Gavilar bringing about a Desolation

[The Technovore]

Aiight so I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this, or even the first to share this here, but on the off chance I am, here we go.

A paragraph in Eshonai's first chapter in Words of Radiance says: "What she wouldn't have given to be able to go among them unnoticed... Insead, she and the others had ordered the murder of the Alethi king in a desperate gambit to stop the listen gods from returning."

We already know that the "listener gods" are actually Odium (and perhaps the Unmade?), and their power caused the Parshendi to turn into civilization-destroyers every Desolation. So this makes it seem like Galivar was trying to return the Desolation's, or at least was messing with things that would ultimately result in that.

Then, much later in the book, Shallan infiltrates Amaram's house manor keep residence, and comes to the conclusion that he's trying to bring about the Desolations. It seems like the most rediculous thing ever, until Shallan later gets in the same room with "the madman". Amaram ends up entering that same room, where, upon expecting the madman, says: "Ah... Almighty above, ten names, all true. You are beautiful. Gavilar, we have done it. We have finally done it." *mic drop*

Any doubt that Gavilar and Amaram weren't trying to bring back the Desolations has just gone out the window. Not only that, but we find out that they're working together. But why? Why would they want those horrifying events to come about again?

Here's where it turns to speculation.

Note here that towards the end of his life, before Galivar mistakenly made his intentions clear to the Parshendi, he focus on the codes of Honor. He read the Way of Kings. He 'blathered' on about how things used to be.

I propose that Galivar was trying to bring a return to the days before the last Desolation. I believe that what ever educated him on the matters of Shards caused him to realize that, given enough time, humanity would weaken itself enough for Odium to be able to take over with ease. So what was he to do? He couldn't attempt to establish a new religion to educate people, even for the Alethi King it simply wouldn't be possible. 

I believe that, much like Tarangivan (I probably butchered the spelling on that one), he was trying to cause an event before the actual event. By bringing about the Desolations, the Heralds, and the Knights Radiant, humanity would gain it's former glory, and it's former defense against the onslaught of Odium. Yes it would be devastating. Yes it would kill billions. But it would be better than the permanent end of Humanity on Roshar. 

This is what got Amaram so excited when he saw the Herald. The arrival of the last Herald is the biggest sign of their success. It meant Radiants. It meant a devastating war that would snap humanity back into it's glorious, heroic state.

And with that, I end. I completely expect to wake up in the morning with several holes punched through my perfectly wonderful theory, but that's okay. So I will get some sleep and bid you "Have at it lads!"

[Spoolofwhool]

Luckily, there are no holes to be punched since this conclusion is correct as stated at the end of WoR.

Quote

I can only conclude that we have been succesful, Restares. The reports from Dalinar's army indicate that Voidbringers were not only spotted, but fought. Red eyes, ancient powers. They have apparently unleashed a new storm upon this world.

I do not exult in this success. Lives will be lost. It has ever been our burden as the Sons of Honor. To return the Heralds, to return the dominance of the Church, we had to put the world into a crisis.

That crisis we now have, a terrible one. The Heralds will return. How can they not, with the problems we now face? But many will die. So very many. Nalan send that it is worth the loss. Regardless, I will have more information soon. When I next write you, I hope to do so from Urithiru.

- Amaram, Words of Radiance Chapter 88

 

[The One Who Connects]

Two things to argue.

1) We know the gods the Parshendi abandoned are "of Odium." It's a minor nitpick, but unless he's expressly stated that they are the Unmade, it's still technically a theory.

2) I know he was Cosmere-aware in some respect, but I'm not sure Gavilar was "educated on the matter of Shards" as you suggest. The Sons of Honor might know things they normally shouldn't, but I doubt they have knowledge of the Shards in any grand capacity.

[grayhicks]

well, and i hope we can learn some more, now that shallan. navani, and the scholars can explore urithiru, i would have to guess that the power of hierocracy was pretty high during the time of the desolations. that was the age of the heralds, radiants, and heroes. the church was likely set up, maybe not with the heralds, then using them to propagate their doctrines. im not sure how closely the radiants and the chruch worked, but at least from the point of the view of the sons of honor, the church, the heralds, and the radiants are all closley tied. now remember thats its been 4500 years since this "age of heroes", and a lot of information has gotten either lost or twisted around by past scholars' interpretations and mis-translations. i have to think that gavilar, using his visions, and the other sons of honor, seeing all three of these glorious factions, and the connection they have in fighting the voidbringers, that they hoped that by returning the voidbringers, they could return the others. whether that was for the glory of the church, since i am detecting a hint of religious fanaticism in amaram, or for this theory of the state of civilization just before a desolation, i cant be sure. i can say that likely, during the time of the radiants and heralds, the church held sway over nearly the entire continent. with evidence of their "god" like the heralds and radiants, who could prove them false. i think that given state of readiness for desolations, the modern roshar, at least in terms of technology, are actually ahead of the desolation era rosharians. most of dalinar's visions show a world of bronze, and easily made spears, not modern steel, and anit-shardbearer tactics ans weapons like axes and hammers. those will be effective against the stone based voidbringers. i think that we might be surprised on how ell modern tactics and weapons will prove.

[Calderis]

@grayhicks I think the church existed alongside the Radiants, but was separate from them, and seized power once the Radiants fell. 

Urithiru, requiring a radiant to gain access, should be separated and one of the only places that records would remain uncorrupted by the hierocracy. 

[grayhicks]

its seems likely, that the church, following the recreance, sought to keep the continent united. the memory of desolations was still fresh, and being mortal, we tend to have a seed of skepticism when gods tell us something is certain. call it a mortal fallacy. church could have secretly believed that the desolations were not as over and done with as the heralds had told thme, and so tried the claim the authority and "power" of the radiants for their own. now, if it was for precautionary reasons like i just mentions, or for the greed and ambition of mortal men, like happens so frequently when power falls into the hands of men, who can say at the moment?

[Spoolofwhool]

I'll point out that the Hierocracy didn't happen until some time (centuries, possible millennia) after the Recreance.

[The Sovereign]

10 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

1) We know the gods the Parshendi abandoned are "of Odium." It's a minor nitpick, but unless he's expressly stated that they are the Unmade, it's still technically a theory.

The Listener's Song of Secrets confirms that the Unmade are indeed the Listener's gods.

Quote

Listener Song of Secrets
17th Stanza
Nightform predicting what will be,
The form of shadows, mind to foresee.
As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered.
A new storm will come, someday to break.
A new storm a new world to make.
A new storm a new path to take, the nightform listens.

27th Stanza
Decayform destroys the souls of dreams.
A form of gods to avoid, it seems.
Seek not its touch, nor beckon its screams, deny it.
Watch where you walk, your toes to tread,
O’er hill or rocky riverbed
Hold dear the fears that fill your head, defy it.

40th Stanza
The betrayal of spren has brought us here.
They gave their Surges to human heirs,
But not to those who know them most dear, before us.
’Tis no surprise we turned away
Unto the gods we spent our days
And to become their molding clay, they changed us.

51th Stanza
Smokeform for hiding and slipping ’tween men.
A form of power—like Surges of spren.
Do we dare to wear this form again? It spies.
Crafted of gods, this form we fear.
By Unmade touch its curse to bear,
Formed from shadow—and death is near. It lies.

Final Stanza
Our gods were born splinters of a soul,
Of one who seeks to take control,
Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite.
They are his spren, his gift, his price.
But the nightforms speak of future life,
A challenged champion. A strife even he must requite.

 

 

Edited April 14, 2017 by Iron Eyes

[The One Who Connects]

To add to what Spool has said, Brandon has stayed two things, and given clues about the other.

The Last Desolation: 4,500 yrs ago.

The Hierocracy: 600-700 yrs ago

The Recreance has not been given an exact date, but best estimates put it at 2,200-2,500 yrs ago.

The time gaps between these three events are rather long.

---

My point stands @Iron Eyes: All signs point towards the Unmade, but without a direct confirmation, it remains the most believable theory on this site.

Disclaimer: I don't actually think there are enough unanswered questions for their gods to not be the Unmade, but Brandon practically teaches at the "Is that what you know, or what you believe?" School of Giving Information. It's still doable, but unlikely. This paragraph is only for the purposes of making references I come up with 45 seconds prior.

[Djarskublar]

Another useful timeline tidbit: Honor was probably (has this been confirmed?) killed after the Recreance, since the vision of the Recreance appears to be a memory of Honor's, rather than a prediction. Saying all that just made me come up with a new hypothesis though, so off to post that.

[grayhicks]

actually, i think that the recreance was the result of the Honor's death. that the radiants felt his death through their spren, which cause a religious crisis amongst them and a loss of faith. the spren, through born of the forces of the universe, first gained a semblance of sentience from the Shards of Honor and Cultivation. that sentience was further refined by nahel bonds with rediants, but they still had a connection to the Shards. so they would have felt it when tanavast died, and through them the radiants. how would you fell, when your god died, and you knew it for a fact? its that loss of faith that lead the radiants to abandon their oaths.

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, grayhicks said:

actually, i think that the recreance was the result of the Honor's death. that the radiants felt his death through their spren, which cause a religious crisis amongst them and a loss of faith. the spren, through born of the forces of the universe, first gained a semblance of sentience from the Shards of Honor and Cultivation. that sentience was further refined by nahel bonds with rediants, but they still had a connection to the Shards. so they would have felt it when tanavast died, and through them the radiants. how would you fell, when your god died, and you knew it for a fact? its that loss of faith that lead the radiants to abandon their oaths.

While you state this is your opinion, I have to ask two questions. 

1. If the recreance was a result of Tanavast's death and the shattering of Honor, how was the memory of the event recorded for Dalinar's vision? In every vision he is placed in the role of a person who was there as a participant, except for the one vision that he is told is a possible future, in which there are no roles and Dalinar is himself. If the vision of the Day of Recreance is after Honor's death, why is it presented in the form of a role for Dalinar to play out, rather than an event to observe? 

2. How can Taravangian plan to "hold the secret" that destroyed the Knights Radiant and reuse it to destroy the new orders in this case? It is a literal impossibility for him to reshatter Honor to take out the new knights. 

[grayhicks]

well, honor was a being beyond mortal comprehension. and shards could look ahead in time, if imperfectly. maybe he looked ahead and saw the recreance? and the secret taravangian is mentioning is that Honor, the Almighty, is dead. remember that most of the new coming radiants are vorin in ethnicity. and the vorin religion worshipped Honor, the Almighty as god. how best to shatter a hope, or strength, founded on a religious belief, than to tell them that the very foundation of their culture is lie?

[Calderis]

@grayhicks Dalinar, our only Bondsmith and presumed leader of the new Knights, is sharing his visions openly at this point, including the part about the Almighty being dead. I highly doubt that that is the secret Taravangian spoke of in the diagram. The examples of Radiants we have seen so for have been chosen based on the values the uphold, not on how devout they are. The religion is a man made doctrine and organization, to which the Spren hold no loyalty.

I cannot see any of our main characters struggling due to knowing "God" is dead other than Dalinar, and he has already faced that issue and become a Radiant regardless.

 

On the issue of honor foretelling the recreance, I have no doubt he could have done so, but the one example we have of Tanavast looking ahead, he gives an interpretation. A scene that gives the point of what he sees without the details of human (or any lifeforms) interaction. The vision of that day is filled with detail, people, the place, the name of Feverstone Keep itself. It's possible it's a foretelling from Honor's point of view, but the level of detail in contrast to the vision in which he states it is a possible future makes it seem otherwise to me. 

[ScavellTane]

Was it ever stated that Honor wanted those specific visions sent?

Or was the Stormfather ordered to send visions and he got to choose which.

[Spoolofwhool]

@grayhicks. Brandon has essentially confirmed that Honor's death came after the Recreance. 

[ScavellTane]

Then, could the Heralds departure be part of Honor's plan?

[rjl]

I'm just thinking of the blurb on Way of Kings - which I'm pretty sure was confirmed to be cannon:

Quote

 

"The world became ours, and we lost it. Nothing, it appears, is more challenging to the souls of men than victory itself.

Or was that victory an illusion all along? Did our enemies realize that the harder they fought, the stronger we resisted? Perhaps they saw that the heat and the hammer only make for a better grade of sword. But ignore the steel long enough, and it will eventually rust away."

 

 

Had Gavilar realised that Odium's plan was for no desolations for some extended period of time followed by a crazy horrendous one that would destroy an un-prepared humanity AND therefore to prevent this he needed to trigger a desolation early?

 

I think is what @The Technovore was suggesting above? I just wanted to put it more briefly.