dgenio8 Posted January 16, 2017 Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 I have seen some references to this in other posts, but I have not yet found any answer or deep discussion on this... So, my main question is why/how did Taln resist in Damnation for 4500 years this time? The common answer is about his stubbornness, but I think that make no sense. Previously, ALL the heralds were in Damnation. Previously, Taln was in Damnation? Previously, the Desolations happen only hundreds of years apart. Now, when only one the heralds went to Damnation, it resisted for much longer?? Something is not quite right where... Some ideas: I have seen the suggestion that Odium plan for it. More time between Desolations mean more time for Humanity to forget how to deal with them (I don't know how to link to that post). Make sense, but then why chose a situation in which all other 9 Heralds are free?! Would it be better for Odium if all/most of them are trapped and only arrive on Roshar close to the Final Desolation? By allowing them to stay in Roshar it was possible for them to organize/teach people how to fight in the Desolation... As a side point, why the hell none of the Heralds did this?!?! I realize that they brook their oath. They might even be weaker (see Nale) because of it. But why did they completely abandon humanity? One of them at least should have kept teaching how to fight in the next desolation... Is it possible that the lie about Knights Radiant bringing Desolations was the reason for the Recreance? And it's not a complete lie and indeed the presence of many KR somehow bring the Desolations closer? Maybe this is why the gap was much larger (small number of KR in Roshar). The logic might be that KR use power from Honor/Cultivation. This weaken the grip of the prison for Odium and allow for the Desolation to happen. Maybe this was why the KR brook their oats! I saw the theory that the next Desolation starts when the FIRST Herald fail to endure the torture in Damnation (I always thought it would be when the LAST Herald fail). This would work for the time problem (Taln endure much more than any of the others). However, by rereading the prologue of TWoK this does not seem to be the believe of the Heralds. Related: - Why did KR start appearing close to a Desolation? What defines someone as potential KR and what decides whether the person will really be a KR? As conclusion, I think there might be something we are misinterpreting regarding Desolations/Oathpact/KR/Heralds. When things don't add up with Brandon, that indicates he is playing with us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eki Posted January 16, 2017 Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 I'd go for 3, but I agree there are some weird things we don't know yet. Radiants are chosen by spren. We don't know how they decide who to go for, but it seems to be different for different orders. People who have a cracked soul have the potential to become a Radiant. A cracked soul can be the result of emotional or physical trauma. Ultimately, it is the spren who decide if they will stay with the person, strengthening the bond between them. But it's also up to the Knight themselves to keep the oaths they've taken. So from what we can tell, the spren know that a Desolation is coming, and are searching out humans to bond. Basically in self defense. probably. Previously, they (at least most of them) had decided not to bond with humans anymore, because of the Recreance. Of course, we don't yet know why the Recreance happened in the first place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted January 16, 2017 Report Share Posted January 16, 2017 1. Odium's intent allows for patience, which allows for the possibility of stronger future-sight. Perhaps he saw the Heralds growing insanity, or humanity growing complacent and decided to go with it. 1a. From the prologue, quoth Jezrien, Ishar thought that as long as one of them was still bound, they could break the cycle itself. Since they had nearly all been mentally broken by the Desolations and the torture, they told humanity that they won. Secondly, Taln is the Herald of War, so it would technically be his job to teach humanity how to fight. 2. it is entirely possible that that may be the reason, but until it is confirmed, we don't know. 2a. I've seen that idea before. It makes sense, but with Honor splintered, that power isn't actively trying to hold Odium back anymore. it makes the logic turn hazy. 3. As a recurring theme in Brandon's works, what the characters think they know isn't always how it works. I am curious why you think it should be the last herald to break though. 4ish. The Spren can sense when a Desolation is close at hand, and they try to bond en masse to help defend against it. 4a. A potential KR follows a lifestyle that fits the Oaths. That attracts the proper Spren to them. Whether they will really be a Radiant and stay as one is if they say the rest of the Oaths (if they don't, the bond will fade eventually) and if they continue to live by those Oaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissy Posted January 17, 2017 Report Share Posted January 17, 2017 (edited) Well, the "True Desolation" is mentioned a lot in WoK for example. So maybe Odium has been planning for the "True" Desolation, gathering his strength? Or maybe Taln simply was such a mother-effing badass that he practically kept humanity safe for 4500 years. I can't wait to meet that guy in the books. Edited January 17, 2017 by Rob Lucci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondesu Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 On 1/16/2017 at 11:55 AM, dgenio8 said: So, my main question is why/how did Taln resist in Damnation for 4500 years this time? The common answer is about his stubbornness, but I think that make no sense. Previously, ALL the heralds were in Damnation. Previously, Taln was in Damnation? Previously, the Desolations happen only hundreds of years apart. Now, when only one the heralds went to Damnation, it resisted for much longer?? Something is not quite right where... I just wanted to respond to this part. The prevailing theory isn't that all the Heralds had to resist for a Desolation to start, but that when the first Herald broke, it allowed a Desolation to begin. If that's correct, Taln likely never broke before, but since others did, he was then sent back along with them to prepare for the Desolation. When he was the only one, he badass held out for 4500 years, and it's even possible he didn't truly break, but since the Oathpact was likely weakened (though Brandon said it's not as dead as the Heralds think), Odium may have been able to push through and start a Desolation even without Taln breaking, which might also explain his late arrival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savanorn Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 It's also worth noting that the Diagram mentions that it is very likely that indeed, there were no desolations because Taln hasn't broken. I think it's from an epigraph but it is ...and now, I'm doing this off the top of my head, but it's something like "The Ancient of Stones, upon whose will the peace and prosperity of four thousand years has depended, must finally crack" Presuming Taln is the Ancient of Stones...yeah. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 He was waiting for Half-Life 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis963 Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 7 hours ago, Savanorn said: It's also worth noting that the Diagram mentions that it is very likely that indeed, there were no desolations because Taln hasn't broken. I think it's from an epigraph but it is ...and now, I'm doing this off the top of my head, but it's something like "The Ancient of Stones, upon whose will the peace and prosperity of four thousand years has depended, must finally crack" Presuming Taln is the Ancient of Stones...yeah. "The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack; it is a wonder that upon his will rested the security and peace of the world for 4 millenia." I believe is closer to the exact wording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Yep. Chapter 83 WOR epigraph. Quote "Obviously they are fools The Desolation needs no usher It can and will sit where it wishes and the signs are obvious that the spren anticipate it doing so soon The Ancient of Stones must finally begin to crack It is a wonder that upon his will rested the prosperity and peace of a world for over four millennia" They're all on Coppermind btw http://coppermind.net/wiki/Words_of_Radiance/Epigraphs#The_Diagram On 1/17/2017 at 10:52 PM, Jondesu said: I just wanted to respond to this part. The prevailing theory isn't that all the Heralds had to resist for a Desolation to start, but that when the first Herald broke, it allowed a Desolation to begin. If that's correct, Taln likely never broke before, but since others did, he was then sent back along with them to prepare for the Desolation. But if so, having all the Heralds there actually made things worse. So why wouldn't they have taken turns all along (I know they didn't have a choice if they died, but if they didn't...) That way they'd improve things for Roshar and endure less total suffering - it seems the obvious way to do it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mist-son-Born Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 21 hours ago, Savanorn said: It's also worth noting that the Diagram mentions that it is very likely that indeed, there were no desolations because Taln hasn't broken. I think it's from an epigraph but it is ...and now, I'm doing this off the top of my head, but it's something like "The Ancient of Stones, upon whose will the peace and prosperity of four thousand years has depended, must finally crack" Presuming Taln is the Ancient of Stones...yeah. Given that Taln's name is "Stonesinew" plus the fact that he was in damnation for 4500 years it does seem likely that Taln is the Ancient of Stones, yeah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgenio8 Posted January 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 3 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: But if so, having all the Heralds there actually made things worse. So why wouldn't they have taken turns all along (I know they didn't have a choice if they died, but if they didn't...) That way they'd improve things for Roshar and endure less total suffering - it seems the obvious way to do it. Exactly... There's something weird in this... I'm getting more inclined to the hypothesis that it was Odium that decided to delay the next Desolation. Thinking about it, it makes even more sense if he shattered Honor after the Oathpact. The idea is that, because of the Oathpact, Honor got weaker and Odium shattered it. However, he was still imprison and had to endure this fight in the Desolations. So, beacause there would be no Honor to help guide mankind and give them what they need, Odium delayed the next Desolation to caught mankind off guard... Maybe the point is that people will now bind Voidspreen (Odiumspreen?). With Honor alive, he would prevent this, or at least prevent the usage of the Transportation surge from people controlled by Odium. Now, without any guidance and memory of Odium, an KR with the Transportation surge could allow Odium to affect directly other Shardworlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 4 hours ago, dgenio8 said: I'm getting more inclined to the hypothesis that it was Odium that decided to delay the next Desolation. 8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: But if so, having all the Heralds there actually made things worse. So why wouldn't they have taken turns all along (I know they didn't have a choice if they died, but if they didn't...) That way they'd improve things for Roshar and endure less total suffering - it seems the obvious way to do it. Questions 2 and 3 Quote Is a Desolation caused when a Herald breaks under torture? Brandon Sanderson This person is asking the right kinds of questions. Quote What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture. Brandon Sanderson Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end. Question Oh. So they've got a time limit. Brandon Sanderson They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again. Odium could still delay the Desolation if he has control over the torturing of the Heralds. It would be within his power to delay the next one, but not an actual defined power while on Braize. I'm using the "related, but only tangentially/indirectly" logic that Brandon seems so fond of now. As for taking turns Cometary, in the prologue, per Jezrien: Ishar thinks that they can cheat the rules and stay as long as at least one of them goes. It is entirely likely that they could have used that loophole for centuries. Odds are that they didn't because none of them had figured it was doable until then, or didn't want to risk it. They reached a point where enough of them lost hope that they decided to try it. Had they done it centuries earlier, I fully expect that they would've stayed to help mankind, but by Aharietiam, they lost the will to resist and gave up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Goradel Posted January 20, 2017 Report Share Posted January 20, 2017 (edited) Maybe the amount of effort Odium puts into destroying the world is directly proportional to the amount of effort expended to stop him. In a world where both the Heralds and Radiants have thrown in the towel Odium doesn't need a massive battle to rule. But when the knights begin to gather and Taln shows up, he begins the cycle again. The way I see it, there are more subtle ways to seize power, especially on a comere-wide level, than a massive apocalyptic battle which could very well unify everyone against you. Assuming Odium has control over when the desolations occur, why have one to destroy people who pose no threat to you? No one even knew Honor had been splintered. Because basically everyone on Roshar is ignorant of Odiums existence, of course they'd be ignorant of his end goal. Edited January 20, 2017 by Capt. Goradel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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