Liss and Taln's Blade.

[Calderis]

So over in this thread we got off on a side tangent about Liss. 

So I was thinking about Liss and think it's possible she may be the one who made the switch. This is wild speculation and I fully admit that. 

So the Honorblades don't appear to be well-known, at least not in the respect that they offer surgebinding abilities. In the WoR prologue though, we see that Liss, the Assassin who Jasnah met with concerning Aesudan, was previously in possession of a certain Shin servant.

Now, before Szeth's Oathstone came into Taravangian's possession, the last time he used his abilities on any kind of a major scale was to kill Gavilar. Taravangian's messenger tells Szeth that he is wasted killing small-time criminals. 

So how did the Parshendi know what Szeth was? What if Liss knew exactly what Szeth was and what his blade did? She delivers him to the Parshendi, and they have their Assassin in white.  

Now, the Weeper already has a Shardblade. If she knows what Szeth can do, then she also knows about the Honorblades.

Taln appears, she makes the connection on what exactly he is. And makes the switch with the Honorblades, for hers. 

Obviously there's a lot of holes here. But I'm super interested in Liss now, and want to continue discussion from the previous thread without derailing it with the addition of Szeth in the conversation. 

Edited April 7, 2017 by Calderis

[Krandacth]

A point very strongly in favour of this is that Nale and Kalak (?) are overheard, on the night of the assassination, talking about someone having "my lord's own blade", and wondering if they are doing the right thing (Jasnah's Prologue).

From this it has been theorised that the Heralds (at least those two) had somehow engineered Szeth into Parshendi hands to stop Gavilar returning the Voidbringers. However, how this could have been achieved was left as a massive question mark.

Having one of their number obtain Szeth to get him in place to be sold to the Parshendi makes a huge amount of sense.

Also, as with other Heralds we've seen, Liss has been described as hard to place, ethnically. So there's that :-P

Edit: I would like to point out that "Liss" would not necessarily have her original Honorblade, as, until recently, the remaining 9 were with the Shin. However, this matches what we know of the Blade Taln ended up with after the swap, which was obviously a dead Spren blade because of the screaming at the end of WoR. And there is no reason a Herald would have had difficulty obtaining one of the discarded Radiants' Blades at some point in their Millennia-long lives.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Krandacth

[The One Who Connects]

Point of Clarification: Does this discussion topic follow the idea that Liss is a normal person who learned things she shouldn't, or the former Herald idea?

It'd certainly help direct the discussion and avoid confusion later. (And tell me if I need to continue the "Liss the Herald" discussion in its own thread so that Aesudan's thread can get back on topic)

Edited April 7, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Argent]

I think at this point it is common knowledge that the Oathbringer prologue PoV is Eshonai - and she touches on how they got their hands on Szeth. I won't go into details, even behind a spoiler tag (the transcript is available somewhere on the forums...), but I'll say that what I've read there seems to be support what Lyss told Jasnah - that Szeth spooked her and she sold him.

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Argent said:

I think at this point it is common knowledge that the Oathbringer prologue PoV is Eshonai - and she touches on how they got their hands on Szeth. I won't go into details, even behind a spoiler tag (the transcript is available somewhere on the forums...), but I'll say that what I've read there seems to be support what Lyss told Jasnah - that Szeth spooked her and she sold him.

I have not read anything from Oathbringer. But I guess that effectively kills this idea. 

37 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Point of Clarification: Does this discussion topic follow the idea that Liss is a normal person who learned things she shouldn't, or the former Herald idea?

It'd certainly help direct the discussion and avoid confusion later. (And tell me if I need to continue the "Liss the Herald" discussion in its own thread so that Aesudan's thread can get back on topic)

I'm fine with both here and people arguing about it. My main goal with this topic was to stop derailing the Aesudan thread. 

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

Great idea creating a separate thread for this @Calderis, as the Liss/Honorblade discussion has grown into its own thing, separate from the Aesudan theories. Anyway, the Szeth connection can potentially explain how Liss would know of the Honorblades (provided she's not a Herald herself). Interesting.

31 minutes ago, Argent said:

I think at this point it is common knowledge that the Oathbringer prologue PoV is Eshonai - and she touches on how they got their hands on Szeth. I won't go into details, even behind a spoiler tag (the transcript is available somewhere on the forums...), but I'll say that what I've read there seems to be support what Lyss told Jasnah - that Szeth spooked her and she sold him.

Ooh Gavilar's assassination from Eshonai's pov? now that will be really enlightening and interesting to read. Back to the topic at hand. From what you're telling us here regarding this prologue, it at best diminishes the likelihood of Liss having learned about the Honorblades form Szeth but doesn't conclusively disapprove it. Of course having not reading the Oathbringer prologue myself, I can't make any concrete assessments about this one way or the other.

59 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Point of Clarification: Does this discussion topic follow the idea that Liss is a normal person who learned things she shouldn't, or the former Herald idea?

It'd certainly help direct the discussion and avoid confusion later. (And tell me if I need to continue the "Liss the Herald" discussion in its own thread so that Aesudan's thread can get back on topic)

We're entertaining both possibilities here in this thread.  Personally though. I lean more towards the 'Liss is a normal person who learned things she shouldn't' idea. That said we can't really dismiss the 'Liss the Herald' as there's nothing disapproving this theory so far, so we're open to discussing both here.      

Edited April 7, 2017 by Gavin-son-son-Odegard

[Weltall]

In order to not further derail the Aesudan topic, I'll respond to some comments directed at me on the subject of Liss here.

17 hours ago, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

@Weltall I don't know how Liss could be a Herald. I mean I know some of them have been seen in Kholinar but why would a Herald start working as an Assassin for hire? specially since Liss seemed to have been doing this for a while, considering what a reputation the 'Weeper' has.

Also Liss doesn't seem insane to me while the other Heralds all are in some way or other. And if she was one, she would already have an Honorblade why take Taln's as well? So nobody else would get their hands on it? Besides were did she find a normal Shardblade to swap for the Honorblade?

Possibly for a similar reason that Nale is working as a freelance constable, taking some of their previous duties/divine attributes and using them in a way that's twisted from their original forms. Assassination instead of fighting bravely (if you imagine Liss is Chana), Shalash destroying examples of creativity that relate to her... We don't know how each Herald's insanity manifests so it's possible one or more can put on a good show of sanity until something causes them to snap.

14 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

It'd still be the slow Stormlight healing like Szeth has, not like Kaladin's since Taln's Blade doesn't have Regrowth. Very minor nitpick, but I'm in a debative mood for some reason.

Also, from one of Brandon's AMA's, the "Heralds have swapped Blades before(but it was very uncommon)" so it's entirely possible for it to power(s) she was familiar with.

Fair point, though any ability to use Stormlight would be an improvement over not having it, so the Honorblade would be an upgrade either way. And I didn't know about that AMA response, very interesting.

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

3 minutes ago, Weltall said:

In order to not further derail the Aesudan topic, I'll respond to some comments directed at me on the subject of Liss here.

Possibly for a similar reason that Nale is working as a freelance constable, taking some of their previous duties/divine attributes and using them in a way that's twisted from their original forms. Assassination instead of fighting bravely (if you imagine Liss is Chana), Shalash destroying examples of creativity that relate to her... We don't know how each Herald's insanity manifests so it's possible one or more can put on a good show of sanity until something causes them to snap.

Good point. This makes a lot of sense actually. Nale went to overzealous constable mode, Chana to badass assassin mode. And I do think that if Liss is a Herald then she's got to be Chana, she's the only Herald that fits here from what we know of her.  

[Argent]

1 hour ago, Gavin-son-son-Odegard said:

Ooh Gavilar's assassination from Eshonai's pov? now that will be really enlightening and interesting to read. Back to the topic at hand. From what you're telling us here regarding this prologue, it at best diminishes the likelihood of Liss having learned about the Honorblades form Szeth but doesn't conclusively disapprove it. Of course having not reading the Oathbringer prologue myself, I can't make any concrete assessments about this one way or the other.

Technically, what the prologue explains (in nowhere near as much detail as I would've liked...) is when and why the Parshendi acquired Szeth. It doesn't say anything about why Liss got rid of him, so it doesn't formally disprove the stuff you have been discussing. Rereading the thread, the only thing the prologue disproves is that Liss went and handed Szeth to the Parshendi. It is still possible that she got rid of him so that the Parshendi can pick him up, and it is still possible that she was aware of certain secrets he knows. 

So I take it back, the prologue doesn't disqualify this idea as strongly as I had previous implied. I still don't like it, but that's a personal dislike - I can acknowledge that it's possible.

[Calderis]

Like I said, it's speculation and I'm not even full sold on it. There's just a large discrepancy in my mind between Szeth being passed around without any knowledge of his abilities, and The Parshendi acquiring him and knowing what he's capable of. 

After Gavilar's death, he was picked up by a random farmer, so it makes sense that no one knew what he could do. But prior to that...

Combined with Liss holding his Oathstone so close to when the Parshendi got him I've got questions about how much she knows. 

If she does know what he is, whether by being a Herald or just asking him questions he's required to answer, she would have the knowledge and ability required to steal the Blade after the WoK Epilogue.

I'm interested in all of this, and open to the discussion,but I recognize that there's just so little we know that we can't do more than speculate. I mean, after 5 or 6 years is Liss even still in Alethkar to steal the blade?

[Gavin-son-son-Odegard]

56 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I mean, after 5 or 6 years is Liss even still in Alethkar to steal the blade?

It's highly likely that she is. Jasnah ordered her to watch Aesudan, and considering everything that's happened since then I don't think she would have changed that order. Also I don't think Brandon would've included that whole scene in the WoR prologue if he wasn't planning to bring it up again at some point.  

Edited April 7, 2017 by Gavin-son-son-Odegard

[The One Who Connects]

4 hours ago, Calderis said:

I mean, after 5 or 6 years is Liss even still in Alethkar to steal the blade?

I have to agree with Gavin-Son-Son-Odegard. Jasnah was considering assassinating Aesudan outright. She then changed it to "watch her until I say otherwise," and given that Aesudan is not dead yet, it's a safe assumption that Jasnah hasn't said otherwise.

The other option is that Jasnah learned enough from Liss's spying to consider Aesudan irrelevant or harmless enough to not need a spy or an assassin. I doubt that, if only because she's a loose end who's breaking Kholinar. If she considered assassination before Aesudan had a chance to screw up, Jasnah isn't letting her off the hook now that she is screwing up.

[Fulminato]

While i was re-reading WoR i concocted a theory for Liss. I'm not 100% confindent in it, but i think it's intersting enough to be shared

inevitable Oathbringer prologue spoiler.

my theory is that Liss is indeed a Herald, but Ash not Chana.

in the WoR prologue we have Kalak (the male herald talking with Nale) speak about four things:

1 - Ash is getting Worse
2 - I'm getting worst
3 - We did something really wrong
4 - That thing (Sezth) hold the Jezrien blade

in the oathbring prolugue "Klade claimed that the voice speaking in the rhythms led him to the man. They claimed it was a sign of what they would do, and that the creature had confided his skills [to them?] when pressed."

I suppose Nale know the Gavilar's plan and putting and end to said plan is of the utmost importance. He cannot kill the man like a common thief, so he devised a plan for that, the worng are putting Sezth in the listener's hand, and the immediate reference on jezerin's honorblade later in the Kalak dialogue perfectly fits the pattern.

The listener retains more ancient history of the human, but doesn't think they know the difference between shardblade and honorblade, and how can he know that Sezth carries any blade? probably the voice in the rhythms spoke of the powers of the blade. and the herald knows them very well.

kalak starts by saying "i'm worried about Ash" as if they saw her not so long ago, we know Ash visited the alethi castle, destroying her statue. Gavilar is a very pious man, and i don't think he could leave a a statue in that state for too long, so Ash must have done it not much time before the feast.

And at last, who sold Sezth to the kholinar's slaver market? It was Liss, so she knows the man, probably his power too and she put him there to be buyed by the listener.

the physical description of Liss and Baxil's mistress are compatible.

[Krandacth]

5 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

my theory is that Liss is indeed a Herald, but Ash not Chana.

  Hide contents

...

the physical description of Liss and Baxil's mistress are compatible.

 

You have me right up until the last paragraph :-P Liss is described as having roughly Alethi skin tone, able to pass as being from Alethka, Jah Keved, Bavland or Herdaz. Baxil's mistress is described as roughly Alethi in shape, but Makabaki in colour. That is completely incompatible, unfortunately :-( However, the rest of your arguments are very compelling, and most apply equally to any female herald for which we don't know the description. As we know Palia is old (I think?), that leaves three viable ones, and Chana seems to best match Liss' apparent temperament/vocation.

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, Fulminato said:

While i was re-reading WoR i concocted a theory for Liss. I'm not 100% confindent in it, but i think it's intersting enough to be shared

inevitable Oathbringer prologue spoiler.

my theory is that Liss is indeed a Herald, but Ash not Chana.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

in the WoR prologue we have Kalak (the male herald talking with Nale) speak about four things:

1 - Ash is getting Worse
2 - I'm getting worst
3 - We did something really wrong
4 - That thing (Sezth) hold the Jezrien blade

in the oathbring prolugue "Klade claimed that the voice speaking in the rhythms led him to the man. They claimed it was a sign of what they would do, and that the creature had confided his skills [to them?] when pressed."

I suppose Nale know the Gavilar's plan and putting and end to said plan is of the utmost importance. He cannot kill the man like a common thief, so he devised a plan for that, the worng are putting Sezth in the listener's hand, and the immediate reference on jezerin's honorblade later in the Kalak dialogue perfectly fits the pattern.

The listener retains more ancient history of the human, but doesn't think they know the difference between shardblade and honorblade, and how can he know that Sezth carries any blade? probably the voice in the rhythms spoke of the powers of the blade. and the herald knows them very well.

kalak starts by saying "i'm worried about Ash" as if they saw her not so long ago, we know Ash visited the alethi castle, destroying her statue. Gavilar is a very pious man, and i don't think he could leave a a statue in that state for too long, so Ash must have done it not much time before the feast.

And at last, who sold Sezth to the kholinar's slaver market? It was Liss, so she knows the man, probably his power too and she put him there to be buyed by the listener.

the physical description of Liss and Baxil's mistress are compatible.

 

As @Krandacth said there's the skin color issue, and there's also the fact that Liss as the weeper gouges out her victims eyes to hide the fact that she uses a Shardblade, and Baxils mistress laments her lack of a blade when breaking the statue with a muffled hammer.

If Baxil's mistress and Liss were indeed the same person that line would have served no purpose than to try and hide her alter ego from people who had no reason to question her.

We know that Ash is Baxil's mistress. If Liss is a Herald, I personally think we can eliminate Shallash as an option. 

Edited May 12, 2017 by Calderis

[The One Who Connects]

On 5/11/2017 at 8:43 PM, Calderis said:

and there's also the fact that Liss as the weeper gouges out her victims eyes to hide the fact that she uses a Shardblade, and Baxils mistress laments her lack of a blade when breaking the statue with a muffled hammer.

If Baxil's mistress and Liss were indeed the same person that line would have served no purpose than to try and hide her alter ego from people who had no reason to question her.

Other discussions linked back over to here, so apologies for the partial-necro, but as was pointed out to me before: The Shalash Interlude is in WoK which, pending a WoB, puts it chronologically before Taln showed up.

[Calderis]

27 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Other discussions linked back over to here, so apologies for the partial-necro, but as was pointed out to me before: The Shalash Interlude is in WoK which, pending a WoB, puts it chronologically before Taln showed up.

LOL, I think I'm the one who pointed that out. So this is pretty funny to me.

Edit: Although, I don't think that Argument actually applies. Baxil's mistress/Shallash lacked a Shardblade during tWoK. Liss had her blade as the Weeper prior to Gavilar's assassination. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Calderis

[Kersplattle]

Isn't there a WOB that we've met all (or most) of the Heralds already ? I may be misremembering but if so, this is a probable discovery.

I like this theory of Lisa as Chana, it solves or provides a possible solution to a number of little mysteries. It seems to beggar belief a little that there are many stray shardblades hanging around Kholinar.

Little nit-pick though, isn't likely that someone might notice the substitution, the blades are reasonably different in style. And Chana would have at least some motivation for the swap, and the position to do it.

[Steeldancer]

Well apparently alekthar has like half of the world's shardblades 

[Fulminato]

2 hours ago, The Flash said:

Well apparently alekthar has like half of the world's shardblades 

based on dalinar though in the recreance day vision only near one hundred blade are 'accounted' on roshar, but the vision show  near three hundred windrunner and stoneward, probably all the shardblade are easly over one thousand, so there is a huge amount of shard lost or forgotten.

the total number is my guess: bondsmith aside the other nine order i think have rougly the same number of knight (in the wor epigraph of bondsmith there is an hint in that direction), one order don't broke their oath so the knights in total can easy are four time the number dalinar see drop their shard (two order of eight)

Edited May 25, 2017 by Fulminato

[Steeldancer]

5 minutes ago, Fulminato said:

based on dalinar though in the recreance day vision only near one hundred blade are 'accounted' on roshar, but the vision show  near three hundred windrunner and stoneward, probably all the shardblade are easly over one thousand, so there is a huge amount of shard lost or forgotten.

the total number is my guess: bondsmith aside the other nine order i think have rougly the same number of knight (in the wor epigraph of bondsmith there is an hint in that direction), one order don't broke their oath so the knights in total can easy are four time the number dalinar see drop their shard (two order of eight)

There are only 3 bondsmiths... it's the smallest order. I think. 

[StrikerEZ]

On 5/25/2017 at 10:56 AM, The Flash said:

There are only 3 bondsmiths... it's the smallest order. I think. 

No, he was excluding the bondsmiths in trying to guess how many shardblades there are currently after they were left behind from the Recreance. Plus, they wouldn't have any shardblades anyway, since they're bonded to "godspren" so to speak.

[Jace21]

11 hours ago, StrikerEZ said:

No, he was excluding the bondsmiths in trying to guess how many shardblades there are currently after they were left behind from the Recreance. Plus, they wouldn't have any shardblades anyway, since they're bonded to "godspren" so to speak.

We can't actually say that for sure I dont think. Only that the Stornfather says he will not be a shardblade for Dalinar. We have no idea how it worked pre-recreance, it could be the same but could also have been different.

Edited June 3, 2017 by Jace21

[Spoolofwhool]

9 minutes ago, Jace21 said:

We can't actually say that for sure I dont think. Only that the Stornfather says he will not be a shardblade for Dalinar. We have no idea how it worked pre-recreance, it could be the same but could also have been different.

There's a WoB that Bondsmiths never had shardblades. 

Quote

Q: As it is ornamented in such a way... Could it be related to a Bondsmith?
A: Bondsmith's didn't have Blades.
Q: All of them? It's just... Maybe it was just the Stormfather...
A: No. That's a really good guess. Really good guess. I'm gonna RAFO Bondsmiths because you gonna learn a lot about them in the next book because it's the Bondsmith's book. That's a really good theory, but it's not true. But there's a reason to it, why it has all the 10 orders.

[Source]

 

Edited June 3, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Jace21]

Hmm... I cant believe I'd never seen that WoB before.

Which blade is Brandon talking about there?