Is shardplate *meant* to be powered by gems?

[quadbox]

I was just vaguely pondering...  is there WoB on whether shardplate in its original form, as owned by a knight radiant, still had embedded gems on the inside to power it?  Or was it was powered by the stormlight leaking out of the knight herself?

Edited March 2, 2017 by quadbox

[galendo]

I don't think we explicitly know.  I'm not an expert on WoB's, but I don't think I've seen one address it.  All we can do is speculate.

The one glimpse of true Radiant Plate that we got in Dalinar's vision doesn't mention any gems, as I recall.  Strangely, this is actually more evidence for Radiant Plate having gems than not, since to Dalinar gems would have been part of the Plate and their absence perhaps notable.  (Though actually, now that I think about it, it's mentioned that gems are needed to restore Plate, but I'm not sure that gems are ever mentioned as being part of the Plate.)  Still, he didn't mention the lack of gems on the Blades, either, and we know those didn't have gems, so I doubt we can take their lack of mention as strong evidence either way.

My personal suspicion, though, is that they didn't.  I admit I don't really have any proof for that other than subscribing to the "Plate is made from spren" theory.  But we know that Blades didn't originally have gems (they got added afterward), so I think it's somewhat reasonable to suppose that Plate didn't either.

I think we can safely say that Plate wasn't powered by Stormlight leaking out of the Radiants, though -- not in combat situations, at least.  We know this because during Kaladin's fight with the Plate helm, he burns through Stormlight at a much faster rate than normal.  Plus, I question the utility of armor that gets heavier and generally worse as you run out of Stormlight -- it seems like you'd really want armor that could hold its own even when you weren't filled with Stormlight.  A Knight with a bunch of 'light doesn't need either Blade or Plate to be effective (or Horse, either).  Pretty much every Radiant we've seen has a way to kill without the Blade (at one point Dalinar even mentions that Szeth's most dangerous weapon isn't his Blade but his hand), and enough Stormlight heals pretty much any wound.  I'm not saying they're not worth having regardless; the Blade gives more reach and the Plate more protection.  But the Blade is still a Blade without Stormlight, and I'm guessing that so is the Plate.  Until you run totally out, at least, and I'm thinking that even then a Radiant wouldn't be trapped in his Plate the way that modern Shardbearers are.

[Thunder_93]

I have a few points where I don't think you're right, galendo.

Firstly, you said he didn't mention the lack of gemstones at the blades in his vision. That Shardblade need a gemstone, is new to me. As much as I remember some Blades had gemstones attached, but this was more for decoration.
The Gemstones on blades are never mentioned to be replaced, charged with Stormlight, or whatever. As I remember, Shardblades don't need gemstones.

About the Shardplates: The gemstones of Shardplates are actually at the armors interior. So that Dalinar didn't see them, isn't really a proof.
But I agree, I don't think the Plates of a Knight Radiant needed gemstones, for this reason: Szeth sais, he had to decide, if he wants to use a shardplate or surgebinding, as the surgebinding would interfere with the gems of the armor.
As we saw that the Knight Radiants from Dalinars vision wore the armor, and were flying, so, surgebinding, thats for me a good proof their armor doesnt use gemstones

[kenod]

2 hours ago, Thunder_93 said:

Firstly, you said he didn't mention the lack of gemstones at the blades in his vision. That Shardblade need a gemstone, is new to me. As much as I remember some Blades had gemstones attached, but this was more for decoration.
The Gemstones on blades are never mentioned to be replaced, charged with Stormlight, or whatever. As I remember, Shardblades don't need gemstones

The gemstones in Shardblades gets mentioned by Navani in WoR, where she explains that Shardblades didn't originally had gemstones, and that they where placed later, and presumably were what enabled non-radiants to bond them in the first place.
(WoR, chapter 67, Spit and Bile)

Quote

“We made a breakthrough in the design of new Shardblades the other day.”
“What, really?” he asked. “What happened? How soon will you have one ready?”
She smiled, arm around his.
“What?”
“Just seeing if you are still you,” she said. “Our breakthrough was realizing that the gemstones in the Blades—used to bond them—might not have originally been part of the weapons.”
He frowned. “That’s important?”
“Yes. If this is true, it means the Blades aren’t powered by the stones. Credit goes to Rushu, who asked why a Shardblade can be summoned and dismissed even if its gemstone has gone dun. We had no answers, and she spent the last few weeks in contact with Kharbranth, using one of those new information stations. She came up with a scrap from several decades after the Recreance which talks about men learning to summon and dismiss Blades by adding gemstones to them, an accident of ornamentation it seems.”
He frowned as they passed a shalebark outcropping where a gardener was working late, carefully filing away and humming to himself. The sun had set; Salas had just risen in the east.
“If this is true,” Navani said, sounding happy, “we’re back to knowing absolutely nothing about how Shardblades were crafted.”
“I don’t see why that’s a breakthrough at all.”
She smiled, patting him on the arm. “Imagine you had spent the last five years believing an enemy had been following Dialectur’s War as a model for tactics, but then heard it reported they instead had never heard of the treatise.”
“Ah . . .”
“We had been assuming that somehow, the strength and lightness of the Blades was a fabrial construct powered by the gemstone,” Navani said. “This might not be the case. It seems the gemstone’s purpose is only used in initially bonding the Blade—something that the Radiants didn’t need to do.”
“Wait. They didn’t?”
“Not if this fragment is correct. The implication is that the Radiants could always dismiss and summon Blades—but for a time the ability was lost. It was only recovered when someone added a gemstone to his Blade. The fragment says the weapons actually shifted shape to adopt the stones, but I’m not certain if I trust that.
“Either way, after the Radiants fell but before men learned to put gemstones into their Blades and bond them, the weapons were apparently still supernaturally sharp and light, though bonding was impossible. This would explain several other fragments of records I’ve read and found confusing. . . .”

 

[Stark]

6 hours ago, galendo said:

 A Knight with a bunch of 'light doesn't need either Blade or Plate to be effective (or Horse, either).  Pretty much every Radiant we've seen has a way to kill without the Blade (at one point Dalinar even mentions that Szeth's most dangerous weapon isn't his Blade but his hand), and enough Stormlight heals pretty much any wound

I agree with a bunch of the points about the blades from @Thunder_93 and @kenod above.  What has me looking at this sideways is the assertion that a Knight with Light doesn't need her plate.  You are likely right, if the opponents are human.  And a Radiant can heal any of her wounds via light short of the one-shot insta-death attacks (I believe Brandon has indicated total obliteration of the skull would work).  But, the Radiants were originally convened for fighting the forces of Odium in the Desolations, correct?  Where the enemies are significantly greater than humanoid, some made entirely out of stone that requires a Blade to even scratch, and instant death attacks are flying around left, right and center.  At that point, the ability to take a hit, and keep moving without losing a lot of your precious Stormlight to healing seems pretty important.

 

Contemporary Radiants and proto-Radiants may not necessarily require blades and plates to be effective, but the assertion that that was always the case, or will always be the case is fundamentally flawed.  The Everstorm is here, and red eyes have re-appeared among the Listeners.  What used to be overkill in battle may very quickly become the only way to fight effectively in the field in the very near future.

[Weltall]

11 hours ago, galendo said:

The one glimpse of true Radiant Plate that we got in Dalinar's vision doesn't mention any gems, as I recall.  Strangely, this is actually more evidence for Radiant Plate having gems than not, since to Dalinar gems would have been part of the Plate and their absence perhaps notable.

The gems that power modern Shardplate are located inside the armor so there's no way for Dalinar to tell whether Radiant armor had them or didn't just by looking at the outside.

[galendo]

19 hours ago, Thunder_93 said:

I have a few points where I don't think you're right, galendo.

Firstly, you said he didn't mention the lack of gemstones at the blades in his vision. That Shardblade need a gemstone, is new to me. As much as I remember some Blades had gemstones attached, but this was more for decoration.
The Gemstones on blades are never mentioned to be replaced, charged with Stormlight, or whatever. As I remember, Shardblades don't need gemstones.

About the Shardplates: The gemstones of Shardplates are actually at the armors interior. So that Dalinar didn't see them, isn't really a proof.
But I agree, I don't think the Plates of a Knight Radiant needed gemstones, for this reason: Szeth sais, he had to decide, if he wants to use a shardplate or surgebinding, as the surgebinding would interfere with the gems of the armor.
As we saw that the Knight Radiants from Dalinars vision wore the armor, and were flying, so, surgebinding, thats for me a good proof their armor doesnt use gemstones

As kenod said, all modern Shardblades have gems attached, as this is what allows them to bond.  Once bonded, however, they don't need gems to do their thing.  My point, though, was that every Shardblade Dalinar had seen before then had a gem in it, none of the Blades in his vision had any, and yet he didn't notice/mention the lack at all.

As for the Plate, I think you're a bit confused.  Since you and @Weltall both agree that the gems are inside the armor, I'll believe you on that count.  But the reason Szeth doesn't wear Plate is that the Plate would interfere with the lashings, not the gems.  Gems, as far as we know, don't interfere with Surgebinding at all.  The theory is that while another person's Plate would interfere with his lashings, a Radiant's own Plate wouldn't do so.  Hence why the Windrunners in the vision can fly with Plate but Szeth can't.

14 hours ago, Stark said:

I agree with a bunch of the points about the blades from @Thunder_93 and @kenod above.  What has me looking at this sideways is the assertion that a Knight with Light doesn't need her plate.  You are likely right, if the opponents are human.  And a Radiant can heal any of her wounds via light short of the one-shot insta-death attacks (I believe Brandon has indicated total obliteration of the skull would work).  But, the Radiants were originally convened for fighting the forces of Odium in the Desolations, correct?  Where the enemies are significantly greater than humanoid, some made entirely out of stone that requires a Blade to even scratch, and instant death attacks are flying around left, right and center.  At that point, the ability to take a hit, and keep moving without losing a lot of your precious Stormlight to healing seems pretty important.

I'm not saying that the Radiants wouldn't be better off with Plate than not.  As far as we know, Plate is a strict improvement over not having Plate.  The point I'm trying to make is that we've seen a lot of full Shardbearers bite the dust but never seen a Radiant die while full of Stormlight.  You might be right that the scales will swing at some point, but clearly for now at least if your choices are a bunch of Stormlight or Plate and Blade, you take the Stormlight and forget the Shards.  But if you're going to run out of Stormlight, say during a long battle or something, then all of a sudden the Blade at least is a lot more useful than just a smidgen of Light.  My postulate is that the same is true for Plate as well.

If you want to bring the Ryshidium...Ryshandium...the Horses into it, then you see the same sort of effect that you do with the Blade.  If you've got a lot of Light, the Horse isn't necessary, and you can get wherever you're going faster on your own.  But if you haven't got much Light to spare, then all of a sudden a super-horse that doesn't need Stormlight, like a super-blade that doesn't need Stormlight, is a lot more useful.  I'm supposing until I know otherwise that the Plate is similar in this regard to both the Blades and the Horses.  A little bit useful if you've got more Stormlight than you know what to do with, but a lot more important if you're in danger of running out.

[Thunder_93]

@galendo

Quote

But the reason Szeth doesn't wear Plate is that the Plate would interfere with the lashings, not the gems.  Gems, as far as we know, don't interfere with Surgebinding at all

Just looked it up again. It's even written in the Prologue of Way of Kings, that it actually is the gemstones that interfere, not the Plate itself:

Quote

His Lashings interfered with the gemstones that powered Shardplate, and he had to choose one or the other

 

[ccstat]

Hmm, interesting. Thanks for the quote, Thunder. 

I'm not sure if this is a case of Szeth misunderstanding the magic or of me (and many other readers) missing something important. We do have multiple WoB about shardlate itself interfering with lashings and other magic because it is "hyperinvested."  (1, 2, 3).

Brandon has also confirmed that gems were added to plate around the same time that they were added to blades, and were not part of the originals.

[Thunder_93]

I never read that WoBs, but that's interesting, just how you said. At the first 2 WoBs i have to say, it's never really specifically said that it's the plate that's to invested. It still could be the gemstones attached to it, which kind of "bond" to the plate, so it is seen as one object (does that make sense?).

But in the third it really sounds more like it is actually the plate.

Just interesting, that Szeth doesn't understand it correctly, as he isn't actually a Knight Radiant... but still, I wouldn't expect that he tells us that in the book, and that it's actually wrong.

But what I just randomly thought about. Maybe you have to think about it a little different.
In my opinion, a shardplate itself does not have any Investiture left - otherwhise it wouldn't need charged gems, right?

And the reason, why a Knight Radiant can use lashings inside of the plate: Maybe that's really just because the plate, just like the blade, is alive as well (according to the theory that the plate of a Radiant is made of minor Spren).
And, as it's the magic from the same user, it does not interfere with each other (a little of topic - but same as a Mistborn can't use Feruchemical Metalminds, unless their his own. Then other random thought - could a Twinborn, for example Wax, push on his own metalminds?)

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Thunder_93 said:

Spoiler

(a little of topic - but same as a Mistborn can't use Feruchemical Metalminds, unless their his own. Then other random thought - could a Twinborn, for example Wax, push on his own metalminds?)

 

Interesting point. The answer is yes. 

Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

Any allomancer seems to be able to push and pull metalminds unless they are so invested like the Bands. However, i think it would probably be easier for Wax to push on his metalminds as in my opinion, identity interference is a part.

Watch the Mistborn information. This is SA forum, so please put the Mistborn information in a spoiler.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Thunder_93]

Thanks for the answer.

Thanks for the hint, like I said - I only wanted that as a comparsion, that in other magic systems, the investiture of the same person doesn't interfere with one another.

So, it might be the same here - that the Lashings don't interfere with the gemstones (as Szeth said) but with the plate (as Brandon mentioned). But a Knight Radiant might be excluded from that, when he's using "his own" Plate. However, if he uses a normal Shardplate, I guess it wouldn't work anymore.

[IAreNelson]

Sorry I'm on mobile and can't go find the book, but when kaladin goes to help Adolin in his duel he uses a shard helmet at point as a weapon. 

If I remember right, he gets depleted of his stormlight and realizes that the helmet had been feeding off of his stormlight. That puts me more in the camp that plates were powered by radiants and not gemstones, unless of course I remember wrong.

Also, while I have no proof for it I'm convinced that gems were added to plate so that could keep functioning when damaged, not because they drain power while in use.

[TamagoDono]

37 minutes ago, IAreNelson said:

Sorry I'm on mobile and can't go find the book, but when kaladin goes to help Adolin in his duel he uses a shard helmet at point as a weapon. 

If I remember right, he gets depleted of his stormlight and realizes that the helmet had been feeding off of his stormlight. That puts me more in the camp that plates were powered by radiants and not gemstones, unless of course I remember wrong.

Also, while I have no proof for it I'm convinced that gems were added to plate so that could keep functioning when damaged, not because they drain power while in use.

As you said, the helm used up Kaladin's stormlight in the duel. I think the most likely cause is that shardplate is restored through stormlight, and this is why Kaladin was depleted and the helm restored, it used his stormlight. 

In that case, the normal procedure is to use the gems to slowly restore the plate, but Kaladin proved to be a better method of restoration at the time. 

Firther to above theories, I understand that in his vision while unable to see any gems in the plate Dalinar did note that the plates flowed in a way he'd never seen before. 

Based on that information you can likely assume the plates used to be different and did not negatively impact the radients using them.

[quadbox]

Considering, in one of the early visions dalinar had back in WoK, how he observed them make their helmets just vanish, combined with the idea that the stormlight the knight's putting into the plate is what repairs it,  I wonder if rather than the windspren theory the plate itself is actually made out of stormlight itself.  In much the same way as a radiant can draw back in stormlight they've used to invest an object, perhaps they can draw the plate back into the mistform of stormlight and reabsorb it?

I'm not even sure that's entirely incompatible with the swarm-of-spren theory even, they might form the structure, and the knight invests them with a solid form of stormlight to give it its qualities?

[Fulminato]

Quote

the Way of Knigs, Chapter 19: "Starfall"

Dalinar lay stunned. This was unlike any Shardbearer he had ever seen. The Plate glowed with an even blue light, and glyphs—some familiar, others not—were etched into the metal. They trailed blue vapor. 

[...]

His skin was dark brown, like a Makabaki, and he had short black curly hair. His armor no longer glowed, though one large symbol—emblazoned across the front of the breastplate—still gave off a faint blue light.
Dalinar recognized the symbol, the particular pattern of the stylized double eye, eight spheres connected with two at the center. It had been the symbol of the Lost Radiants, back when they’d been called the Knights Radiant.

the glyphs in the armor are probably related to the glyphs kaladin 'drew' when sworn the third ideal ( "Behind Kaladin, frost crystalized on the ground, growing backward away from him. A glyph formed in the frost, almost in the shape of wings.") and when landing in the plateau after save dalinar lashed by szeth (The expanding ring of smoky light faded, save for a large glyph—a swordlike shape—which remained for a brief moment before puffing away.)

in my opinion the plate is a 'stromlight made solid' (i don't believe in the lesser spren swarm theory), the link windrunner and wind spreen can works, but the other? the skybreaker specificaly can 'fly', like the windrunner, so they attract wind spreen too? 

[Patrick Star]

No, it's not supposed to be.  We're not sure exactly what plate is made of, but it's likely either some sort of crystallized Stormlight or a bunch of lesser spren joining up.  I think the lesser spren idea is closer to the correct theory because that would be a better way to set up the differences between living and dead shardplate.

Szeth mentions that he couldn't wear shardplate because it interfered with the windrunner lashings, and when Kaladin used the helmet as a glove in the arena, it sucked the stormlight out of him to repair itself.

So living shardplate is likely powered by the radiants themselves, and I'd imagine that there's some sort of bond there that plays off the nahel bond.

Just my 2 cents.

[Quiver]

5 hours ago, Patrick Star said:

No, it's not supposed to be.  We're not sure exactly what plate is made of, but it's likely either some sort of crystallized Stormlight or a bunch of lesser spren joining up.  I think the lesser spren idea is closer to the correct theory because that would be a better way to set up the differences between living and dead shardplate.

Szeth mentions that he couldn't wear shardplate because it interfered with the windrunner lashings, and when Kaladin used the helmet as a glove in the arena, it sucked the stormlight out of him to repair itself.

So living shardplate is likely powered by the radiants themselves, and I'd imagine that there's some sort of bond there that plays off the nahel bond.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm not exactly the most well-informed of relamantics or WoB's, but my assumption was actually that the shardplate needing gemstones to be regrown and powered is a point in favour of them needing those things.

The difference between Shardplate and Shardblade gemstones, so far as I can see, is that the gemstones on Shardblades are entirely decorative. You take out the gemstone, and the sword continues to work just fine. But if you remove the gemstone from the Shardplate, it... doesn't work.

(Well, okay, it works when one infuses it with stormlight... but I imagine that means that the gemstones are how the Plate is supposed to work, with stormlight being used by Radiants if they run out of juice. Basically, I read stormlight as the back-up generator for when the electricity (or, rather, gemstone) runs out)

But as I say... I'm not well-versed in thi stuff, and I haven't read Roshar in a long while. Maybe I'm forgetting something?

[Spoolofwhool]

14 minutes ago, Quiver said:

I'm not exactly the most well-informed of relamantics or WoB's, but my assumption was actually that the shardplate needing gemstones to be regrown and powered is a point in favour of them needing those things.

The difference between Shardplate and Shardblade gemstones, so far as I can see, is that the gemstones on Shardblades are entirely decorative. You take out the gemstone, and the sword continues to work just fine. But if you remove the gemstone from the Shardplate, it... doesn't work.

(Well, okay, it works when one infuses it with stormlight... but I imagine that means that the gemstones are how the Plate is supposed to work, with stormlight being used by Radiants if they run out of juice. Basically, I read stormlight as the back-up generator for when the electricity (or, rather, gemstone) runs out)

But as I say... I'm not well-versed in thi stuff, and I haven't read Roshar in a long while. Maybe I'm forgetting something?

That's a possibility. The way I see it though, is that the plate runs off of stormlight. When radiants wear it, they're the source of stormlight so everything works fine. However, when regular people wear it, they need an alternate stormlight source, hence the need for gems. We see in Kaladin's fight that the shardplate can feed off of the stormlight from a radiant. 

[galendo]

On 3/2/2017 at 10:44 AM, Weltall said:

The gems that power modern Shardplate are located inside the armor so there's no way for Dalinar to tell whether Radiant armor had them or didn't just by looking at the outside.

I'm not sure that this is compelling evidence, though.  After all, I'm pretty certain that after they abandoned their Blades, their Plate fell off them as well.  So even if the gemstones were inside rather than out, Dalinar should have got a reasonably good look.

On 3/2/2017 at 11:09 PM, Thunder_93 said:

@galendo

Just looked it up again. It's even written in the Prologue of Way of Kings, that it actually is the gemstones that interfere, not the Plate itself:

 

Isn't that Szeth misunderstanding or misspeaking, though?  I mean, he carries a pouch of full spheres on his person, and there's no mention or even hint of that interfering with his lashings.  So it must be the Plate that interferes, not the gemstones.  Unless size matters for some reason, I guess.  The Plate uses big gemstones, and his pouch presumably has small ones.

11 hours ago, Patrick Star said:

No, it's not supposed to be.  We're not sure exactly what plate is made of, but it's likely either some sort of crystallized Stormlight or a bunch of lesser spren joining up.  I think the lesser spren idea is closer to the correct theory because that would be a better way to set up the differences between living and dead shardplate.

I agree with the lesser spren idea, but not because of the contrast between living and dead plate.  While dead Blades scream in Radiants' minds when they touch them, the Plate doesn't do so.  My theory, such as it is, is that modern Shardplate is made up of living spren trapped into place like we saw the fire spren trapped in the WoK interlude.  I'm not entirely sure that it's correct, but I don't think that Shardplate can be made out of dead spren.  Otherwise the Radiants should hear screaming, I'd expect.

[+Extesian]

56 minutes ago, galendo said:

I'm not sure that this is compelling evidence, though.  After all, I'm pretty certain that after they abandoned their Blades, their Plate fell off them as well.  So even if the gemstones were inside rather than out, Dalinar should have got a reasonably good look.

Isn't that Szeth misunderstanding or misspeaking, though?  I mean, he carries a pouch of full spheres on his person, and there's no mention or even hint of that interfering with his lashings.  So it must be the Plate that interferes, not the gemstones.  Unless size matters for some reason, I guess.  The Plate uses big gemstones, and his pouch presumably has small ones.

I agree with the lesser spren idea, but not because of the contrast between living and dead plate.  While dead Blades scream in Radiants' minds when they touch them, the Plate doesn't do so.  My theory, such as it is, is that modern Shardplate is made up of living spren trapped into place like we saw the fire spren trapped in the WoK interlude.  I'm not entirely sure that it's correct, but I don't think that Shardplate can be made out of dead spren.  Otherwise the Radiants should hear screaming, I'd expect.

Just spitballing here, but could the interference of the gemstones (assuming Szeth isn't wrong) be that Plate (at least, post-Recreance plate) is a fabrial and that the gemstones are different because they have spren trapped in them? We know fabrials are classed as a different magic system so could explain the interference and perhaps why it needs Stormlight.

[Calderis]

 

43 minutes ago, Extesian said:

Just spitballing here, but could the interference of the gemstones (assuming Szeth isn't wrong) be that Plate (at least, post-Recreance plate) is a fabrial and that the gemstones are different because they have spren trapped in them? We know fabrials are classed as a different magic system so could explain the interference and perhaps why it needs Stormlight.

I don't think there are trapped spren involved. It is mentioned that regrowing plate  typically shatters multiple gemstones and "special" gemstones are never mentioned. 

[+Extesian]

19 minutes ago, Calderis said:

 

I don't think there are trapped spren involved. It is mentioned that regrowing plate  typically shatters multiple gemstones and "special" gemstones are never mentioned. 

Ah you're completely right, how did I forget that they shatter? Thanks for getting that out of my mind quickly

[Spoolofwhool]

8 hours ago, Extesian said:

Ah you're completely right, how did I forget that they shatter? Thanks for getting that out of my mind quickly

Gems shatter when you pull stormlight out of them quickly I think. Similar reason they shatter in soulcasters. Otherwise, it's when you have conjoined fabrials applying a force on each other. 

[Jondesu]

12 hours ago, galendo said:

I agree with the lesser spren idea, but not because of the contrast between living and dead plate.  While dead Blades scream in Radiants' minds when they touch them, the Plate doesn't do so.  My theory, such as it is, is that modern Shardplate is made up of living spren trapped into place like we saw the fire spren trapped in the WoK interlude.  I'm not entirely sure that it's correct, but I don't think that Shardplate can be made out of dead spren.  Otherwise the Radiants should hear screaming, I'd expect.

You know, I've been a proponent of the lesser/cousin spren idea for a long time, and had never really thought about that detail.  I don't think it's exactly like the measuring idea we saw, but there may well be a connection, and you're right, that may be why it doesn't scream (instead of just them being non-sentient spren).