Nightblood - So What?

[Spoolofwhool]

13 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

Sorry, organic was the wrong word.  Something that was once a living body wouldn't work, though, such as a human or animal body, or it seems even just significant parts of them like the skeletons. I don't believe you'd be able to make a Nightblood squirrel, for instance, only a Lifeless squirrel like Vasher does.  Straw should work fine, I would assume.

EDIT: I guess the best classification is that Type II were once sentient and then awakened with sentience, while Type IV were never sentient, but are after they are awakened.

Yes. So my original correction was correct then? Because the fact that it's metal has nothing to do with being a Type 4? 

Also, I feel like if you awakened a single bone it would be Type III.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Jondesu he/him]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Yes. So my original correction was correct then? Because the fact that it's metal has nothing to do with being a Type 4? 

Also, I feel like if you awakened a single bone it would be Type III.

Heh, yep, you were correct.  Of course, it does kinda have to do with the material still, since something once sentient wouldn't work for a Type 4, but it's not the organic/non-organic boundary you were correcting, much more cognitive or spiritually based I would assume.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Jondesu said:

Heh, yep, you were correct.  Of course, it does kinda have to do with the material still, since something once sentient wouldn't work for a Type 4, but it's not the organic/non-organic boundary you were correcting, much more cognitive or spiritually based I would assume.

Yeah. The breath permanently sticking to the lifeless probably has to do with the body beforehand cognitively still seeing itself somewhat as a person, coupled with the remnants of the spiritual the body had in life. This does beg a couple of interesting questions. I wonder if you could make a lifeless out of a corpse which died due to spiritual damage such as hemalurgic theft or sprenblade strike. Also, what if you had the body of a sentient metal organism such as a robot? Lifeless robot maybe?

[Jofwu he/him]

4 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I've been under the impression that the material didn't matter though the Coppermind says otherwise.

Spool, what are you referring to on Coppermind? All I see under Type IV is an ambiguous:

Quote

Type IV entities are Awakened objects with sentience.

Were you referring to something about one of the other "Types"?

Anyways...

Warbreaker chapter 46:

Quote

“Type One is a human body with sentience,” Vivenna said. “Type Two is a human body without sentience. Type three is an Awakened object like a rope—an object with no sentience. Is there a way to create an Awakened object with sentience? Like a Returned, but inside of something other than a human body?”

Without further evidence, it seems to me that the four types should be:

One: human body with sentience
Two: human body without sentience
Three: non-human object without sentience
Four: non-human object with sentience.

This does make animals a bit ambiguous. Can you have a Returned animal? Or can you only go Type 4? I imagine that by "organic" they were (poorly) referring to something animal.

[Oversleep]

8 minutes ago, jofwu said:

Without further evidence, it seems to me that the four types should be:

One: human body with sentience
Two: human body without sentience
Three: non-human object without sentience
Four: non-human object with sentience.

This does make animals a bit ambiguous. Can you have a Returned animal? Or can you only go Type 4? I imagine that by "organic" they were (poorly) referring to something animal.

We have evidence of animal Lifeless though. On the other hand Awakened objects (as understood commonly) have to be organic or at least be amde from something organic in order to work (as Awakening stone and metal is only possible at Ninth Heightening.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Oversleep

[Spoolofwhool]

51 minutes ago, jofwu said:

Spool, what are you referring to on Coppermind? All I see under Type IV is an ambiguous:

From the Coppermind:

Quote

Type IV BioChromatic entities are sentient objects made by Awakening inorganic materials like metal and stone.

This is what I was referring to. Read the whole sentence next time please.

55 minutes ago, jofwu said:

Without further evidence, it seems to me that the four types should be:

One: human body with sentience
Two: human body without sentience
Three: non-human object without sentience
Four: non-human object with sentience.

This does make animals a bit ambiguous. Can you have a Returned animal? Or can you only go Type 4? I imagine that by "organic" they were (poorly) referring to something animal.

Two through four are imprecise the only requirement that we know of is that two requires the body of something which was sentient while three and four require objects which are not the complete body of something which was sentient. We saw an awakened squirrel in Warbreaker and you ca probably create a type three entity from a piece of a once-sentient organism. Organic means that it had to have been part of something alive at one point. Plant matter can be awakened by anyone as well. 

Organic (presumably this definition):

Quote

a (1) :  of, relating to, or derived from living organisms <organic evolution> (2) :  of, relating to, yielding, or involving the use of food produced with the use of feed or fertilizer of plant or animal origin without employment of chemically formulated fertilizers, growth stimulants, antibiotics, or pesticides <organic farming> <organic produce>

- Merriam-Webster

 

 

[Jofwu he/him]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

This is what I was referring to. Read the whole sentence next time please.

Two through four are imprecise the only requirement that we know of is that two requires the body of something which was sentient while three and four require objects which are not the complete body of something which was sentient. We saw an awakened squirrel in Warbreaker and you ca probably create a type three entity from a piece of a once-sentient organism. Organic means that it had to have been part of something alive at one point. Plant matter can be awakened by anyone as well. 

Easy, I was quoting from the BioChromatic Breath page, which is where I expected discussion on the four types to be. You were looking at the Awakening page, I see now.

Like I said, the choice of "organic" was poor.

Seems like there's room for interesting discussion on 2 and 3 though. What's the difference between an Awakened human, an Awakened squirrel, and an Awakened pile of straw in the shape of a human/animal? Don't remember the story well enough. The amount of Breaths required? Are we sure the squirrel would be considered Type 3?

Sounds like you would argue that when Vasher says "human body" he really means "something that was once sentient"? I buy that.

[Spoolofwhool]

5 minutes ago, jofwu said:

Seems like there's room for interesting discussion on 2 and 3 though. What's the difference between an Awakened human, an Awakened squirrel, and an Awakened pile of straw in the shape of a human/animal? Don't remember the story well enough. The amount of Breaths required? Are we sure the squirrel would be considered Type 3?

Sounds like you would argue that when Vasher says "human body" he really means "something that was once sentient"? I buy that.

A pile of straw is not from something which was once sentient, nor is it still in a shape which approximates the intact remains of that once-sentient entity. That seems to be the main criteria. The amount of breaths required doesn't matter as you can create lifeless with a single breath. If I recall correctly, Vasher identifies the squirrel as being a lifeless, and since the definitions of type are defined by him, that makes it Type II. 

Also, Vasher never used human body when he was describing the types of awakened entities. Vivenna was the one to do so. Here are quotes on the matter:

Quote

"There are four kinds of BioChromatic entities. The first, and most spectacular, are the Returned. They’re called gods here in Hallandren, but I’d rather call them Spontaneous Sentient BioChromatic Manifestations in a Deceased Host."
"Type Two being Mindless Manifestations in a Deceased Host." " Because of their organic host, their Breath clings to the body, and cannot be withdrawn once Invested. "

“Creating Type Three BioChromatic entities is what we traditionally call ‘Awakening,’ ” Vasher continued. “That’s when you create a BioChromatic manifestation in an organic host that is far removed from having been alive. Cloth works the best, though sticks, reeds, and other plant matter can be used.”

- Vasher, Warbreaker, Chapter 46

I think when Vasher says that Type IIIs have to be in an organic host, he's simplifying it down to what anyone can do. 

Also, something else he says does imply that awakening skeletons doesn't create lifeless, as the breath can be recovered. 

[Jofwu he/him]

35 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Also, something else he says does imply that awakening skeletons doesn't create lifeless, as the breath can be recovered. 

But doesn't he call Kalad's Phantoms Lifeless? Maybe not...

[Spoolofwhool]

34 minutes ago, jofwu said:

But doesn't he call Kalad's Phantoms Lifeless? Maybe not...

I'm just saying that's what he implied. He said that bones aren't that flexible and can't hold their shape and flesh is better, but the breath can't be recovered. Check chapter 46 for the exact quote.

[+Extesian he/him]

4 hours ago, jofwu said:

Easy, I was quoting from the BioChromatic Breath page, which is where I expected discussion on the four types to be. You were looking at the Awakening page, I see now.

Like I said, the choice of "organic" was poor.

Seems like there's room for interesting discussion on 2 and 3 though. What's the difference between an Awakened human, an Awakened squirrel, and an Awakened pile of straw in the shape of a human/animal? Don't remember the story well enough. The amount of Breaths required? Are we sure the squirrel would be considered Type 3?

Sounds like you would argue that when Vasher says "human body" he really means "something that was once sentient"? I buy that.

We recently got confirmation that even after death the Spiritweb lingers in the spiritual realm (reddit I think). Could this be the difference between a dead living thing and inanimate material shaped like a living thing? Just a thought, no time right now to find the WoB.

Edit: found the WoB I was thinking of, from the Reddit Stormlight update recently

Quote

Q: Is death in the Cosmere a two-stage process? It seems to me like (under normal circumstances) the body dies first, sending the mind fully in the Cognitive Realm; the soul, presumably, remains in the Spiritual for the entire process. I am a little unclear on what happens after that though - what is it that passes into the Beyond, just the mind? Does the soul / spiritual aspect / Spiritweb just kind of... break down in the Spiritual Realm, turn into free investiture?

A: Yes. It's a two stage process, and most of what you said is correct. The odd thing is, though, that the spiritweb doesn't completely break down (just like your body doesn't immediately break down.) Even after a long time, there's a record of that spirit web in the spiritual realm.

Basically I'm thinking the difference is that a dead thing once had a spiritweb and that's still floating around out there whereas something inanimate never did, and awakening latches onto the spiritweb record, which is why it's easier to awaken something that was once alive. Happy to be corrected.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Extesian
WoB

[cometaryorbit]

"An organic host that is far removed from having been alive" doesn't specify it has to be animal... I wonder if you Awakened a whole dead tree (as opposed to a stick or wooden object), would it be Type II or III?

[Jondesu he/him]

40 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

"An organic host that is far removed from having been alive" doesn't specify it has to be animal... I wonder if you Awakened a whole dead tree (as opposed to a stick or wooden object), would it be Type II or III?

Vasher's definition focused not on being alive or organic, but sentient. Brandon uses that for self-aware creatures, like animals, and uses sapience to additionally distinguish human-like intelligence. I would assume that only self-aware animals would make Type II Awakened Entities, i.e. Lifeless.

[Spoolofwhool]

17 hours ago, Jondesu said:

Vasher's definition focused not on being alive or organic, but sentient. Brandon uses that for self-aware creatures, like animals, and uses sapience to additionally distinguish human-like intelligence. I would assume that only self-aware animals would make Type II Awakened Entities, i.e. Lifeless.

He uses those definitions because that's what sentience and sapience actually mean.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[Jondesu he/him]

16 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

He uses those definitions because that's are what sentience and sapience actually mean.

Heh, I know, most people just don't use the distinguisher of sapience and consider humans and animals all sentient, and then have trouble describing what makes humans different.

Edit: my point being that sentience, not sapience, is the important factor, and explains why a tree couldn't be a Lifeless, while an animal can.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Jondesu

[Spoolofwhool]

2 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

Heh, I know, most people just don't use the distinguisher of sapience and consider humans and animals all sentient, and then have trouble describing what makes humans different.

I know. Sci-fi, along with a lot of other fiction, really has ruined that definition for us.

[+Extesian he/him]

1 hour ago, Jondesu said:

Heh, I know, most people just don't use the distinguisher of sapience and consider humans and animals all sentient, and then have trouble describing what makes humans different.

Edit: my point being that sentience, not sapience, is the important factor, and explains why a tree couldn't be a Lifeless, while an animal can.

I guess it's a cognitive thing. Sentient life has its own cognitive image of itself whereas non-sentient life only had the cognitive presence that sentient life gives it. And perhaps sapient life can then alter its own cognitive image? I have no idea then what level is needed for spiritweb, sentience or sapience. And which category Stick falls into.

[Jondesu he/him]

Just now, Extesian said:

I guess it's a cognitive thing. Sentient life has its own cognitive image of itself whereas non-sentient life only had the cognitive presence that sentient life gives it. And perhaps sapient life can then alter its own cognitive image? I have no idea then what level is needed for spiritweb, sentience or sapience. And which category Stick falls into.

I think it's been indicated that animals have a spiritweb, just not one as complex or as well developed as humans.  Hemalurgy worked with animals, after all, though with some weird effects since the spikes were then put into humans.

[Rage_Fortress he/him]

16 hours ago, Jondesu said:

Heh, I know, most people just don't use the distinguisher of sapience and consider humans and animals all sentient, and then have trouble describing what makes humans different.

Edit: my point being that sentience, not sapience, is the important factor, and explains why a tree couldn't be a Lifeless, while an animal can.

I love things like this, I consider myself to be moderately intelligent,  IQ of 131, was in the gifted class and all that jazz. I'm nearly 30 and until reading this forum post I had never heard the term sapience before. It really gives a "There's always another secret" aspect to the real world. I know scientists have been saying this forever. I just love learning about new things no one thought to teach me. That's a pretty important distinction between sentience and sapience.

 

[Spoolofwhool]

20 minutes ago, theuntaintedchild said:

It really gives a "There's always another secret" aspect to the real world. I know scientists have been saying this forever. I just love learning about new things no one thought to teach me. That's a pretty important distinction between sentience and sapience.

It's not really a secret though, more like we've (society) gotten lazy at using proper word definitions.

[Faceless Mist-Wraith he/him]

Something I thought of when I was trying to think of powers that all sentient Awakened objects would share, would be the mind control aspect. Night blood is able to influence/control evil people, making them want to "destroy evil". Maybe what Vasher was afraid of was someone created a awakened object that could control people in other ways.

That could be frightening, if someone could create a weapon that could control other people, especially if it could work on a massive scale. Instant mind control army. That's the best reason I could come up with.

[Pattern he/him]

Obviously, as Stick has stated clearly - and repeatedly -
Stick is a stick.

Stick is not awakened, so it is neither class, but, as an object, Stick could be awakened as a Class III or IV entity. Stick's strong cognitive personality makes a demanding and convincing application to be awakened as a Class IV entity.

As for Nightblood: I guess the biggest threat comes from Nightblood consuming Investiture exponentially with his drawing-duration. I am not quite sure, but I think I read somewhere that Investiture consumed by Nightblood is corrupted and does not return to the system. So Nightblood could be a means to destroy or corrupt a Shard's Investiture completely, if one could lure a Vessel to draw him long enough.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Pattern
Typo devil

[The One Who Connects he/him]

On 2/14/2017 at 7:14 PM, Jondesu said:

Vasher's definition focused not on being alive or organic, but sentient. Brandon uses that for self-aware creatures, like animals, and uses sapience to additionally distinguish human-like intelligence. I would assume that only self-aware animals would make Type II Awakened Entities, i.e. Lifeless.

Edit: my point being that sentience, not sapience, is the important factor, and explains why a tree couldn't be a Lifeless, while an animal can.

On 2/14/2017 at 8:58 PM, Jondesu said:

I think it's been indicated that animals have a spiritweb, just not one as complex or as well developed as humans.  Hemalurgy worked with animals, after all, though with some weird effects since the spikes were then put into humans.

I have something to add to this whole line of thought, something that has stood on the Hemalurgy page on the Coppermind for ages, even though nobody has found a proper source yet. It lends credence to your Lifeless animal, but Type III tree idea.

Quote

Hemalurgy "doesn't really work on trees".^{[Citation needed]}

Edit: It does have a source.. kind of. It's hidden in the edit history.

Edited February 16, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Jondesu he/him]

12 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I have something to add to this whole line of thought, something that has stood on the Hemalurgy page on the Coppermind for ages, even though nobody has found a proper source yet. It lends credence to your Lifeless animal, but Type III tree idea.

Yep, though since trees don't have blood, that's basically a dealbreaker for Hemalurgy.