[Theory] Could the Honorblades be spikes?

[mattstocum]

Based on the recent WoB that the Heralds are a form of Cognitive Shadow, is it possible that their Honorblades are a form of Hemalurgic spike? Not in the sense we've seen before in Mistborn, but something using similar principals to reattach their thread to the Physical Realm? My basic thought is that when the Heralds die, they actually die, but because they're so Invested, they don't vanish into the Beyond, or whatever it's called, but stick around in the Cognitive Realm on Braize. Here their Cognitive Shadows are tortured, but they suffer no physical damage, similar to when Hoid beat up Kel in SH. Eventually, they all return to Roshar using their Honorblades to re-attach themselves to a physical body. This might explain why the Honorblades vanish when the Herald dies, since it's bound to their soul.

[Just another guyn]

Interesting theory. Are you saying honor used hemelurgy on himself? also, how then could the Soren mimic what he did? Did they themselves steal parts of honor and cultivations spirit web?

[mattstocum]

49 minutes ago, Just another guyn said:

Interesting theory. Are you saying honor used hemelurgy on himself? also, how then could the Soren mimic what he did? Did they themselves steal parts of honor and cultivations spirit web?

Not hemalurgy as we've seen it in Mistborn. I don't think that Honor used a spike to pierce either himself or someone else, but I think he did something similar to what Kelsier did to come back from the dead. I think Honor took the Heralds, and either killed them, or perhaps they were already dead, and used his Investiture to bring them back. I believe this is similar to what Endowment does with the Returned, instead of the Heralds having a Divine Breath keeping them alive, they have the Honorblade. I think the Honorblade is what is actually keeping their soul bound to their physical bodies. Using an Honorblade consumes Stormlight at a faster rate than a Shardblade, but doesn't seem to grant any strength beyond a Shardblade. This implies to me that there's something else going on than just granting Surges to the wielder. The Returned (and possibly the Elantrians if you believe they are also Cognitive Shadows) seem to provide evidence that keeping a Cognitive Shadow alive in the Physical Realm requires a constant supply of Investiture. We've already seen that Stormlight can be used as a substitute for Breath, at least for the purpose of keeping a Returned alive.

As far as the Spren are concerned, I don't think they followed the exact method Honor used, but copied to the best of their ability. The Knights Radient can heal themselves with Investiture, for example, but they can't return from the dead. The Spren also have to fully bond to the KR, where Honor doesn't seem like he had to fully Invest himself in the Heralds.

Maybe a better way of looking at this is, "does Hemalurgy hijack the method by which a Shard can Invest itself in a human?" In other words, Honorblades aren't a form of hemalurgy, but hemalurgy is a form of whatever process Honor used with the Heralds, and that Endowment used with the Returned, and that Devotion/Dominion used with the Elantrians.

[The One Who Connects]

21 minutes ago, mattstocum said:

I think Honor took the Heralds, and either killed them, or perhaps they were already dead, and used his Investiture to bring them back. 

There's a fairly big issue with that thing, at least if this aspect of Vorinism is accurate. Proving Day.

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What is Proving Day in Vorin mythology?

Brandon Sanderson

Uhhhm, equivalent of Bar Mitzvah.

Quoth the Coppermind, Proving Day is believed to be how the Heralds were chosen. Shallan's statement of " Your demands are about as reasonable as the ones made of the Ten Heralds on Proving Day!" implies that they were asked to do difficult, maybe impossible tasks. It's not a guarantee that they didn't die in some way, but it makes it less likely.

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34 minutes ago, mattstocum said:

The Returned (and possibly the Elantrians if you believe they are also Cognitive Shadows) seem to provide evidence that keeping a Cognitive Shadow alive in the Physical Realm requires a constant supply of Investiture.

Elantrians are not cognitive shadows, as they don't die when initiated. Credit to Khyrindor for asking the question.

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Khyrindor

Quick question if you're still answering: You've said that Returned count as Cognitive shadows "stapled" back into their bodies, and that the Heralds are at least similar. Would I be right in assuming that Elantrians could be considered as Cognitive Shadows as well, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

 

Brandon

Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created.

Recognize that the term cognitive shadow is an in-cosmere theory, which I'm not going to comment on as the creator of the setting. The theory is this:

Investiture seeks sapience. It looks for someone to control it or, in some instances, spontaneously adopts personality.

A mind (cognitive aspect of a person) can become infused with Investiture. This acts a little like minerals with petrified wood, replacing the mind and personality with investiture.

When the actual person dies, this investiture imprint remains behind. A copy of the soul, but not the actual soul.

Others disagree with this, and think the soul itself persists. Still others reject the theory in its entirety.

I have no argument about the rest of that sentence.

39 minutes ago, mattstocum said:

Using an Honorblade consumes Stormlight at a faster rate than a Shardblade, but doesn't seem to grant any strength beyond a Shardblade.

Last thing, we cannot yet prove if this is the same for the Heralds, or if normal people are an "imperfect host" (implying that they were made specifically for the Heralds, which makes a lot of sense)

[mattstocum]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Quoth the Coppermind, Proving Day is believed to be how the Heralds were chosen. Shallan's statement of " Your demands are about as reasonable as the ones made of the Ten Heralds on Proving Day!" implies that they were asked to do difficult, maybe impossible tasks. It's not a guarantee that they didn't die in some way, but it makes it less likely.

It also doesn't mean Honor didn't kill them at the end of the process. We know that the Heralds do die, and that at the end of a Desolation they're supposed to either die, or voluntarily return to Damnation.

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Brandon

Elantrians are something different. They don't actually "die" to be created.

This actually makes me think that the Heralds did have to die before becoming Heralds, since Brandon brought death up without the questioner asking. (side note: good to 

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Last thing, we cannot yet prove if this is the same for the Heralds, or if normal people are an "imperfect host" (implying that they were made specifically for the Heralds, which makes a lot of sense)

Agreed.

From later in the reddit thread you posted:

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Someone else who has a soul stapled to a body with Hemalurgy would count [as a Cognitive Shadow] though.

I feel like this kind of supports my idea if you work backwards through it, or at least doesn't disprove it. If a person who has their soul stapled to a body via Hemalurgy is a Cognitive Shadow, and Heralds are a form of Cognitive Shadows, it's at least possible that the Heralds have their souls stapled to their bodies via a process similar to Hemalurgy. I think what may be happening with Hemalurgy is that it's not the spike specifically that's important, just the fact that it's Invested, and that it manages to pierce the soul of the person. What I think is happening with the Heralds and the Honorblades is the same principle. The Honorblades are Investiture and that they're attached to the soul of the Heralds through some means.

[The One Who Connects]

9 minutes ago, mattstocum said:

since Brandon brought death up without the questioner asking.

I think that death was technically brought up in the question by virtue of talking about the Returned. But that's more semantics than anything else.

11 minutes ago, mattstocum said:

Quote

Someone else who has a soul stapled to a body with Hemalurgy would count [as a Cognitive Shadow] though.

I feel like this kind of supports my idea if you work backwards through it, or at least doesn't disprove it. If a person who has their soul stapled to a body via Hemalurgy is a Cognitive Shadow, and Heralds are a form of Cognitive Shadows, it's at least possible that the Heralds have their souls stapled to their bodies via a process similar to Hemalurgy. I think what may be happening with Hemalurgy is that it's not the spike specifically that's important, just the fact that it's Invested, and that it manages to pierce the soul of the person.

I'm pretty sure that line is more of a direct reference to a certain troublemaker than a general statement, but I largely agree with your ideas based off of it. This feels like a pattern though, with different magic systems being able to do the same things: Aon Shao and Soulcasting | Gold Feruchemy, Stormlight, Breath and Aon Ien can all heal | Aon Tia and Elsecalling | etc...

Soul Stapling, for lack of a better name, can be done via a Hemalurgic Spike, a Divine Breath, an Honorblade (presumably) and some process on Threnody(Shades)

[mattstocum]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Soul Stapling, for lack of a better name, can be done via a Hemalurgic Spike, a Divine Breath, an Honorblade (presumably) and some process on Threnody(Shades)

Soul Stapling, I like it!

[Fezzik]

This fits with my theory that ambition is Trell, and Trellium brings cognitive shadows into the physical realm, like shades (trell's faceless immortals) and kelsier.

[teknopathetic]

I also think ambition is Trell, but I haven't decided if Ambition is shattered or an Ambition Shadow is manipulating events. If there was one shard that might want to be shattered in order to achieve victory, it would be ambition. Maybe Ambition figured something out - seeming dead would be the best defense. Ambition did get to see Devotion and Dominion be shattered, so maybe Ambition had a plan? 

Edited January 24, 2017 by teknopathetic

[Spoolofwhool]

With regards to the premise that the Honorblades must have some other function because they don't seem to exhibit much power, I would like to point out that we probably don't know the full scope of the Honorblades' power. My opinion is that the Honorblades were designed for Heraldic use, and therefore cannot be properly wielded unless by a Herald under the constraints of the Oathpact. In addition, we know that the Heralds did possesses greater strength than they are exhibiting now, and it would stand to somega reason that that was because they had their Honorblades.  

So overall, what I'm saying is that while I agree that the Honorblades are bound to the Heralds, I disagree that they are the cause of them being bound to physical bodies as cognitive shadows. The reason being is that first, only one Herald, that we know of, is holding his Honorblade, and the others are still bound to their bodies. (I'll admit that the Cognitive issues they're encountering could be a point towards themail not having their blades, save that Nale is still fairly unstable with it.) They aren't bound to their Honorblades anymore as they cannot surgebind. Also, if the Honorblades are the source of their binding, they probably know that they would be and would've been a lot more hesitant to abandon them. Their mentality at the Last Desolation pointed more towards the blades of being a connection to the Oathpact than maintaining their existence. I think it's the Oathpact keeping them bound to physical bodies. 

 

Edit: @teknopathetic we have at least one WoB that Ambition has been killed, plus a statement in AU. As such, I don't think it's likely that Ambition is pretending to be dead, but a cognitive shadow is not impossible. 

Edited January 24, 2017 by Spoolofwhool

[mattstocum]

53 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The reason being is that first, only one Herald, that we know of, is holding his Honorblade, and the others are still bound to their bodies.

Doesn't physical distance not really mean a lot in the Spiritual Realm—where I'm assuming Soul Stapling would actually occur? If a Herald were to die, and not have physical position of his/her Honorblade, would the blade still vanish? I'm assuming yes.

[Spoolofwhool]

37 minutes ago, mattstocum said:

Doesn't physical distance not really mean a lot in the Spiritual Realm—where I'm assuming Soul Stapling would actually occur? If a Herald were to die, and not have physical position of his/her Honorblade, would the blade still vanish? I'm assuming yes.

Spiritual realm doesn't really matter, but I think since you're involving a physical body, distance starts mattering. In addition, looking at the other cases of binding a shadow to a body, in both known cases, the Investiture to perform the binding is taken up by the physical body, in order to maintain I presume. Therefore, it seems more likely to me that the Honorblades are not the source of the binding, as the Investiture for the binding should be within the physical body of the Heralds.

Furthermore, I don't think the Heralds are bound to their Honorblades anymore, with the exception of Taln and Nale, and Nale's connection is mire artificial compared to what it was. Primary reason is that other people are able to bond them, and additionally they aren't exhibiting the power they allegedly had.