Healing from a shardblade?

[Kaerak]

Discussing the Cosmere with a friend of mine, and we were considering who'd win in a straight up fight against the Lord Ruler.The obvious combatants we pitted him against was Kaladin and Vasher.  The discussion raised two points we couldn't agree upon, so I'd like to know peoples opinions.

1) Would Nightblood view the Lord Ruler as evil? He had good intentions but ultimately acted in a tyrannical way. Assuming he is affected by Nightblood, would the metallic arts function the same as breaths for how Nightblood draws out investiture?

2) Surgebinders can use investiture to heal from a shardblade attack (according to the Coppermind, I can't remember this happening but my friend tells me Szeth cut Kaladin who healed from it via stormlight. Would the Metallic arts count as investiture to heal a shardblade attack, if so, could the Lord Rulers compounded Gold keep him alive long enough to beat Kaladin in a fight? This point is assuming Kaladin is in possession of his full surgebinder abilities also.

[The One Who Connects]

12 hours ago, Markus said:

This could probably take Rashek's investiture or maybe even the investiture out of his Metalminds.  That would be seriously crippling.

Spool already brought up that Nalan carried one for a purpose, rather than just to carry one. But I'm pretty sure that we've had a WoB that Chromium couldn't leech out of a Metalmind unless they were actively tapping it (I'll go search for that in a minute) Yes you could still drain some of his F-Atium, but Chromium doesn't drain it all at once. It drains at a high rate, but if there is enough power to drain, then they have to keep in constant contact. This makes me think that a Larkin would either

• Take several moments to drain all of it. (makes it a target in a 1v1, hard to defend and keep up the pressure on TLR)
• Drain until the Larkin was "full" which may/may not be enough to drain him completely
• (assuming TLR understands and taps less useful minds as filler) Drain a mix and doesn't damage his Atium that much

[Markus]

13 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Rashek is arrogant, but he's also not an idiot. He knows how to plan and make contingencies, as he clearly showed during the Mistborn Era 1. He wouldn't throw everything away in an attack without preparing first.

Four normal people is well below a sliver with a ton of investiture circulating through him. The argument falls through. While we don't know how much more invested a fullborn sliver is to a person, nor how much more a fullborn sliver with that much kinetic investiture is circulating within, trivializing it like you are doesn't work. Also, Vin being able to steelpush his metalminds is not an argument as that was literally the power of a shard helping her. Just because stormlight is the gaseous manifestation of a shard's power doesn't mean it works in the same way, and we've seen no indication of stormlight working similarly to how mist do as you've described. 

Also, I find it odd that you're arguing that soulcasting would be relatively effective against TLR despite the amount of investiture he's got going on, but that emotional allomancy wouldn't be that effective against Heralds for the exact same reasons. Mind elaborating a bit on that discrepancy?

We have no indication that Heralds just casually carry around larkins. Nale was because he knew he was going to find Lift. Nothing has indicated that Heralds at the time when they could've actually fought Rashek carried around larkins as weapons, so this is a moot point. 

Nothing we have seen indicates that throwing investiture at a target interferes with the investiture they already have. Everything has only shown the opposite to occur, where the investiture already in place resists further addition of investiture. As such, I doubt this would actually happen and could count as a credible threat. 

Apparently darts can go up to 400 ft/s, or 439 km/h. Interesting. Still can be six times slower than a bullet.

 I'll note that while having a mainline to Honor's power means that they won't ever run out of stormlight, it doesn't mean that they don't have a limit on how much they can use at a given moment, so unlimited is incorrect.

We know next to nothing about what surgebinding cohesion would do so using it as an example is completely moot, and at best, speculation.

I still see no reason to think that any Heralds, with what powers we know them to possess pre-Aharetiam, could beat TLR one on one. All ten at once, I would doubt TLR's chance, but one on one I would bet on TLR every time. 

I see a lot of parallels between Vin and the Heralds.  Vin was assisted by a shard that was handicapped keeping another trapped.  Pre-Aharateim (probably mangled the spelling) Heralds are assisted by Honor, who is keeping Odium trapped!  The main basis of my argument this entire time has been that Heralds have a whole lot more investiture going on inside of them than Rashek.  Stormlight is powerful and easily accesible, which is why Vasher goes to Roshar.  Also, I'd suspect that Heralds have a lot of investiture going on (they do get killed and ressurected repeteadly, and that obviously takes a good amount of investiture).  

I think it would make more sense if both investitures interfered with eachother, but I don't have enough evidence to prove either way.

About the larkins- I don't think Nale can just pick up a larkin in the store.  They are incredibly rare.  Nale probably had that larkin for a long time, and either had to got one recently from a Reshi greatshell (or some other method), which I doubt, or have one from before.  I think it would be very sensible for a Herald to carry a larkin.  As they eat investiture, they could be very useful as a weapon against voidbringers.  

Darts are slower than bullets, yes, but Taln catches one without any stormlight.  We don't even know if the dart is his top non-stormlight capacity.  Even if it is, with stormlight, he's a lot faster.

Yes, I guess unlimited was incorrect.  But still, that gets rid of the run-out-of-stormlight risk.

I'm not sure where you're getting next to nothing about cohesion.  While I don't think we know it's full capacity, both Kaladin and Szeth use it.  Szeth glues a door to it's frame, and I believe that, when training in the chasm, Kaladin sweeps his leg across the ground and creates a sticky patch that one of the bridgemen gets trapped in.

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Spool already brought up that Nalan carried one for a purpose, rather than just to carry one. But I'm pretty sure that we've had a WoB that Chromium couldn't leech out of a Metalmind unless they were actively tapping it (I'll go search for that in a minute) Yes you could still drain some of his F-Atium, but Chromium doesn't drain it all at once. It drains at a high rate, but if there is enough power to drain, then they have to keep in constant contact. This makes me think that a Larkin would either

• Take several moments to drain all of it. (makes it a target in a 1v1, hard to defend and keep up the pressure on TLR)
• Drain until the Larkin was "full" which may/may not be enough to drain him completely
• (assuming TLR understands and taps less useful minds as filler) Drain a mix and doesn't damage his Atium that much

As I said above, he probably had a larkin beforehand.  I don't have WoR on me right now- I will check when I get home- but I think the Larkin abosorbed Lift's stormlight really fast (almost instantly).  In fact, it just occurs to me that Lift and a larkin are like opposites.  Lift turns food into stormlight, and a larkin uses stormlight for food.  The filling of the larkin is a good point.  I doubt Rashek would realize immediatly that the larkin was draining or come up with that idea, though F-Zinc might help him realize.  However, if it's almost instant as I said, that wouldn't be a problem.

[The One Who Connects]

5 minutes ago, Markus said:

I'm not sure where you're getting next to nothing about cohesion.  While I don't think we know it's full capacity, both Kaladin and Szeth use it.  Szeth glues a door to it's frame, and I believe that, when training in the chasm, Kaladin sweeps his leg across the ground and creates a sticky patch that one of the bridgemen gets trapped in.

Windrunners have Gravitation and Adhesion. Cohesion is Willshaper/Stoneward territory.

6 minutes ago, Markus said:

but I think the Larkin absorbed Lift's Stormlight really fast (almost instantly). [..] I doubt Rashek would realize immediately that the Larkin was draining or come up with that idea, though F-Zinc might help him realize.  However, if it's almost instant as I said, that wouldn't be a problem.

Lift didn't have that much Stormlight.  Now I'll have to rewatch that scene, but I believe that Lift could see her Stormlight going to the Larkin, so Rashek would notice that something is going from him to the Larkin, and if that something is his F-Atium, he'll notice immediately that his power was fluctuating.  Also, I found the statement that basically say draining a Compounder takes time to do.

Quote

2) The noninvested metals go before the invested ones. He said that because invested metals are harder to effect, it takes a little extra time and effort to get them to burn off. So a Leecher trying to clean out a Compounder would have to get a good grip and hang on for a few seconds.

3) Chromium burns about as quickly as duralumin, so if you're trying to burn off a lot of metals, it is possible to run out of chromium before your target is clean. This would probably only be an issue when dealing with larger pieces (like jewelry) rather than your standard metal-flakes-in-the-stomach deal.

 

[Markus]

Just now, The One Who Connects said:

Windrunners have Gravitation and Adhesion. Cohesion is Willshaper/Stoneward territory.

Lift didn't have that much Stormlight.  Now I'll have to rewatch that scene, but I believe that Lift could see her Stormlight going to the Larkin, so Rashek would notice that something is going from him to the Larkin, and if that something is his F-Atium, he'll notice immediately that his power was fluctuating.  Also, I found the statement that basically say draining a Compounder takes time to do.

 

Oh, I see.  My apolgies.  I mixed them up.

Yes, we really need a look at that scene.  It will be several hours before I can look at it, so if anyone has it on hand, that would be helpful.

[Spoolofwhool]

9 hours ago, Markus said:

The main basis of my argument this entire time has been that Heralds have a whole lot more investiture going on inside of them than Rashek.  Stormlight is powerful and easily accesible, which is why Vasher goes to Roshar.  Also, I'd suspect that Heralds have a lot of investiture going on (they do get killed and ressurected repeteadly, and that obviously takes a good amount of investiture).  

Fair, except we don't actually know how much is going on with them so to say that they're above a threshold where they can't be hit with emotional allomancy but Rashek is below the threshold where he can be easily affected by soulcasting is extremely tenuous. I honestly see it as more likely that they're both above a threshold where direct investiture-based attacks would be largely ineffective.

9 hours ago, Markus said:

About the larkins- I don't think Nale can just pick up a larkin in the store.  They are incredibly rare.  Nale probably had that larkin for a long time, and either had to got one recently from a Reshi greatshell (or some other method), which I doubt, or have one from before.  I think it would be very sensible for a Herald to carry a larkin.  As they eat investiture, they could be very useful as a weapon against voidbringers.  

4500 years is a long time. He could've picked one up at any point. Honestly I don't see larkins as being effective weapons since they appear very short-range, in a fight where you probably need to be moving around a lot. 

9 hours ago, Markus said:

I'm not sure where you're getting next to nothing about cohesion.  While I don't think we know it's full capacity, both Kaladin and Szeth use it.  Szeth glues a door to it's frame, and I believe that, when training in the chasm, Kaladin sweeps his leg across the ground and creates a sticky patch that one of the bridgemen gets trapped in.

As stated, that's adhesion, not cohesion. In any case, I don't see it being that effective against TLR when he can just rip off whatever limbs get stuck then immediately regrow them.

9 hours ago, Markus said:

As I said above, he probably had a larkin beforehand.  I don't have WoR on me right now- I will check when I get home- but I think the Larkin abosorbed Lift's stormlight really fast (almost instantly).  In fact, it just occurs to me that Lift and a larkin are like opposites.  Lift turns food into stormlight, and a larkin uses stormlight for food.  The filling of the larkin is a good point.  I doubt Rashek would realize immediatly that the larkin was draining or come up with that idea, though F-Zinc might help him realize.  However, if it's almost instant as I said, that wouldn't be a problem.

As noted, Lift had a rather small amount of stormlight, compared to the amount TLR would probably have when he's fighting at full speed. Also, it's not hard to realize that your allomancy is being drained. I don't think it would actually be that effective against allomancy and feruchemy though, because those are both powers where investiture is instantly drawn from a source then used, unlike surgebinding where the surgebinder stockpiles the stormlight within, thus making them vulnerable to larkins consuming it.

EDIT: Excerpt from Lift's segment.

Quote

She summoned her awesomeness. Darkness thrust something toward her. The little animal was like a cremling, but with wings. Bound wings, tied-up legs. It had a strange little face, not crabbish like a cremling. More like a tiny axehound, with a snout, mouth, and eyes. It seemed sickly, and its shimmering eyes were pained. How could she tell that? The creature sucked the awesomeness from Lift. She actually saw it go, a glistening whiteness that streamed from her to the little animal. It opened its mouth, drinking it in. Suddenly, Lift felt very tired and very, very hungry. Darkness handed the animal to one of his minions, who made it vanish into a black sack he then tucked in his pocket.

As it says, she could see the stormlight leave her. Also, the fact that she could describe it with that much detail means that it was probably fairly close to her, meaning short-range use.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[+Extesian]

A small addition to this thread. There's a recent Reddit comment from Brandon indicating that death by Nightblood is final.

Quote

• •	dce42 • 10h

I figured nightblood was your answer to dead is dead.

 

 

 

2

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

• • •

mistborn Shardbearer • 4h

He's certainly AN answer. But there are way more ways to kill someone in the cosmere--I just need to be more clear on how that works, giving the right indications to readers.

I think we already knew this really, but I feel that indicates that TLR facing someone wielding Nightblood would be instantly killable if they can actually hit him ie no healing or 'resurrection' is possible.

[DocHoliday]

I really don't think anyone rating the Heralds for any reason is seriously taking Feruchemical steel and Feruchemical pewter Compounding as the end game it is.

All this back and forth about Rioting and Soul Casting and Larkins is irrelevant.

In the first second. In the first heartbeat. In the first instant of battle. Somebody dies. Immediately.

TLR full bore Tapping his metals will end whomever he wishes fast as a thunderclap. This fight is over before any Herald begins to think about aggression.

 

"Hey Gancho! What's the last thing to go through a Heralds mind? His nose!"

[The One Who Connects]

11 minutes ago, DocHoliday said:

In the first second. In the first heartbeat. In the first instant of battle. Somebody dies. Immediately.

I think several of us know that but we ignored it as, like with both Vin and Marsh, he has grown overconfident and wouldn't go full bore right away if he doesn't think he needs to. Once it becomes a proper fight, then sure. But until then, he's gonna hold back for no reason other than because he can.

[kenod]

So the fact that a serious TLR would probably defeat a Herald seems to be confirmed, but how about one of the most special abilities the Heralds have: They can come back from the dead. TLR doesn't seem to have a technique that can kill a Herald in a way that makes them impossible to revive, so they should be able to just come back and try again. I think that after a few thousand attempts they should be able to come up with a tactic that can defeat him (basically Herald zombie apocalypse).

Also, when it comes to Soulcasting, can't they just Soulcast his surroundings into some kind of horrible deathtrap? It probably wouldn't kill him, but you could possibly distract him and get the jump on him.

Edited March 14, 2017 by kenod
typo

[Samaldin]

12 hours ago, DocHoliday said:

"Hey Gancho! What's the last thing to go through a Heralds mind? His nose!"

Have an Upvote just for this^^

I guess the recursive Immortality could in the long run alow the Heralds to beat TLR, but it probably wouldn´t even come to that. If we assume they come back as they id during Desolations that would be once very 2000 or so years i believe, TLR would probably hit the cap how fast he can tap youth earlier and die than the heralds could ome up with a viable battle strategy based on experience. So in the "short" term (let´s say <4000 years) TLR wins without too much effort, in the long run (>4000 years) the Heralds win because their Immortality works for a longer time.

[The One Who Connects]

15 hours ago, Samaldin said:

TLR would probably hit the cap how fast he can tap youth earlier   [...]   come back as they did during Desolations that would be once very 2000 or so years i believe

I basically agree with the premise of your post so I hope you don't take this as too argumentative, but we've speculated in the past that TLR could have found a way to reset, slow or even stop his spiritual aging if he had managed to use the Well a second time, since he would have learned a lot already in the past millennia.

Secondly, there was only 6,000-ish years from the Shattering to the Prelude of WoK [2] and Odium was doing several other things before going to Roshar. Even if there were only 9 Desolations, they would probably be every 350-400 years apart. I did an attempted timeline reconstruction here, so I remember these things.

I think it is entirely possible for both combatants to live and strategize for the rest of time if need be.

[Samaldin]

You're right, i forgot about the Well. I thought 2k years for a desolation was a bit on the long side, but man the other heralds cant' hold a candle to Taln....Although i think 9 desolations in 6000 are a bit too frequently