Twinborn People

[Themasterhunter]

Hello. First question on this site. Sorry if its terrible. I am happy to receive advice. Also, I am nowhere near as dedicated to some of the more hardcore users. 

The spoiler is for The Alloy of the Law Trilogy.

 

Spoiler

Twinborns. does this term refer to anyone with feruchemal and allomantic abilities? I know that was a stupid question, but i want to know from you guys. Would the Lord Ruler be considered a twinborn?

 

Also, can I get some input on how the "compounding" with twinborns works? Does it function both ways? I know that miles hundreslives can compound with bloodmaking, but what theoretically, would happen if he burned gold not invested by feruchemy, and if he burned fully invested gold. how would that work, and what would the temporal and spiritual consequences be if he touched his own gold shadow?

Be complicated if you have to with the explanations. I will understand most of it. at least briefly.

 

[Dunkum he/him]

1. Twinborn generally refers to anyone with both a Ferruchemical and Allomantic ability.  arguably this would apply to the lord ruler as well, but he is sort of a special case in a lot fo ways

2. the way compounding works is like this.  a person who has a ferruchemical and allomantic ability with the same metal can store an attribute to that metal and then burn it.  normally when accessing a ferruchemical trait, you can only take out as much invesitutre as you put in, but allomancy does not work that way, allomantic power comes from outside of a person.  they are literally channeling a portion of Preservation's power.  so when you burn a metalmind, the attribute that you stored to it overrides the normal allomantic ability of the metal (e.g. a burning a gold metalmind lets you access health, instead of the normal gold allomancy of viewing past/alternate versions of yourself), but the power is still coming from Preservation, so you end up getting more of it than you initially put in.  you can then store this power to a new metalmind and burn that, etc.  giving you access to an almost unlimited amount of the original attribute.

3. burning non-invested gold would not do anything unusual.  it would be the same as any other gold misting burning gold.  burning both at the same time probably wouldn't do anything special either

4. burning a bendalloymind would not stop time, or anything like that. Ferruchemically bendalloy stores nutrition.  so burnign it would basically provide a person with days or even years worth of a specific nutrient all at once.  in the real world this could very well kill a person, since a lot of nutrients are toxic in large quantities, but I am not sure what the result would look like in the cosmere.

5. as far as i am aware, the only thing we know about lerasium is that it can be used to establish a connection with Preservation (this is what turned Elend into a mistborn).  I do not believe we have an answer as to what it does in any of the 3 metallic arts beyond this.

[Themasterhunter]

Spoiler

What would happen with a TB that flared or used a fully invested bendalloymind? Could they stop time? And I need to know what would happen with a Lerasium twinborn.

 

Lerasium. Any theories on what happens? I would assume it does basically the same thing with Feruchemy that it does with allomancy. Anything stored in the metal could be used.

Possibly something similar to what Sazed accomplished with the harmony shard would happen. I have no idea. I want ideas though.

This is also for the previous.

[Spoolofwhool]

The Lord Ruler was a fullborn sincest he possessed all 32 powers.

[Yata he/him]

6 hours ago, Themasterhunter said:

Twinborns. does this term refer to anyone with feruchemal and allomantic abilities? I know that was a stupid question, but i want to know from you guys. Would the Lord Ruler be considered a twinborn?

Twinborn is a word to refer to someone who is both a Misting and a Ferring, with a bit of abuse you may probably use for TLR too, but notice nobody in the Era 2 never considerate the possibility with no more Fullborn other than him.

6 hours ago, Themasterhunter said:

Also, can I get some input on how the "compounding" with twinborns works? Does it function both ways? I know that miles hundreslives can compound with bloodmaking, but what theoretically, would happen if he burned gold not invested by feruchemy, and if he burned fully invested gold. how would that work, and what would the temporal and spiritual consequences be if he touched his own gold shadow?

Be complicated if you have to with the explanations. I will understand most of it. at least briefly.

The "Compound" is a mechanc that allow the user to fuel Feruchemy with Allomancy's power. This happen when you may burn a Metalmind to access its power.

This of course may happen if you are both a Misting and a Ferring of that metal (like Miles was) or with some special circumstances (that are out of this easy explaination).

What actual happen when you Compound, is burn a Metalmind and gain for this burning the Metalmind's Feruchemical charge tenfold back...this allow you to gain more attribute than the one originally stored in. Actually a Compounder can't do nothing a regular Feruchemist may do. Simply He has at almost infinite amount of Feruchemical Charge avaliable.

A clever Compounder may start with a little amount of charge and Compound it to almost infinity. Remember that you gain all this attributes in a huge flare as the metalmind burns...it's more than you usually need and therefore almost all the Compounder store the surplus in another metalmind to use it when they actual need.

6 hours ago, Themasterhunter said:

What would happen with a TB that flared or used a fully invested bendalloymind? Could they stop time?

As I said in the previous point, a Compounder only gain many times the attributed stored, so the Compounding replace the Allomantic effect and you will only gain a lot of Nutrition.

 

6 hours ago, Themasterhunter said:

And I need to know what would happen with a Lerasium twinborn.

Lerasium. Any theories on what happens? I would assume it does basically the same thing with Feruchemy that it does with allomancy. Anything stored in the metal could be used.

Possibly something similar to what Sazed accomplished with the harmony shard would happen. I have no idea. I want ideas though.

We don't know even if a Lerasium twinborn is possible, the Atium misting of era 1 happened for direct Preservation's interference in the Snapping. The only way to could compound Lerasium is to be a Full Feruchemist (because everyone could burn the Lerasium).

Also with this premise, we don't know what Attribute could be stored into Lerasium, because it's Feruchemical effect is unknown.

Lerasium's Allomantic Effect is "rewrite soul", the default outcome is to forge a strong connection to Preservation...this has as side effect to turn you into a Mistborn. But other things may be performed with it.

[Stark he/him]

5 hours ago, Yata said:

As I said in the previous point, a Compounder only gain many times the attributed stored, so the Compounding replace the Allomantic effect and you will only gain a lot of Nutrition.

I thought that it didn't replace the allomantic effect.  AoL specifically mentioned miles seeing his past self when burning his gold.  My understanding was that when you compounded, you accessed both the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers simultaneously, but at unregulated amounts of power.

 

Am I wrong?

[Yata he/him]

10 minutes ago, Stark said:

I thought that it didn't replace the allomantic effect.  AoL specifically mentioned miles seeing his past self when burning his gold.  My understanding was that when you compounded, you accessed both the Feruchemical and Allomantic powers simultaneously, but at unregulated amounts of power.

 

Am I wrong?

Miles in that istance, burns regular gold to gain the Allomantic effect, He did this sometime, like instrospective habit to remember what he could be.

He said it was a while from the last time He uses his Allomancy...He didn't see the Gold Shadows all the times.

[Themasterhunter]

So compounding doesn't give you any other allomantic abilities? like even a little? No copper cloud piercing? no pushing on metals inside a person? 

 

From what i understand, I thought it upped both abilities, but maybe I'm just thinking you could invest in a metal mind and then grind and burn it. 

I don't know. 

I still believe that using lerasium as a metal mind could let you store any ability. anything on that? could that at least be assumed?

 

[Themasterhunter]

12 hours ago, Dunkum said:

4. burning a bendalloymind would not stop time, or anything like that. Ferruchemically bendalloy stores nutrition.  so burnign it would basically provide a person with days or even years worth of a specific nutrient all at once.  in the real world this could very well kill a person, since a lot of nutrients are toxic in large quantities, but I am not sure what the result would look like in the cosmere.

 

But can't you invest the bendalloy feruchemally then grate and burn it for extra power?

wouldn't it get more powerful abilities?

Because I thought that was how it worked.

 

Maybe I'm just stupid.

[Yata he/him]

25 minutes ago, Themasterhunter said:

So compounding doesn't give you any other allomantic abilities? like even a little? No copper cloud piercing? no pushing on metals inside a person? 

 

From what i understand, I thought it upped both abilities, but maybe I'm just thinking you could invest in a metal mind and then grind and burn it. 

As I said you gain "only" more Charge than the one already there, and it's not a little gain.

25 minutes ago, Themasterhunter said:

I still believe that using lerasium as a metal mind could let you store any ability. anything on that? could that at least be assumed?

It's possible, but honestly there isn't any clue about. And indeed is a strange effect for the Feruchemical Lerasium...but as I said there isn't an answer to that.

EDIT: please avoid to post, multple posts, edit the previuous if you forgot to write something ;-)

Edited February 16, 2017 by Yata

[The One Who Connects he/him]

17 hours ago, Dunkum said:

4. burning a bendalloymind would not stop time, or anything like that. Ferruchemically bendalloy stores nutrition.  so burnign it would basically provide a person with days or even years worth of a specific nutrient all at once.  in the real world this could very well kill a person, since a lot of nutrients are toxic in large quantities, but I am not sure what the result would look like in the cosmere.

The real power with Compounding is that you can store most/all of that massive burst of power so that you have to spend less total time storing. So that days/weeks worth of nutrients would be used to fill up your metalmind "rations" rather than hypersaturate the body. Now that you mention specific nutrients, I'm curious if it just stores nutrition as a whole or if you need different ones for different things (Vit A, Protein, etc...)
It'd be less overpowered if it did, but either way a Bendalloy compounder would never have to eat again, provided they can afford enough of the metal. Given that it's an Allomantic metal, the market is gonna open up faster than it did on earth. Couple that with not having to buy food anymore, who knows.

[Dunkum he/him]

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

The real power with Compounding is that you can store most/all of that massive burst of power so that you have to spend less total time storing. So that days/weeks worth of nutrients would be used to fill up your metalmind "rations" rather than hypersaturate the body. Now that you mention specific nutrients, I'm curious if it just stores nutrition as a whole or if you need different ones for different things (Vit A, Protein, etc...)
It'd be less overpowered if it did, but either way a Bendalloy compounder would never have to eat again, provided they can afford enough of the metal. Given that it's an Allomantic metal, the market is gonna open up faster than it did on earth. Couple that with not having to buy food anymore, who knows.

well, yes, I'm aware (I thought I mentioned that in the compounding description).  just trying to hypothesize what would happen to a person who did not immediately store the new investiture.  with something like healing it wouldn't be a problem, I assume, but for nutrition...I doubt a body would handle thousands of food calories being inserted all at once.

and I think the coppermind suggests that it stores individual nutrients, but I am not sure how they arrived at that conclusion.

[Spoolofwhool]

46 minutes ago, Dunkum said:

well, yes, I'm aware (I thought I mentioned that in the compounding description).  just trying to hypothesize what would happen to a person who did not immediately store the new investiture.  with something like healing it wouldn't be a problem, I assume, but for nutrition...I doubt a body would handle thousands of food calories being inserted all at once.

and I think the coppermind suggests that it stores individual nutrients, but I am not sure how they arrived at that conclusion.

I think the Ars Arcanum says that subsumer ferrings can choose to store calories or fluids.

Generally when people compound, they immediately store the new charge into a new metalmind. 

Edited February 16, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Yata he/him]

12 hours ago, Dunkum said:

well, yes, I'm aware (I thought I mentioned that in the compounding description).  just trying to hypothesize what would happen to a person who did not immediately store the new investiture.  with something like healing it wouldn't be a problem, I assume, but for nutrition...I doubt a body would handle thousands of food calories being inserted all at once.

and I think the coppermind suggests that it stores individual nutrients, but I am not sure how they arrived at that conclusion.

Notice that Compound isn't a istant task, you didn't obtain all the Compounded's charge in a big flash...You still burn it with your Allomantic Strength so you need time to burn all the metalmind. Probably you will feel something wrong and stop compounding and if you continue fainting for some kind of shock (to sugar in the blood) before he reach a lethal point.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Yata

[AerionBFII he/him]

I generally refer to The Lord Ruler as a Fullborn or a Sliver to myself, just a personal preference as Twinborn just doesn't do him justice. The Lord Ruler must have been an absolute monster being able to Compound all of the metals.

This has probably been explained by far more knowledgeable Sharders than myself but put simply a Twinborn refers to a being who has access to both one Allomantic metal and one Feruchemical metal. A person who has access to only one Allomantic power is simply a Misting, a person who has access to only one Feruchemy power is a Ferring.

The best example of Twinborn compounding is between Wayne and Miles HundredLives. Both are Bloodmakers, which they use Gold to store health, the difference between them is that Wayne is a Allomantic Slider (Bendalloy) which enables him to use Speed Bubbles. Miles however is an Augur (Gold) Both of his metals are Gold. Which allows him to Store Health in his metalmind and then use Allomancy to burn it giving him a supercharged burst of power.

 

[Weltall]

On 2/16/2017 at 6:48 AM, Themasterhunter said:

I still believe that using lerasium as a metal mind could let you store any ability. anything on that? could that at least be assumed?

No, not really. If you're thinking of it as the opposite of atium being able to steal any attribute, remember that's how it works in Hemalurgy. We can't automatically assume that a different metal in a different magic system will have a similar effect, just because. Now, it's possible that's lerasium's Feruchemical property but it seems unlikely. Atium is useful in Hemalurgy because it works better than any other type of spike and (rather obviously) it can steal the ability to burn atium itself. Its Allomantic property is its best attribute and its Feruchemical property is interesting, becoming downright broken if you can compound it.

Given that, the other godmetal should do something useful in all three systems as well. We know it's ridiculously powerful in Allomancy (and has the potential to do other things to the spiritweb besides 'make you an uber-Mistborn') and it would make little sense to waste it as a metalmind, when the other metals are readily available in far greater quantity. We know that with a lot of work you can make a metalmind out of all sixteen metals (possibly seventeen, we don't know if our example included atium) and thus get the ability to 'store anything' without having to waste lerasium.

[Yata he/him]

59 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Given that, the other godmetal should do something useful in all three systems as well. We know it's ridiculously powerful in Allomancy (and has the potential to do other things to the spiritweb besides 'make you an uber-Mistborn') and it would make little sense to waste it as a metalmind, when the other metals are readily available in far greater quantity. We know that with a lot of work you can make a metalmind out of all sixteen metals (possibly seventeen, we don't know if our example included atium) and thus get the ability to 'store anything' without having to waste lerasium.

Like I said before I don't think Lerasium works as universal Metalmind...but your logic about the useness is quite a no sense to me. The Metals don't need to be at the same level.

It's not a game where the powers need to be balanced because for the game's sake. It's possible that a metal is quite useless, because for Realmatic reason, that godmetal have to work in that way into a specific magic system.

[The Technovore he/him]

On 2/16/2017 at 7:48 AM, Themasterhunter said:

So compounding doesn't give you any other allomantic abilities? like even a little? No copper cloud piercing? no pushing on metals inside a person? 

 

From what i understand, I thought it upped both abilities, but maybe I'm just thinking you could invest in a metal mind and then grind and burn it. 

 

Well... You might be able to up your Allomantic abilities, but it's kinda of a big "if". 

You see, Nicrosil Feruchemically stores investiture. It's unclear (and by that I mean I'm unclear) how exactly this works, but ASSUMING that it allows you to store your investiture for a while, then tap it to become a "Super-Wizard", you could compound Nicrosil to get a massive Investiture boost, then use that extra power to do things with allomancy like pierce a copper cloud and push the metals inside a person.

In fact, if that's indeed how Nicrosil works, then that probably explains how TLR was able to push the metals in Vin's body in The Final Empire.

(Dang Fullborns are freaking OP, plz nerf )

Edited March 2, 2017 by The Technovore

[Themasterhunter]

Quote

(Dang Fullborns are freaking OP, plz nerf )

Haha. so true tho

[Markus]

On 2/16/2017 at 9:48 AM, Themasterhunter said:

So compounding doesn't give you any other allomantic abilities? like even a little? No copper cloud piercing? no pushing on metals inside a person? 

 

From what i understand, I thought it upped both abilities, but maybe I'm just thinking you could invest in a metal mind and then grind and burn it. 

I don't know. 

We have seen Feruchemical abilities used to increase Allomantic abilites.  For example, when increasing his weight, Wax can Push incredibly hard.  I don't think that would fall under compounding though.

[Weltall]

Yeah, that's just using the fact that your Feruchemical ability happens to manipulate a trait that your Allomantic ability relies upon so it's not really 'reverse compounding' though it could technically be thought of as 'enhancing Allomancy with Feruchemy'. You could do the same thing with a double Tin modulating how much of a boost you get and to which sense via selective storing/tapping, or with F-Iron/A-Pewter, F-Zinc/A-Electrum... but again that's just neat ways the abilities can play off one another. It's not like the boosted Allomancy that Vin got with Copper thanks to her earring spike or that Steel Inquisitors got from multiple A-Steel spikes.

[Mati]

On 18.02.2017 at 9:07 PM, Yata said:

On 18.02.2017 at 8:04 PM, Weltall said:

Given that, the other godmetal should do something useful in all three systems as well. We know it's ridiculously powerful in Allomancy (and has the potential to do other things to the spiritweb besides 'make you an uber-Mistborn') and it would make little sense to waste it as a metalmind, when the other metals are readily available in far greater quantity. We know that with a lot of work you can make a metalmind out of all sixteen metals (possibly seventeen, we don't know if our example included atium) and thus get the ability to 'store anything' without having to waste lerasium.

Like I said before I don't think Lerasium works as universal Metalmind...but your logic about the useness is quite a no sense to me. The Metals don't need to be at the same level.

It's not a game where the powers need to be balanced because for the game's sake. It's possible that a metal is quite useless, because for Realmatic reason, that godmetal have to work in that way into a specific magic system.

It's powerful in allomancy probably because it comes from same source as allomancy itself - it's like piece of preservation, so it's understandable for it being powerful there, just like atium being able to store anything hemarulgicaly being practicaly piece of Ruin. About them having to be useful in all metal using systems, you have atium being able to store age, but without compunding it would be mostly useless there.

[King Cole he/him]

If you think about it, The Lord Ruler was a 32-born because he had the powers of a Mistborn and a Feruchemist. 

Also if you were a steel compounder, could you move at the speed of light if you stored enough investure in a steelmind?

[Jondesu he/him]

10 minutes ago, King Cole said:

If you think about it, The Lord Ruler was a 32-born because he had the powers of a Mistborn and a Feruchemist. 

Also if you were a steel compounder, could you move at the speed of light if you stored enough investure in a steelmind?

We've been told the speed of a steel compounder would be limited by friction. More specifically, they'd burn to a crisp once they went too fast, because of air resistance.

[King Cole he/him]

3 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

We've been told the speed of a steel compounder would be limited by friction. More specifically, they'd burn to a crisp once they went too fast, because of air resistance.

Makes sense

[The Technovore he/him]

 

21 minutes ago, King Cole said:

If you think about it, The Lord Ruler was a 32-born because he had the powers of a Mistborn and a Feruchemist. 

Also if you were a steel compounder, could you move at the speed of light if you stored enough investure in a steelmind?

Well... probably not, because physics, but you be able to move quickly enough to dilate time around you, so every thing else is practically stopped because you're moving so fast... but that raises other questions.

How do you control yourself while moving so quickly? One could argue that it accelerates your mind as well, but then what's the point of Zinc? If you perceive everyone else as moving slowly, then that means that your mind HAS to be processing faster, otherwise you wouldn't be able to process your own movements. 

Not to mention that at at those speeds the atmosphere itself would super-heat and tear you apart, but I suppose A-pewter and F-Gold could counteract that. When you really think about it you realize that these powers really compliment, and maybe NEED each other in order to be used to their full potential.

lol I got ninja'd x2

Edited March 6, 2017 by The Technovore