Trell theory

[Chinsukolo]

Hi folks, 

First post here, but I've been lurking for a while before creating my account.

Background data:

Trell is on Scadrial mucking things up.  Odium has issues with Harmony.  Autonomy has issues with religion and people having free will.  Many believe Autonomy and Odium to be working together. Odium currently trapper in Greater Roshar.  Autonomy is free to move abut and believed to have left Taldain, by Mistborn Era 2.  Trell minions on Scadrial have glowing red eyes.  At least 1 Kandra and another being type were controlled with hemalurgic spikes of a black and red marled metal.  Voidbringers have red eyes and are of Odium.  Parshmen/Parshendi have black and red marbled skin and are believed to be of Odium.

Overall Theory:   Trell is Autonomy (described by others and I agree), Odium is helping Autonomy as a way to muck around with Harmony while Odium is still stuck.  

Proposal: Odium helping Autonomy by providing the Void Metal or Odium metal spikes to enable her hemalurgic constructs/minions.  

That's why they have similar color to Parshmen, and the beings using them have red eyes like void bringers.  Autonomy gets to use the spikes to muck around on Scadrial while having some "CYA" / "wasn't me" ability, and posibly use something she can't do herself.  While Odium gets ways to attack/weaken/destroy Harmony without leaving Roshar.

 

That's my idea.

So what do you think and what are my theory holes?

Edited February 20, 2017 by Chinsukolo

[Spoolofwhool]

Honestly, there isn't really any evidence to refute your theory, but that's mainly because we don't have much substantial information to do more than speculate on the identity of Trell.

[AeonaRin she/her]

Yes, that is a theory many believe already  

[Chinsukolo]

1 hour ago, strumienpola said:

Yes, that is a theory many believe already  

That's the impression I had from reading/lurking here for a while, reading everyone else's theories is what made me think of the parshman description and spike description.  I just never found any posts connecting the spikes to Odium.  Just that Odium was helping in an unspecified/determined way.

[Markus]

Yes, I think that Trell is Autonomy, for some of the reasons you described and many more.  However, I think the spikes fit more as an Autonomy godmetal.  First of all, it blocks Harmonys influence, providing "autonomy" for the user.  Also, Odium couldn't make a godmetal spike without fully investing in the world, and we know he is on Roshar at that time.  Here is the WoB:

Quote

QUESTION

If another Shard came to Scadrial, would that be enough to create a godmetal?

BRANDON SANDERSON

If another shard just came to visit, probably not.

QUESTION

If they brought a spren or-

BRANDON SANDERSON

If they came and completely Invested the world, then things might start happening. But there's some special circumstances, remember. Ruin and Preservation created that planet. Specifically. And so there's some goofy things that happened because of that. For instance Roshar was not made by Honor, Cultivation, or Odium. That's one of the big differences about what's going on there.

 

[Chinsukolo]

5 minutes ago, Markus said:

Yes, I think that Trell is Autonomy, for some of the reasons you described and many more.  However, I think the spikes fit more as an Autonomy godmetal.  First of all, it blocks Harmonys influence, providing "autonomy" for the user.  Also, Odium couldn't make a godmetal spike without fully investing in the world, and we know he is on Roshar at that time.  

 

Actually I was thinking Autonomy brought the Odium spike from Roshar.  I.e. Odium is trapped, can't leave so makes the spikes for Autonomy to use, since we know she can move (and has already done so).

[Markus]

Just now, Chinsukolo said:

Actually I was thinking Autonomy brought the Odium spike from Roshar.  I.e. Odium is trapped, can't leave so makes the spikes for Autonomy to use, since we know she can move (and has already done so).

But Hemalurgy and the rest of the Metallic Arts are specific to Scadrial, right?  I think a godmetal could only be produced if the shard was on Scadrial, and my above WoB seems to support that.

[Brgst13]

5 minutes ago, Markus said:

But Hemalurgy and the rest of the Metallic Arts are specific to Scadrial, right?  I think a godmetal could only be produced if the shard was on Scadrial, and my above WoB seems to support that.

I'm pretty sure that we have a WoB that Shard blades are the God metal of Honor or Cultivation (depending on the spren).

 

[Chinsukolo]

9 minutes ago, Markus said:

But Hemalurgy and the rest of the Metallic Arts are specific to Scadrial, right?  I think a godmetal could only be produced if the shard was on Scadrial, and my above WoB seems to support that.

Hemalurgy is Cosmere wide.  There is a WoB about how he specifically wrote it to be available everywhere as a way to offset weak magic systems in other novels.

[Markus]

Oh, I didn't know that.  Maybe this is possbile, but I still think it's Autonomys because it frees Bleeder from Harmonys control.  Also, I doubt the red and black marbled skin connection because Parshendi aren't of Odium originally:

Quote

QUESTION

Are the Parshendi of Odium?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Not originally.

There are a couple of others that say that they aren't originally of Cultivation and they aren't at all of Honor.  

The red eyes connection seems valid though, because the stormform is definenently of Odium.

[Chinsukolo]

28 minutes ago, Markus said:

Oh, I didn't know that.  Maybe this is possbile, but I still think it's Autonomys because it frees Bleeder from Harmonys control.  Also, I doubt the red and black marbled skin connection because Parshendi aren't of Odium originally:

There are a couple of others that say that they aren't originally of Cultivation and they aren't at all of Honor.  

The red eyes connection seems valid though, because the stormform is definenently of Odium.

Good call - i didn't know that.

Maybe I have it backwards.  Maybe the spike is of Autonomy like you first mentioned, but maybe it's the Parshman who are "on loan".   Maybe they are from Autonomy, that would explain why they "use to" listen to the "old gods".  Brandon has said Autonomy as a single vessel is seen as an entire pantheon by some.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Chinsukolo said:

Good call - i didn't know that.

Maybe I have it backwards.  Maybe the spike is of Autonomy like you first mentioned, but maybe it's the Parshman who are "on loan".   Maybe they are from Autonomy, that would explain why they "use to" listen to the "old gods".  Brandon has said Autonomy as a single vessel is seen as an entire pantheon by some.

That's not what Brandon said.  He said that Bavadin has been usurping pre-existing pantheons. The gist is that Bavadin is pretending to be gods of other religions for some unknown purpose.

This does lend credence to the idea that Trell is Autonomy because Trell used to be a god in an old religion pre-Catacendre, but his goals now are a bit different than how it was described then.

[Khyrindor he/him]

There is a WoB which states that Odium would only work with another Shard if he were in charge. For this reason, I think that Autonomy is the one helping Odium in this relationship.

Further evidence I posit to this theory is that it seems like Autonomy helped Odium cause the Splintering on Sel, as both Autonomy's opposite (Dominion), and Odiums possible opposite (Devotion) were killed. There is also a WoB which states that Autonomy "in some way" helped Odium there, though I admit the questioner gave Brandon a lot of wiggle room there.

I know it seems odd that a Shard of Autonomy would be subservient to another Shard, but mostly I assume that a Shard's behavior doesn't apply to them-self. Preservation had no problem giving himself up, Ruin wasn't about to self-destruct. Endowment isn't giving herself anything. Odium probably doesn't hate himself. Therefore I have no problem with Autonomy possibly yielding to Odium's will if they have a common goal. It may even have to do with their relationship before the Shattering.

As for Odium being trapped, Era two is after at least Stormlight 5, so anything could happen between then. Odium may even be out.

I would direct you to this thread on for discussion and links to the WoBs I mentioned above.  Welcome to the Shard!

Edited February 20, 2017 by Khyrindor
Typo

[The One Who Connects he/him]

14 hours ago, Khyrindor said:

that it seems like Autonomy helped Ruin cause the Splintering on Sel,

That should be Odium, as you use Odium in the rest of that paragraph. Most of us know what you meant, but just in case someone new doesn't and gets confused.

[Khyrindor he/him]

28 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

That should be Odium, as you use Odium in the rest of that paragraph. Most of us know what you meant, but just in case someone new doesn't and gets confused.

Fixed, thanks.

[Dawnshard]

You know the fact that Odium is Invested on a planet might create a metal on that planet. Maybe All Gods make a metal, a liquid, and a gaseous state. So Odium has a God Metal and gave it to Autonomy to carry to Scandrial. 

[cometaryorbit]

Quite possibly, given that (minor Edgedancer spoilers)

Spoiler

bonded spren taking Shardblade-type Physical forms can take a variety of shapes but they all have to be made of metal,

the possibility for Splinters and Shards to manifest in metallic Physical form doesn't seem to be limited to Scadrial. That WoB might mean that to produce a Perpendicularity and "natural" god-metal production would require full Investment in Scadrial.

[Chinsukolo]

On 2/20/2017 at 5:09 PM, Dawnshard said:

You know the fact that Odium is Invested on a planet might create a metal on that planet. Maybe All Gods make a metal, a liquid, and a gaseous state. So Odium has a God Metal and gave it to Autonomy to carry to Scandrial. 

That's is what I was trying to suggest.   I guess I wasn't explaining it well enough.

[Chinsukolo]

On 2/19/2017 at 10:29 PM, Spoolofwhool said:

That's not what Brandon said.  He said that Bavadin has been usurping pre-existing pantheons. The gist is that Bavadin is pretending to be gods of other religions for some unknown purpose.

This does lend credence to the idea that Trell is Autonomy because Trell used to be a god in an old religion pre-Catacendre, but his goals now are a bit different than how it was described then.

[–]mistborn 49 points 2 months ago 

Bavadin has several male personas, and has often appeared as male for one purpose or another, so it's not that much of an issue. She has more female personas, but some of the male ones are quite popular.

This won't be relevant for a long while, but as a service to the community, let me say this: try not to get too hung up on gender, race, or even human appearance where Bavadin is concerned. There are some peoples who worship entire pantheons where every member is actually her.

https://www.reddit.com/r/brandonsanderson/comments/5f7cm0/autonomyspoilers/dainogu/

I can't make the yellow go away =(

 

My point was to reference the above WoB - Brandon says some peoples worship and entire pantheon and every member is still Autonomy (though they don't know this).    My point was the Listeners  "Old Gods" could be an example of this - where they think they have a pantheon to worship, but it's all just Autonomy.   

 

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[The One Who Connects he/him]

33 minutes ago, Chinsukolo said:

I can't make the yellow go away =(

Good rule of thumb is to put stuff like that in a quote of it's own, to keep the formatting separate.
All else fails, there should be a "remove format" button you can click to clear up selected text. I say should b/c I don't know if you are on mobile or if mobile has the button

[Blightsong he/him]

19 hours ago, Chinsukolo said:

[–]mistborn 49 points 2 months ago 

Bavadin has several male personas, and has often appeared as male for one purpose or another, so it's not that much of an issue. She has more female personas, but some of the male ones are quite popular.

This won't be relevant for a long while, but as a service to the community, let me say this: try not to get too hung up on gender, race, or even human appearance where Bavadin is concerned. There are some peoples who worship entire pantheons where every member is actually her.

https://www.reddit.com/r/brandonsanderson/comments/5f7cm0/autonomyspoilers/dainogu/

I can't make the yellow go away =(

 

My point was to reference the above WoB - Brandon says some peoples worship and entire pantheon and every member is still Autonomy (though they don't know this).    My point was the Listeners  "Old Gods" could be an example of this - where they think they have a pantheon to worship, but it's all just Autonomy.   

 

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There is a huge body of evidence suggesting that the Unamde are the Listeners gods, and we know that the Unmade are of Odium, so I doubt that Autonomy is secretly the Parshendi gods.