

Hey guys this post might be a little old now, but what if Dalinar asked the Nightwatcher to make him more like Gavilar? After his assassination, Dalinar was left with knowing he was weak when his brother needed him most, and suddenly his role changed from being a following lackey to that of an important general/ politician. This would also explain why he started going through the changes Gavilar went through towards the end of his life, and could also be why he started receiving visions from the stormfather. It would also make sense that the Nightwatcher's curse on Dalinar was turning him more like his brother by taking away all memories of his wife and destroying a significant portion of Dalinar's independent life. I haven't seen this theory around elsewhere too much, so I was just wondering what ya'll thought about it.

It sounds possible. After all, when Dalinar returns from the Nightwatcher, he punishes Roshone for his crimes. Is this something that the Blackthorne would have done? Dunno.

What speaks against it is that Dalinar got very drunk at the party, and seemed to behave more like the Blackthorne. So I dont know... it is possible I guess, but there are questions.

Personally, I think that it was one of two possibilities. Either he wanted to forget something about his wife (like her way of death) or he wanted to become less jealous of Gavilar. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, habatab said:

Hey guys this post might be a little old now, but what if Dalinar asked the Nightwatcher to make him more like Gavilar? After his assassination, Dalinar was left with knowing he was weak when his brother needed him most, and suddenly his role changed from being a following lackey to that of an important general/ politician. This would also explain why he started going through the changes Gavilar went through towards the end of his life, and could also be why he started receiving visions from the stormfather. It would also make sense that the Nightwatcher's curse on Dalinar was turning him more like his brother by taking away all memories of his wife and destroying a significant portion of Dalinar's independent life. I haven't seen this theory around elsewhere too much, so I was just wondering what ya'll thought about it.

From what I have gathered, Dalinar was jealous of Gavilar's possessions, not his personality. He was a man who lived by what he could take from others to himself: he never digested his brother got the better of him when it came to Navani. He was also aware of his short-comings, but was helpless to change them. It is thus my leading theory is he asked not to be "like Gavilar", but to stop envying Gavilar.