Chapter 86 WoR Traitor?

[PixelShard]

Sorry if I am doing something wrong, just let me know.

Has anyone given thought to who the traitor may be? I noticed the quote at the chapter beginning in 86 it reads "One is almost certainly a traitor to the others."

Could this refer to Taln? I am thinking how I would feel if I was left to uphold the responsibility of 10. Left alone to suffer and uphold the oathpact, the other quit because of its intense torture.

let me know if anyone has any thoughts.

[Spoolofwhool]

Edgedancer Spoilers

Spoiler

Speculation has come up that Ishar is a traitor to the other heralds, and has been deceiving the other herald in order to end the Oathpact and allow a Desolation to destroy Roshar. Reading the prologue of WoK, you will notice that Jezerien says that it was Ishar idea that the Oathpact could be held by only Taln to end the cycle of Desolations. In addition, Nale attributes the idea that the KRs will cause a Desolation to Ishar in Edgedancer.

 

Edited December 18, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[PixelShard]

@Spoolofwhool thanks for the reply, I haven't yet read Edgedancer. I figured it was a long shot that Taln would be a traitor. I just keep thinking what happened when he appeared at the gates to the madman in Dalinar's camp. The blade he had was replaced and he seems much different from at the gate to now.

Another question, how did Dalinar know to send Borden to Taln's location? I know there are many threads on Taln but I don't remember seeing how Dalinar knew.

[Spoolofwhool]

43 minutes ago, PixelShard said:

@Spoolofwhool thanks for the reply, I haven't yet read Edgedancer. I figured it was a long shot that Taln would be a traitor. I just keep thinking what happened when he appeared at the gates to the madman in Dalinar's camp. The blade he had was replaced and he seems much different from at the gate to now.

Another question, how did Dalinar know to send Borden to Taln's location? I know there are many threads on Taln but I don't remember seeing how Dalinar knew.

I thought it was the other way around. Borden was already there because Taln arrived at Kholinar, so he just brought Taln to the Shattered Plains.

[Patrick Star]

While (insert name of guy that Spoolofwhool mentioned) definitely has the most evidence behind him being a traitor, I'm not entirely sure if I'm on board with it because it almost seems too obvious (once you read Edgedancer).  Also, having the final nail be in a Novella rather than the main series seems a bit odd to me.

I'd hope that Brandon has a twist up his sleeve, but with such a huge series, there are definitely some plots that'll shake out to be more straightforward.

[PixelShard]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I thought it was the other way around. Borden was already there because Taln arrived at Kholinar, so he just brought Taln to the Shattered Plains.

That could be the case, not sure why I'm thinking that he was sent, I will have to look for that. Not sure why Borden would have it in his mind to bring a madman to Dalinar, Borden was even at the gate. Small thing I guess but it does intrigue me.

@Patrick Star You're probably right, might be straightforward but it does seem to be a big thing that one Herald is a traitor. I also hope there is some twist or at least more intrigue, I think of WoT and how much plot was involved around guess who was who.

 

[WeiryWriter]

I've actually always been of the opinion that it refers to one of the Unmade, not one of the Heralds (or Radiants for that matter). If you actually look at the citation for that epigraph it is "Paragraph 27 of the Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer". We have two other quotes from that section of the Diagram as well, and they are talking about the Unmade.

[Exalted]

5 minutes ago, WeiryWriter said:

I've actually always been of the opinion that it refers to one of the Unmade, not one of the Heralds (or Radiants for that matter). If you actually look at the citation for that epigraph it is "Paragraph 27 of the Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer". We have two other quotes from that section of the Diagram as well, and they are talking about the Unmade.

Hmm. I never would have made the connection, myself, but this seems like it could have some merit to it. It wouldn't be terribly surprising if one of Odium's creations were to turn against him, considering how volatile his Intent is.

[Argent]

I've been with @WeiryWriter on this one. I like the Ishar idea too, and I think the chances for two so prominent traitors are low (i.e. I think it will be one or the other, not both), but the contextual evidence for this quote points more towards an Unmade.

[Rhaegar'Elin]

I too have always thought that the epigraph refers to one of the Unmade, in particular I think that the traitor mentioned in the Diagram was the Stormfather.

If I recall correctly, Eshonai said that the Rider of the Storms wasn't one of the Parshendi's Gods (the Unmade) and that the Songs named him a "traitor".

Of course, the Parshendi could consider him a traitor for bonding humans over them but, well, that's just my crazy idea XD

[Patrick Star]

And if one of the unmade is a traitor, which one would it be?

Since the epigraph was introduced in Words of Radiance, I'd lean towards the traitorous unmade to be one that we know about already, and probably one that has been directly mentioned outside of epigraphs, just from a storytelling perspective.

Off the top of my head, that would leave Nergaoul, Moelach, Sja-Anat, and Yelig-nar as the most likely options, since we've actually seen or discussed them in some capacity in the story.

 Nergaoul doesn't make much sense, since he's been creating the thrill and driving the Alethi and Jah-Kavedians (I don't know what else to call them lol) to participate in destructive wars... unless he's trying to help Taravangian take over by destabilizing rival nations?  That's about the only way its actions could be defined as traitorous, and it's a pretty big stretch.

Moelach could be interpreted as a traitor because of the death rattles, since he's kind of giving humans information that could be valuable.  However, that seems to just be an automatic process, so it can't really be considered a sign of him betraying Odium.

Sja-anat's a longball.  It corrupts spren, and adds more to the story as a foe at this point.  Also, it worked to fight radiants in one of Dalinar's visions.

We have no idea what Yelig-nar's doing, but I'd actually put him as the most likely traitor among the unmade.  The same caveat that I mentioned about Sja-anat applies, as he slaughtered a bunch of Nohadon's men.  However, Yelig-nar has already been mentioned as one of the only unmade who is able to speak and communicate with humans, which is a GIANT red flag among the group.  Unlike the other unmade, Yelig-nar would actually be able to fully betray Odium and team up with humans.  While spren could probably communicate with another traitorous unmade, it would be easier for Yelig-nar to make his intentions clear.  Plus there's the possibility that he's been yapping at Szeth for a while, so that could turn into something.

[Jame Starmade]

I don't think it's an unmade. The paragraph we have before the traitor bit ends with a Change of topic to kingship. Could it be that it be talking about a kings advisors and how one of them is almost certainly a traitor? 

 

Edit: also the traitor bit is 12 paragraphs after he stops talking about the unmade. Kinda a long time to spend on a topic after you say it's a distraction.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Jame Starmade

[Patrick Star]

On 12/21/2016 at 8:38 PM, Jame Starmade said:

I don't think it's an unmade. The paragraph we have before the traitor bit ends with a Change of topic to kingship. Could it be that it be talking about a kings advisors and how one of them is almost certainly a traitor? 

 

Edit: also the traitor bit is 12 paragraphs after he stops talking about the unmade. Kinda a long time to spend on a topic after you say it's a distraction.

Well obviously he went back to talking about them because they're such a great distraction, and super-smart Taravangian got distracted by them.

You see, Odium is actually a Stoat, and his endgame is to act as weirdly as possible to distract the Knights Radiant.  When Odium and Honor have their champions fight, Odium's will point somewhere random and yell "Squirrel!"

[Jame Starmade]

Immediately everyone turns and barks furiously until satisfied, turning back and resuming as if nothing happened.

[Patrick Star]

14 hours ago, Jame Starmade said:

Immediately everyone turns and barks furiously until satisfied, turning back and resuming as if nothing happened.

Except they won't, because they'll be dead

 

[ram433]

I think Ishar is the more obvious choice. We have a WoB that all the Heralds are now pretty thoroughly insane in the modern era. Not too hard to think that Ishar went the sort of nihilist "let it all end" sort of insane. That said, it being one of the Unmade is a more interesting choice and feels like the sort of twist Brandon would put in. 

[PixelShard]

I have a hard time seeing this as one of the unmade (although interesting), they way I interpret them is more that they were made with a single purpose of evil. The name unmade is very interesting though and possible they were corrupted rather than created or whatever the case may be.

Why would an unmade betray the others? It doesn't seem productive, at this point, I don't feel I have seen enough to determine their goals or even if they have full autonomy.

Just thoughts, I would like to hear more of people's thoughts on the nature of the unmade

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, PixelShard said:

Why would an unmade betray the others? It doesn't seem productive, at this point, I don't feel I have seen enough to determine their goals or even if they have full autonomy.

As Splinters of Odium, the Unmade are likely a personification of some aspect of Hate. (This is very Greek/Egyptian mythos now that I think about it) Anyway: Hate (like any powerful emotion) can make you do all manner of things, some of which don't always make sense to anyone else, but you can justify it.

Perhaps one of the Unmade is personified as the aspect of Hate involved with Jealousy, and wants nothing more than to usurp Odium and be the feared villain, or some-such title.

[Patrick Star]

4 hours ago, PixelShard said:

Why would an unmade betray the others? It doesn't seem productive, at this point, I don't feel I have seen enough to determine their goals or even if they have full autonomy.

Greed betrayed Father in Fullmetal Alchemist, so it's not like personifications of emotion having deeper motivations is anything new.

[PixelShard]

4 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

As Splinters of Odium, the Unmade are likely a personification of some aspect of Hate. (This is very Greek/Egyptian mythos now that I think about it) Anyway: Hate (like any powerful emotion) can make you do all manner of things, some of which don't always make sense to anyone else, but you can justify it.

Perhaps one of the Unmade is personified as the aspect of Hate involved with Jealousy, and wants nothing more than to usurp Odium and be the feared villain, or some-such title.

 

it's a good point.

1 hour ago, Patrick Star said:

Greed betrayed Father in Fullmetal Alchemist, so it's not like personifications of emotion having deeper motivations is anything new.

No, I agree nothing new. Still, it sits weird with me that it would be an unmade, I am sure I will be proven wrong.