[AU spoilers] I'm Confused

[The One Who Connects]

20 hours ago, Caevita said:

The only part I'm wondering about is the pressure build up.  Do we have a WoB on that specifically, or could something else (say, a worldhopper coming over to Sel) have caused the quake?

We have a WoB from 2012 that says magical strain on the land was "part of it" so.. take of this how you will.

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah, it’s a complicated question because the earthquake was not caused by natural but the Reod was a natural effect of the earthquake, then... does that make sense? So the Reod is natural, a natural result of... does that make sense? That’s why it was a tricky question.

QUESTION

But the earthquake was not natural.

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, it was not.

AARON

So the Reod is a natural reaction to an unnatural occurrence.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

JOSH

And wasn’t it because there was like magical strain on the land?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That is certainly part of what was going on.

The Reod being a natural effect was explained as what would've happened by making the chasm, even if the chasm occurred naturally like they do on Earth. So that is here more or less for completionism of the WoB.

[Jofwu]

On 1/20/2017 at 0:28 AM, Gizmosowner said:

I'm pretty sure that devotion was splintered for a long time before the Reod as the Seons are supposed to be splinters of devotion...

 

On 1/20/2017 at 0:44 AM, Caevita said:

An excellent point about the Seons, actually...

You guys seem to be suggesthing that "splinters" of a Shard are related to that Shard being "splintered". Those are two totally distinct concepts, are they not? There are examples of non-splintered Shards which have splinters:

Spoiler

Endowment (Returned) is probably the most notable. I think Cultivation (spren) and Odium (unmade, voidspren) could be argued as well.

On 1/20/2017 at 1:45 AM, Caevita said:

That's what I'm saying, since all of Sel's magic is location-based, being an elantrian would be meaningless on any other planet, in any other country for that matter. 

I DO wonder however if there's some way for them to get around this problem by means of Connection. In theory, would establishing an artificial means of Connection with Arelon allow Elantrians you to use AonDor elsewhere? Secret History spoiler:

Spoiler

The "Connection device" that the Ire had comes to mind here, which gave Connection to Preservation. What if you could create something like this that gives Connection to a physical place? (i.e. Arelon) Extrapolating from what we saw in BoM, it seems plausible.

[Spoolofwhool]

2 hours ago, jofwu said:

 

You guys seem to be suggesthing that "splinters" of a Shard are related to that Shard being "splintered". Those are two totally distinct concepts, are they not? There are examples of non-splintered Shards which have splinters:

  Reveal hidden contents

Endowment (Returned) is probably the most notable. I think Cultivation (spren) and Odium (unmade, voidspren) could be argued as well.

I DO wonder however if there's some way for them to get around this problem by means of Connection. In theory, would establishing an artificial means of Connection with Arelon allow Elantrians you to use AonDor elsewhere? Secret History spoiler:

  Reveal hidden contents

The "Connection device" that the Ire had comes to mind here, which gave Connection to Preservation. What if you could create something like this that gives Connection to a physical place? (i.e. Arelon) Extrapolating from what we saw in BoM, it seems plausible.

Splintering a shard isn't necessary into order for them to develop splinters. However, in the case of Devotion and Seons, we have a WoB that they exist as a sort of investiture release valve for the build-up of power that is the Dor. Also, when Devotion was splintered, there were no seons, so they therefore came into being afterwards, and along with the other WoB I mentioned, likely as a result of the splintering.

Also, in general, a shard's power will break down if it remains without a guiding mind. As such, I think splinters will naturally form over time.

[Jofwu]

12 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Splintering a shard isn't necessary into order for them to develop splinters. However, in the case of Devotion and Seons, we have a WoB that they exist as a sort of investiture release valve for the build-up of power that is the Dor. Also, when Devotion was splintered, there were no seons, so they therefore came into being afterwards, and along with the other WoB I mentioned, likely as a result of the splintering.

Also, in general, a shard's power will break down if it remains without a guiding mind. As such, I think splinters will naturally form over time.

No, the release valve thing is Honor/spren. He specifically says Seons/Skaze aren't numerous enough to fulfill that function.

Do we know they weren't around before Devotion/Dominion were splintered? That WoB seems to suggest otherwise... though I guess it could just be a what-if type comment.

[Spoolofwhool]

50 minutes ago, jofwu said:

No, the release valve thing is Honor/spren. He specifically says Seons/Skaze aren't numerous enough to fulfill that function.

Do we know they weren't around before Devotion/Dominion were splintered? That WoB seems to suggest otherwise... though I guess it could just be a what-if type comment.

They aren't numerous enough to perform that function, but my opinion is that they were created in an effort to obtain to perform that function, only for it to fail.

There's a WoB that there were no seons on Sel when Odium was there, and I presume he didn't leave until after they were shattered. Therefore, the conclusion seems to be that they were formed after the splintering.

[The One Who Connects]

3 hours ago, jofwu said:

No, the release valve thing is Honor/spren. He specifically says Seons/Skaze aren't numerous enough to fulfill that function.

There aren't enough Seons/Skaze to perform a function that is done by Splinters... That more or less says that they are splinters in it's own right, just less of them. Also this

Quote

Are the Aons at the heart of Seons SPLINTERS of Aona?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

[Jofwu]

6 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

There aren't enough Seons/Skaze to perform a function that is done by Splinters... That more or less says that they are splinters in it's own right, just less of them. Also this

I'm not disagreeing that they are Splinters. I was critiquing the logic that Splinters are necessarily the result of a Shard being splintered.

[The One Who Connects]

Just now, jofwu said:

I'm not disagreeing that they are Splinters. I was critiquing the logic that Splinters are necessarily the result of a Shard being splintered.

I was responding more to the recent post, so I misread the did they exist before the splintering question. my bad

Endowment and Odium are both on the record as creating Splinters, and neither are currently killed off, so that should end this argument with favorable terms on your end.
Shards can create Splinters, but getting Splintered will create them.

[cometaryorbit]

The relevant Splinters of Dominion are probably (near certainly, but I can't remember if we have an outright confirmation) the Skaze, associated with Fjordell.

Edited February 11, 2017 by cometaryorbit
Dominion, not Devotion. *facepalm*

[Voidus]

On 1/29/2017 at 4:36 PM, cometaryorbit said:

The relevant Splinters of Devotion are probably (near certainly, but I can't remember if we have an outright confirmation) the Skaze, associated with Fjordell.

I believe you mean of Dominion
We have a paraphrased WoB that they are 'related to' Skai, which is very nearly but not outright confirmation still. So almost certainly but to my knowledge Brandon has never explicitly stated it.
Also I'd say that like Seons the Skaze themselves are probably not Splinters, but they have a core that is (That Dhakor equivalent of an Aon presumably)

In terms of whether an Elantrian could use their powers off world, the answer IIRC is yes but it would take some pretty significant work arounds, we do actually have a sort-of example:

(SH spoilers)

 

Spoiler

There are Elantrians hanging around in the cognitive realm near Scadrial, still seemingly in possession of their powers.

 

[Fourth of the Knight]

On 1/25/2017 at 3:11 PM, jofwu said:

I DO wonder however if there's some way for them to get around this problem by means of Connection. In theory, would establishing an artificial means of Connection with Arelon allow Elantrians you to use AonDor elsewhere? Secret History spoiler:

  Hide contents

The "Connection device" that the Ire had comes to mind here, which gave Connection to Preservation. What if you could create something like this that gives Connection to a physical place? (i.e. Arelon) Extrapolating from what we saw in BoM, it seems plausible.

Spoiler

The connection device does connect to a place, but it has to be the place you currently are. Remember, Marasi could not use it to communicate with the masked ones, they had to use, it acted as if they had grown up there and therefore spoken the language. I think that for the same reason you would be unable to use it for Elantrian magic.

Ugh, my wording in this is awful.

 

[Jofwu]

13 hours ago, Radiant of Crystallia said:

  Hide contents

The connection device does connect to a place, but it has to be the place you currently are. Remember, Marasi could not use it to communicate with the masked ones, they had to use, it acted as if they had grown up there and therefore spoken the language. I think that for the same reason you would be unable to use it for Elantrian magic.

Ugh, my wording in this is awful.

 

I don't agree that this is necessarily the case. You're referring to Feruchemy with Duralumin. It seems like a big assumption to me that ALL "Connection magic" works exactly the same way.

[thekingofpillowland]

Wasn't there a WoB saying something about Elantrians on other planets still being able to use their powers, it'd just require them to learn the features of that world's landscape and to create new Aons for it? That's something i seem to remember, but I'm probably wrong....

[Yata]

I wrote along post but when I tried to post it...it vanished 

Anyway:

@thekingofpillowland Elantrian off world could not use their powers, there are no Dor to tap there, the change Form set may work in another Selish's country (because there is Dor) but not on another planet (where there is no Dor)..Notice that if an Elantrian goes to the Rose Empire and re-learn to use AonDor with their Forms, it will still lose power as he go far drom the Empire. As far as we know, this "traduction" is the purpose of the moon's scepter but we don't know how actually work yet.

@jofwu Connection is a relevant part to access to a magic system (or mostly of them) but this don't give you a free card for everything. With the right use of Connection you may become a magic user of the X system. But this don't give you some "screw the rules" power.

So for hypotesis (because we don't know if this is possible, as Hoid showed us) you could use Connections to Arelon and you become an Elantrian (congrats!) you still need to be where the Dor is to fuel your AonDor and Elantrian Status. The Dor is in the Cognitive Realm and there the space matter, you could tap a power's source if where you are there is not. As I explained to the kthekingofpillowland, toying with Connection and Forms a Selish's magic user could tap Dor from another Selish country. But this may be performed because in that country'CR , there is The Dor too.

In SH we have no istance of explicit use of Selish's magic, all we see there may be the result of a third world's magic.

I tried to avoid Spoiler tag, but I need it now.
Mistborn SH Spoiler:

Spoiler

The IRE are Elantrian this is sure. But they never show any use of AonDor or any other Selish's Magic.
Their drink and "Connection Orb" seems to be of the same nature and one of them (I don't remember witch one) is stated to be "Silverlight's stuff" in a WoB.
They also used Fabrial Tech (to sense Shadows) therefore it high likely they use many worlds magics for their purpose.
They also need to actually build a pipe/road for the Investiture...This alone is a counter proof to their ability to tap the Dor simply with Connections and notice that we don't know where that pipe starts...it may be Sel or another Shardworld with a good amount of free Investiture.

 

[Voidus]

They'd certainly need access to Investiture, which would be new for Elantrians but not necessarily the Dor itself, Stormlight would probably do the trick,

[Yata]

17 minutes ago, Voidus said:

They'd certainly need access to Investiture, which would be new for Elantrians but not necessarily the Dor itself, Stormlight would probably do the trick,

Probably you have right (but for the specific nature of the Dor I am not so sure), the thing I want to say is that to use Selish Magic off-world it is not a simply fact of connection to Sel or change Forms (indeed your Connection to Arelon or any other area didn't change of strenght when you are there or when you are off world)

[DocHoliday]

On 1/20/2017 at 1:45 AM, Caevita said:

That's what I'm saying, since all of Sel's magic is location-based, being an elantrian would be meaningless on any other planet, in any other country for that matter.  Remember how much harder it was for the Elantrians to use their aons across the sea?  That said, him trying to mess with the cognitive realm still makes sense, I think.

 

On 1/20/2017 at 2:39 AM, MadhavDeval said:

Doesn't Khriss imply that the earthquake that caused the Reod was caused by the semi sentient splinters who personified countries?

In A.U. Khriss mentions that the landscape of Sel has "a growing self awareness" her words. This implies a certain Semi-Sentience of the planet, but not necessarily that Splinters caused the earthquake; only that Sel was aware of the shift.

My Comp-Fu is weak so I can't pull up the proper WoB, but DnD we splintered LONG before the quake that messed the Aons up.

[GoufCustom]

Well, we know for sure that the Splintering of D&D happened before the chasm happened. Because Odium took their Splintered power and shoved it into the Cognitive, and it BECAME the Dor. All Selish magic is achieved by shapes tied to location that manage to essentially tap the Dor, channeling it into a desired result. If the chasm screwed up Elantris access to the Dor, they had to have already had a fully developed system of accessing the Dor.

In the case of off-world Elantrians... I suppose I don't really have proof, just a vague recollection of a WoB. My understanding had been that Selish magic was possible to have work off-world, it was just extraordinarily difficult.

My assumption from SH had been that the IRE's fortress was powered by Elantrian magic, and the conduit leading to it was essentially a massive Investiture pipeline connecting it to Sel.

[Lightning]

What's the chance that the IRE caused the Reod?

[PennySludt]

On 1/19/2017 at 11:44 PM, Caevita said:

An excellent point about the Seons, actually.  But that leads us back to our first question... what, exactly, caused the chasm/Reod?  Apparently not Odium.

I was thinking, didn't Hrathin or Sarene or someone say that Jaddeth was God of earth and stone? And they were talking about how he can rise once everyone is converted and the Elantrians are gone. Could he have done something to cause the earthquake that distorted the pathway for the Dor?

[Felt]

On 1/20/2017 at 5:45 AM, Caevita said:

Now, I had assumed (as I assume you assumed) that Elantris' Chasm was a result of Odium splintering Devotion and Dominion.  And then Khriss dropped this line in "the Selish system:" "I am uncertain whether their (Devotion and Dominion's) power was left to ravage the world for a time... This all happened during the days of human prehistory on Sel."

 

I'm confused.

So yeah, thoughts?  Is there a WoB on this that I am ignorant of?

The chasm couldnt have been caused by Odium splintering the Shards, because the Shards where first Splintered and then the mixing of the two created the Dor, after the Dor was created the Elantrians came and after them the chasm.

The chasm was caused by a quake, what caused the quake remains to be seen... Unless someone here knows a WOB...

[Yitzi2]

On 2/16/2017 at 0:28 AM, Lightning said:

What's the chance that the IRE caused the Reod?

Very low, as its effect on them was almost certainly negative, and they were too far away for it to be plausible that they caused it unintentionally.

On 3/8/2017 at 6:02 PM, PennySludt said:

I was thinking, didn't Hrathin or Sarene or someone say that Jaddeth was God of earth and stone? And they were talking about how he can rise once everyone is converted and the Elantrians are gone. Could he have done something to cause the earthquake that distorted the pathway for the Dor?

I'm not so sure that Jaddeth even exists at the moment (not until Dominion reassembles, at least)...but it being caused by Wyrn or his agents in some way seems quite plausible.

[Lightning]

1 hour ago, Yitzi2 said:

Very low, as its effect on them was almost certainly negative, and they were too far away for it to be plausible that they caused it unintentionally.

Are you so sure?  Remember how the Ire are pumping investiture in from somewhere?  The Reod may have been an (accidental) side-effect of their meddling.

That said, you are probably right!  :-p

[bluedeath33]

Seems quite likely that Jaddeth and the land coming alive are connected in some manner, doesnt seem that far a stretch, and I'd presume thats being caused by the Dor in some way (Which was created by Odium when the he splintered the shards) that would fit the criteria of that WoB, its Odiums fault but not directly more due to his actions in the past
 

and @jofwu I'd say its probably more likely that connection based magic is going to work in a similar fashion, Sanderson has stated that theres alot of interconnectivity in how the magic functions such as how lightweaving exists in more than one system for one, or aviar that replicate the effects of Copper (Hiding them from the thing in the water) or the flashes of when your going to die remind me somewhat of Atium and some of the other temporal metals, or the fact that healing works based of perception of what the "Fully healed" you would be like, I think if we understand how a mechanic of the magic system works in one world (As far as its effect is concerned, how you access it on another planet is likely to be another matter entirely) that should carry over to repetitions of those abilities through other magic systems

 

[Saikyk]

On 1/19/2017 at 9:28 PM, Gizmosowner said:

I'm pretty sure that devotion was splintered for a long time before the Reod as the Seons are supposed to be splinters of devotion however I am unsure of what the splinters of dominion are but I'm sure I could figure it out if I re read elantris or emperors soul. Also sin elantris only takes place like 1000 years or so before storm light 1-5 shouldn't odium still be stuck in greater roshar? I'm pretty sure that the Reod was just cause by the chasm which In turn was just caused by an earthquake or maybe a elantrian was storming around with the more powerful aons but what do I know I'm a complete scrub when it comes to thinking smartly and making inferences

Actually it might have been caused by the devastation of the Dor, which perhaps damaged Arelon, and caused the chasm line