Theory on the Shin society.

[Rasha]

Hello everyone!

This is my first theory post, and I will try my best to make the progress of my arguments clear. The goal of this post will be to analyze the Shin society, its relation to stone and its inherent pacifism. First let's lay out the basics that everyone knows:

 

• The Shin are extremely pacifists. Drawing blood, fighting, and worse, killing is seen as extremely tabou and if someone commits such an act, he abandons his right as a Shin "citizen"and is seen by his prior peers as someone who is less than a Shin.
• Stone is sacred for them. So sacred that even walking on Stone is considered a blasphemy (the first one that Szeth tells us in his narrative).
• Declaring that a New Desolation is on the way is totally blasphemous.

 

These two facts will be the key of the timeline and analysis I will propose to explain them. To start the analysis, we have to go back very far. So far, that we go back to the prologue of the Stormlight Archive. The day Kalak walks a desolated battlefield, to arrive upon 7 honorblades cast out into the rock and to Jezrien. Thus, they talk, and thus a decision is made: to fade away, letting Taln to his fate. Kalak and Jezrien abandon their honorblades alongside the other, and announce to mankind that the greatest victory has been made: the cycle of Desolation is over. And so it was said that peace everlasting had been won.

Let’s abandon the Heralds Point of View now, and focus on Mankind. Their gods disappeared, announcing an eternal peace. As a testament of the truth, they let their most precious tools encased in Stone. The Heralds will never need these weapons again, and therefore discarded them as useless. The very Heralds of War, that had been protecting mankind left their weapons behind, as a testament to the futility of killing now that Voidbringers are gone.

 

 

My theory is that what would become the Shin society originated from there. After all, if the gods declared warring and fighting as utterly pointless, and as a testament to that left their weapons behind, what greater calling left to Man that to follow them? And thus, killing another human became seen as one of the greatest sacrilege that can be committed in the proto-Shin society. What more sacred than a life, when even the gods turned away from killing to live in anonymity? What more sacrilege that to doubt that the gods themselves bought peace, by thrusting their weapons into stone?

And thus Stone is made sacred, by holding the Covenant of Everlasting Peace. Walking on Stone in Shinovar is walking on the most sacred element, that hold the peace promised by the gods. Before continuing, and to make clearer the worship of Stone in the Shin religion, let me quote Steven Erikson (yeah I’m a fanboy like that):

 

Quote

In ritual, you abased yourselves, I saw it in the courtyard, many times. But the gesture was rote – even in your newfound fear, the meaning of that abasement was lost.

You carve an altar from stone. You pain the image of waves upon the wall and so fashion a symbol of that which you would worship. You give it a thousand names, and imagine a thousand faces. Or a single name, a single face. Then you kneel, or bow, or lie flat upon the ground, making yourselves abject in servitude, and you may call the gesture humble before your god, and see in your posture righteous humility. And by this means you lose the meaning of the ritual, until the ritual itself is meaning. These are not gestures of subservience. Not expressions of surrendering your will to a greater power. This is not the relationship your god seeks, yet it is the one upon which you insist.

 

So the proto-Shin saw Eternal Peace as the most worthy path shown by the gods. And the symbol of that peace was kept by stone. As ages came and passed, the two became slightly separated: The ritual becomes what is sacred, and most Shin may not be able to tell you why Stone is sacred.

Nalan say that Szeth’s people revere the spirits of Stone, but that Him, as a Herald (of Justice) is Szeth’s god. He is even surprised that Szeth does not recognize him. That would not be the case if Nalan only appointed himself as a patron and personal god of Szeth, but it reveals us that Szeth should have made the link by himself and recognized one of his gods, that participated in the Covenant of Eternal Peace.

 

And there we are, at the moment we have a society which revers peace to the point of extremism (which is not a bad thing is itself, mind you), would rather die than to walk on stone, and for whom announcing a Next Desolation is betraying the Greatest Gift the Gods ever left to mankind.

The Shins are a model from our modern point of view: they are one of the only society known to man to have (nearly) eradicated all violence within itself. And to think that all of this is based on a lie is something that I find very tragic. They trusted their gods who told them that they were forever safe from Voidbringuers, and thus followed their deities closely by forsaking violence. But they have been deceived, for the True Last Desolation is coming.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Rasha

[Caevita he/him]

Dang man.  First theory post and you're already making posts I can only dream of.  I love the idea that the Heralds were gods to the Shin more, even, than the Almighty was.  I love the deduction about their refusal to acknowledge the coming of the new Desolation.

My only hesitation is on the worshipping of Stone.  I wonder if it wouldn't make more sense that the Shin reverence of stone preceded the Heralds' abandonment of duty.  Imagine, instead, a scene in which two glowing men appear wearing armor the proto-Shin can have no grasp of (considering Taln assumes he will have to teach humans bronzeworking, it's safe to say the proto-Shin would have been quite primitive, by the standards of modern Roshar).  Now, so far, we are in agreement.  But if those inexplicably powerful beings come to you over the most sacred medium, if they walk over stone to reach you?  What can they be except gods?

From there, I want to go just one step more.  We know that to take up an Honorblade, like Szeth did, is to be shunned, cast out.  But what if the very taking of the Blade entailed blasphemy?  What if the first Truthless was a Shin who simply walked over the stone to reach the Blades?  It's an easy enough scene to picture.  Some young Shin looks out over the sacred ground, sees what was left behind by the gods, and says, "They left it behind for us, didn't they?  They must have intended one such as I to do the unthinkable one day."  So he does, he comes back to his village and announces all he has seen and done.  His village is horrified, he has lost all grasp of the truth (truthless); they cast him out and he, in his frustration, self-loathing, and loneliness, becomes a sellsword surgebinder with a very loose moral code.  The story is told as a tragedy and maybe a few generations later a Shin commits an unthinkable crime which his people are searching for the right punishment for.  Someone brings up this story as the worst possible fate a Shin could suffer under.  They go back and say "You are to walk across the stones, take up a Blade, and kill for the sake of others, but never for yourself."

Rinse and repeat for thousands of years, and that could sum up the Truthless tradition pretty well too.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

I really like this theory, and I am impressed by how you have managed to put together something interesting and realistic from so few hints.

Great job!

[The One Who Connects he/him]

I've had the Shin society started at/near the Circle of Blades idea for a while, but it only explains why they have the blades, nothing more.
Now onto the other things that you've come up with:

• You make a good point that they could consider their Quasi-Godlike Figures saying "the war is over, we won" as validation for their dedication to peace and disdain for soldiers. (Nobody else has tried to explain that aspect of society before IIRC, so nice job)
• I, like Caevita, am hesitant on the logic for why they worship Stone. As Szeth notes in one of his Interludes: "how can they not, when all the land is stone?" I'm not sure there was much of anything else for the Heralds to thrust their blades into.
• I do agree that the Heralds are still Godlike figures to the Shin, while the Stones are not.

All in all, great post. Hope it goes well.

7 hours ago, Caevita said:

 We know that to take up an Honorblade, like Szeth did, is to be shunned, cast out.

Not technically true. To take up a weapon is to be shunned and become a warrior. Some sort of fundamental betrayal is what got Szeth cast out.
Szeth mentions to Nalan that he "would face enemies with Shards, and with power." upon his return to Shinovar. People who have the blades, and know how to use the powers they grant. This implies two things:

1. People are allowed to use the Honorblades without being immediately thrown out. Likely only the priests. And probably only to learn, not to harm.
2. Szeth is aware of this fact, which either means it is common knowledge to the Shin as a whole or he was in a part of the society that did know about it.

[Rasha]

Quote

 

I agree that the link to stone is the most tenuous one in my theory. The only arguments I have in his favor are that the Heralds thrust their weapons into stone, and that with time passing, there has been a confusion between what was sacred (the honorblades), and what contains them (the stone).

 

But as you say, stone is everywhere in Roshar. I think we have a WoB somewhere that what would become Shinovar was not in Roshar originally. I'm looking for it, will post it when I find it.

 

What I guess for next, I have no proof for it so feel free to criticize it. When the Shin society started around the honorblades, they did not worship stone. Not yet. You would have to wait for one event for that : the arrival of refugees from off world that transported a part of their green land with them. So every part of Shinovar, that was made of stone is now made of soil. Every part except the part that hold the honorblades, proof that Stone will hold the promise of peace made by the gods.

As for the refugees, they found a society where violence was the highest crime, I have no doubt that they have no trouble to stay.

 

Again, this part is just wild conjecture, I have no proof, and not any textual evidence to support it, only a wob that I can't find...

Edited April 18, 2017 by Rasha
orth.

[Andy92]

The other reference to stone in the series I can think of is the Stonewards KR order that Taln (Stonesinew) was the head of. The odd part is that Taln was the Herald of War and the Shin go completely against violence. After reading your theory it made me wonder if their worship of stone began as an ode to Taln for his sacrifice to "stop" the Desolations. But I'm not sure if the Shin even knew about what happened to Taln in the first place. 

[Beatsmorn]

Shin are really a mistery. I think their belief is in some way tied with Taln, but not necessary directly.

In Shinovar there are no spren. Also highstorm fades when reaching Shinovar, and this place was chosen to preserve Heralds' weapons. For some reasons Shin consider stone as sacred, except stone in Urithiru, which was not sacred for them. Even more interesting, Urithiru is told to be sacred and protected from the Voidbringers by the rest of the world.

I'm not sure what it means, except one thing. They are REALLY weird thing going on with Investiture in Shinovar. Makes me think of some Investiture-suppresing fabrial or spren. Once i thought the gods of stone Shin worship are spren of Stonewards, now I don't think that they are any spren in Shin at all.

*EDIT*

The only thing that I can think, when thinking about worshipping stone, are thunderclasts. The only stone that Shin are allowed to walk is the one thunderclast cannot transform (Urithiru). Sounds suspicious, doesn't it?

 

Edited April 18, 2017 by Beatsmorn

[Farnsworth]

Maybe it has something to do with crem? We know that crem is "shardpoop", and Shin are fine with soulcast stone. So maybe this issue is with crem? 

[+Wax he/him]

Quote

The Voidbringers are no more, they had told him. The spirits of the stones themselves promised it. The powers of old are no more. The Knights Radiant are fallen. We are all that remains. All that remains. . . . Truthless. (I-10 WoR)

 

Spirit of the stones - sounds suspiciously like spren to me.  Perhaps they are the only spren in Shinovar and are thus revered?

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

On 4/18/2017 at 7:17 PM, axcellence said:

Spirit of the stones - sounds suspiciously like spren to me.  Perhaps they are the only spren in Shinovar and are thus revered?

OK, I'm going to revive this. I think the spirit of the stones are the Heralds, because they are the ones who promised that the Desolations were over. Somehow in the Shin religion, the Heralds were associated with Stone, which makes a lot of sense, considering that they worship both Stone and Heralds. That's my best explanation for that passage. As for why Stones are holy, or are related to the Heralds, I think it's a single answer for both questions, but I don't know yet. It might be the honorblades, but I doubt it. Though I think the whole "don't walk on stone" aspect has to do with how Shinovar doesn't have stone. Maybe something that developed over time, that the only people who walk on stone are the warring outsiders. This would also explain why they don't leave Shinovar, as they'd need to climb a mountain to do it.

As for the whole, no war because the Heralds told us no, I think it fits really well. And that would explain why Szeth suggesting that the Heralds lied, and that a Desolation is coming would be blasphemy to the Shin. My only problem is with the description of how you get Truthless. From one of the interludes in WoK, we know that all soldiers in Shinovar have oathstones. What I suspect is that because of their traditions, they reserve the worst punishment to those who commit religious crimes. Except that instead of a painful death, to the Shin, the worst punishment is to 1. be cast down to be the lowest of the low (the lowest among warriors) and be given an oathstone, 2. to be given an honorblade, to make one a perfect killer, 3. to be forbidden of ending one's own life and 3. by giving the oathstone to an outsider to guarantee that the Truthless will be used, and thus forced to kill. The worst punishment is to be forced to spend the rest of your life killing, over and over and over. The Honorblade is just a guarantee that 1. they will be used for killing, 2. they will be able to kill many, and 3. they won't die easily, so their miserable lives will continue for a very long time. Now, I agree that it's a bit of a stretch, and definitely harsh from a people who abhor killing, but when you think about it, this is exactly what Szeth describes as being the life of a Truthless. He even goes on to describe how on his death there are processes in place for the Shin to retrieve the Honorblade.

[Calderis he/him]

I've mentioned this before but, yes the Shin are a  peaceful people, but they aren't completely opposed to violence, just weapons. 

Szeth knows a Shin devised martial art. Kemmer. People completely opposed to violence do create a method of fighting. 

[Lightspine]

There are a few aspects which I think are missing a bit from this discussion.
First of all, when speaking with Nan, Szeth says that the gods of the Shin are the spirits of the stars and the stone. Nan says that Szeth does not worship them, and that Nan is one of his gods. (Please correct me if I got this paraphrasing wrong, I don't have the book with me right now).
Secondly, Szeth calls the Sun the "god of gods". How is this belief related to the others? We know (from above) that they worship the spirits of the stars. The Sun is the nearest star.
Lastly, their treatment of stone is just bizarre. They certainly see it as sacred, and that is the reason they consider mining and building with stone blasphemous. But walking on stone seems to be different - when Szeth is in Urithiru, he says he can walk on the stone there, not because it isn't sacred, but because it is especially sacred. It's the only place in the world where the "stones aren't cursed."

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

One last thing to mention:  they worship both the sun and the moon. 

[Landis963 he/him]

23 hours ago, Lightspine said:

There are a few aspects which I think are missing a bit from this discussion.
First of all, when speaking with Nan, Szeth says that the gods of the Shin are the spirits of the stars and the stone. Nan says that Szeth does not worship them, and that Nan is one of his gods. (Please correct me if I got this paraphrasing wrong, I don't have the book with me right now).
Secondly, Szeth calls the Sun the "god of gods". How is this belief related to the others? We know (from above) that they worship the spirits of the stars. The Sun is the nearest star.
Lastly, their treatment of stone is just bizarre. They certainly see it as sacred, and that is the reason they consider mining and building with stone blasphemous. But walking on stone seems to be different - when Szeth is in Urithiru, he says he can walk on the stone there, not because it isn't sacred, but because it is especially sacred. It's the only place in the world where the "stones aren't cursed."

He calls the stones of Urithiru "unhallowed", or unblessed.  He's saying he's not penalized for walking on stone in Urithiru because it doesn't qualify for whatever reverence the Shin have for stone.  

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

1 hour ago, Landis963 said:

He calls the stones of Urithiru "unhallowed", or unblessed.  He's saying he's not penalized for walking on stone in Urithiru because it doesn't qualify for whatever reverence the Shin have for stone.  

This makes me think of how the shin only buy soulcast metal. Thus the reason Urithiru is fine might be because it was soulcast stone. That is if it was soulcast stone. I can't remember if we ever had that confirmed.

OK. Here comes a crazy half baked idea: whay if the reason they don't mine stone or walk on it is because of how some of the desolation species came from stone,  like the thunderclast. So they avoid stepping on or digging out stone,  unless it's is soulcast,  seeing as the desolation species don't come out of soulcast stone.

Taking it one step farther, what if Urithiru was built completely of soulcast material because that way it would be a guaranteed safe haven during the desolations?

Thoughts? 

[Penumbra]

4 hours ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

This makes me think of how the shin only buy soulcast metal. Thus the reason Urithiru is fine might be because it was soulcast stone. That is if it was soulcast stone. I can't remember if we ever had that confirmed.

OK. Here comes a crazy half baked idea: whay if the reason they don't mine stone or walk on it is because of how some of the desolation species came from stone,  like the thunderclast. So they avoid stepping on or digging out stone,  unless it's is soulcast,  seeing as the desolation species don't come out of soulcast stone.

Taking it one step farther, what if Urithiru was built completely of soulcast material because that way it would be a guaranteed safe haven during the desolations?

Thoughts? 

Interesting theories all around. I like the theory that Shin won't step on stone because of thunderclasts...  In that case though I imagine it would be because they would consider stone to be a weapon of a sort, which would be looked down upon, and I mostly get the impression Shin revere stone in a positive light rather than a negative one. (Unless you can get positive thunderclasts ...?) It would make sense that Urithiru is made to be "thunderclast safe".

I'm no master theorist and lagging a little behind on some information I think, but how much do we know of how (and by whom) thunderclasts are made, really? In a vision Dalinar sees a spren bring one out of the purelake ground ... so I guess a sleeping, peaceful thunderclast might be a spren of the stone before being corrupted, which I suppose would be something to revere (especially if you'd seen them come to life!). I'd be very careful to step on a potential thunderclast's back.

[Rasha]

On 8/27/2017 at 6:33 PM, Lord Maelstrom said:

One last thing to mention:  they worship both the sun and the moon. 

 

I have a hunch on that, but I but at this point, this is wild conjecture. 

We know the heralds could surgebind without Stormlight. While doing so, they might have emitted far more light than a Knight using just sphere, as a larger quantity of power is forced through the body. To the nearby observer, it should have been quite impressive, maybe blindingly so. 

The gods (Heralds) are seemingly getting the power to surgebind out of thin air, or rather as if they are fueled by the sun itself, or the moon if they surgebind at night. Would it be a big leap then to define the sun and the moon as the god of the gods, giving them the power to stop the desolation?

 

It's not a big logical leap, but it still is wild conjecture and therefore to be taken with a pinch (or a handful) of salt. 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

1 hour ago, Rasha said:

 

I have a hunch on that, but I but at this point, this is wild conjecture. 

We know the heralds could surgebind without Stormlight. While doing so, they might have emitted far more light than a Knight using just sphere, as a larger quantity of power is forced through the body. To the nearby observer, it should have been quite impressive, maybe blindingly so. 

The gods (Heralds) are seemingly getting the power to surgebind out of thin air, or rather as if they are fueled by the sun itself, or the moon if they surgebind at night. Would it be a big leap then to define the sun and the moon as the god of the gods, giving them the power to stop the desolation?

 

It's not a big logical leap, but it still is wild conjecture and therefore to be taken with a pinch (or a handful) of salt. 

My theory? This is the same religion as Trelagism from Mistborn. Mistborn as well as White Sand spoilers:

Spoiler

So, this is going off of a different theory, but here it goes. There is a WoB saying that there are entire Pantheons in which every member is Autonomy. What if Trelagism (Which worships the Sun and the Moon. (Maybe the stars too, can't remember)) is one such pantheon. It makes sense, since Autonomy is already connected to Taldain's Sun, plus there are theories of Trell being Autonomy. Anyways, what if Autonomy also spread it out to other planets, trying to spread her religion everywhere. Thus you might find the Shin on Roshar worshiping Autonomy, or at least following a religion based on her's. Also, aren't there theories that the Shin didn't come from Roshar originally?

Anyways, all that to say that I think we might be dealing with a Shard based religion here once again.

[Sparkrunner he/him]

Warning: Oathbringer Sample Chapter Spoilers

 

Spoiler

The theories about the shin being peaceful because of a warlike past are apparently true, hence this offhand mention in chapter two of Oathbringer:

Quote

"I will unify Roshar.” - Dalinar

Kalami gasped softly. No man had ever united the entire continent— not during the Shin invasions, not during the height of the Hierocracy, not during the Sunmaker’s conquest. This was his task, he was increasingly certain. The enemy would unleash his worst terrors: the Unmade and the Voidbringers. That phantom champion in the dark armor.

So apparently- the shin tried to take over the world at some point.

 

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by Roadwalker
*Sticks out tounge at Calderis*

[Calderis he/him]

@Roadwalkerdude. There's spoiler boxes for a reason. Edit your post, highlight everything you want hidden, and press the eyeball button. 

Big flashy spoiler warnings don't hide the words. Spoiler boxes do. 

[FiveLate]

On 8/27/2017 at 1:33 PM, Lord Maelstrom said:

One last thing to mention:  they worship both the sun and the moon. 

Wait....does it say "sun and moon" or "sun and moons".....that could be important since Roshar has 3 moons....do they worship a specific one?  Because of their orbits, they are believed to be artificial....

[Steeldancer he/him]

On 8/29/2017 at 1:10 AM, Rasha said:

 

I have a hunch on that, but I but at this point, this is wild conjecture. 

We know the heralds could surgebind without Stormlight. While doing so, they might have emitted far more light than a Knight using just sphere, as a larger quantity of power is forced through the body. To the nearby observer, it should have been quite impressive, maybe blindingly so. 

The gods (Heralds) are seemingly getting the power to surgebind out of thin air, or rather as if they are fueled by the sun itself, or the moon if they surgebind at night. Would it be a big leap then to define the sun and the moon as the god of the gods, giving them the power to stop the desolation?

 

It's not a big logical leap, but it still is wild conjecture and therefore to be taken with a pinch (or a handful) of salt. 

They used to be powered directly by honor. I got that WoB myself. It's sort of like 

Spoiler

How Vin powers Elend at the end of HoA. 

 

[Rasha]

I know that Heralds were powered by Honor directly. I was just saying that to onlookers that were not aware of the fact, it might look like the Heralds were powered by the Sun/Moon. But again, this is just conjecture.

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom he/him]

14 hours ago, FiveLate said:

Wait....does it say "sun and moon" or "sun and moons".....that could be important since Roshar has 3 moons....do they worship a specific one?  Because of their orbits, they are believed to be artificial....

OK. Need to appologize. It's actually Sun and the Stars, not sun and moon. Not sure where that came from.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 8/29/2017 at 5:07 PM, Roadwalker said:

are apparently true

Potentially* true. You are making an assumption without enough evidence.
Is the law in place because of a criminal, or is the man a criminal because of the law? Clarified analogy via Oathbringer spoilers

Spoiler

Just because there was a Conqueror in Shin history, that doesn't mean he predates the dedication to peace. He could easily have rebelled against it. He could even have been a truthless who gained influence with some local people. Depending on how long ago the invasions happened, they may only remember that the leader was a Shin

Remember that people defy societal norms all the time. Further reading here.

Edited September 13, 2017 by The One Who Connects