Fezzik Posted December 15, 2016 Posted December 15, 2016 Autonomy is not necessarily "evil" per se. The letter in Way of Kings says the author bears a grudge against Odium and Autonomy. Given that company, it is difficult to imagine Autonomy as the world's nicest shard.
Jondesu he/him Posted December 15, 2016 Posted December 15, 2016 18 minutes ago, john203 said: Autonomy is not necessarily "evil" per se. The letter in Way of Kings says the author bears a grudge against Odium and Autonomy. Given that company, it is difficult to imagine Autonomy as the world's nicest shard. Actually, to be fair, Hoid's grudge is against Rayse and Bavadin, not necessarily Odium and Autonomy. Odium just sounds like a Shard that would always be bad to have around, but Autonomy shouldn't be. Autonomy would also be a Shard unlikely to significantly warp the Vessel's mind, so Bavadin's personality is likely still intact, making it likely that Hoid doesn't necessarily have a problem with the Shard of Autonomy, but with it's Vessel only.
Fezzik Posted December 15, 2016 Posted December 15, 2016 The question I was answering talked about autonomy. I used the name of the shard, cause in math, if given a problem in meters, you don't answer in feet.
Thanatos Posted December 15, 2016 Posted December 15, 2016 BeskarKomrk True he did say that. it could be remnants of a shattered shard we know excluding Ambition. But im still thinking its Autonomy or Odium.
Fezzik Posted December 15, 2016 Posted December 15, 2016 Why exclude ambition? Shadows of Silence had been out when we got that wob, so conceivably, we knew there was some Shardic influence, we just didn't have a name.
Jondesu he/him Posted December 15, 2016 Posted December 15, 2016 2 hours ago, john203 said: The question I was answering talked about autonomy. I used the name of the shard, cause in math, if given a problem in meters, you don't answer in feet. My point is that the Letter doesn't say Odium and Autonomy. They're not the same as their Vessels, and it could be important for that question.
marsoupial they/them Posted December 15, 2016 Posted December 15, 2016 Just now, Jondesu said: My point is that the Letter doesn't say Odium and Autonomy. They're not the same as their Vessels, and it could be important for that question. Hoid and Frost presumably knew all of the Vessels personally (i.e. "Ati was once a good man and you saw what became of him") so I'm not surprised Frost called Rayse and Bavadin by name rather than their Shards.
Thanatos Posted December 16, 2016 Posted December 16, 2016 John203 I exclude Ambition as we did not know this shard at the time of the WoB
Spoolofwhool Posted December 16, 2016 Posted December 16, 2016 2 hours ago, bleeder said: Hoid and Frost presumably knew all of the Vessels personally (i.e. "Ati was once a good man and you saw what became of him") so I'm not surprised Frost called Rayse and Bavadin by name rather than their Shards. I think Jondesu's point is that Hoid's grudge was originally against Bavadin and Rayse as the people they were before becoming vessel, not the people they are now, changed by the power of the shards they hold. So the two names are not quite interchangeable in this case.
Spoolofwhool Posted December 16, 2016 Posted December 16, 2016 1 hour ago, FiveLate said: This makes me think back to that WoKs excerpt about 3 of 16 once ruled but now the broken one does....wording is not quite correct....ill try to find it. The point being....could it not be referring to the 3 shards in the Roshar system, but much farther back.....Brandon has said that there were 3 sapient races on Yolen. AND that not all shard bearers are human. Could it be that the leaders of each race were 3 of the 16 that picked up shards....and that they no longer are in power .... the broken one is....who may or not be Odium? This one? Quote "Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broken One reigns.” - Way of Kings, Chapter 11 Epigraph Fun fact. All the epigraphs are on the coppermind, so they're always available to look up. That's a thought about it. We don't actually know the race of most of the shardholders, other than Ati and Leras. Honor appeared as a human in Dalinar's vision, but that could be a shape he chose. Cultivation is presumably the same race as Honor since they were romantically involved.
Spoolofwhool Posted December 16, 2016 Posted December 16, 2016 5 minutes ago, FiveLate said: How do you you bring in a quote from Copperfield? Coppermind? I just copy-paste it.
Jondesu he/him Posted December 16, 2016 Posted December 16, 2016 6 hours ago, FiveLate said: But in the quote brackets? There's a quote button in the post editor, with ". The spoiler button (an eye) is next to it. You can also do [ quote] and [ /quote], just remove the extra space.
Spoolofwhool Posted December 16, 2016 Posted December 16, 2016 Yes, I'm just manually creating the quote space. Makes everything look neater.
Truthless he/him Posted December 19, 2016 Posted December 19, 2016 On 12/14/2016 at 11:38 PM, Thanatos said: What if Rayse dies at the end of Stormlight book 5 and Bravadin now holds Autonomy and Odium? That way the fights even. Bravadin is Brandons favorite shard. Would this be possible? My understanding is that Sazed was only able to pick up two Shards because he picked them up at the same time. This might be me speculating wildly, but existent Shards would not be able to pick up a second Shard. We know for sure Odium hasn't, but that might be because of his Intent and not an inherent restriction.
Spoolofwhool Posted December 19, 2016 Posted December 19, 2016 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Truthless said: Would this be possible? My understanding is that Sazed was only able to pick up two Shards because he picked them up at the same time. This might be me speculating wildly, but existent Shards would not be able to pick up a second Shard. We know for sure Odium hasn't, but that might be because of his Intent and not an inherent restriction. Odium hasn't picked up an additional shard because he doesn't want to be influenced by the intent of the shard, weakened his hatred. Based on that, it seems pretty clear that a shard can absorb another shard. Sazed was able to pick up both Ruin and Preservation because he had an affinity and connection to each. Edited December 19, 2016 by Spoolofwhool
Almira Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 On 12/11/2016 at 11:22 PM, jofwu said: I noticed something SUPER interesting in a SoS reread just now. Thought about making a new topic, but this one seems close enough... At the end of chapter 7, Wax goes in to interrogate Rian, the man who tried to shoot Winsting. Here's a rough quote: From here Rian goes on to point out the coin buried in his skin and so on. Now, I'm not particularly familiar with SoS. But I don't think we've ever had much reason to find this interaction very notable. But now we have this news that Autonomy (Bavadin, rather) is female. And the "she" really catches my eye, folks. I think we generally assume Wax is correct that Rian is talking about Paalm. But isn't it clear that something else is at work behind all that we've seen? Follow me. What if Trell is the "she". Rian didn't hear from a faceless immortal. He heard from God. Harmony? No, some other God. Trell. Autonomy. Bavadin. Do we have a good idea of what Autonomy's Intent looks like in practice? Because this line sounds suspicious to me: "She promised me freedom..." A "she" promising freedom, and the guy think's she's a god? We know Autonomy has left Taldain and is up to something. I'm curious if this little conversation is one that's going to have SO much more deep meaning in retrospect, after Trell is revealed. That's all. As an aside, Trell can't be multiple Shards, I think. There's a recent WoB that Harmony is the only vessel holding multiple Shards. Brandon cited Dev & Dom as the only other case where two shards are mixed. (Besides Harmony) I think this is from the recent Chicago signing. The outdoor Q&A. This could just be me missing something obvious ... but are Trell and Odium the same person/being? They seem to have the same goal.
Jofwu he/him Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Almira said: This could just be me missing something obvious ... but are Trell and Odium the same person/being? They seem to have the same goal. Unlikely. Autonomy is the leading theory right now, but nothing is confirmed. Someone else can probably give more of an explanation and cite WoB's... I forget how the argument goes. But I wouldn't really say they have much in common. There's not any indication that Trell has shown up JUST to shatter Harmony. He seems to have more complicated goals than that. The biggest connection between the two was mentions about red things (eyes, etc.), but Brandon recently said that red doesn't imply Odium. And lastly, Odium is trapped during the first Stormlight arc, which takes place just prior to Wax & Wayne. While it's possible that he will escape at the end of SA5 and then advance directly on Scadrial, I feel like that's a stretch. Autonomy, on the other hand, is known to be somewhat of an antagonist as well. Plus we know she's away from Taldain "currently", and meddling somewhere else. Throw in Bleeder's apparently Trell-supported crusade to free Scadrians from Harmony's control and it makes a lot of sense for it to be Autonomy. Edited December 20, 2016 by jofwu
marsoupial they/them Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 I had an inkling of an idea that Trell (Bavadin/Autonomy) is after Harmony because that aligns with the intent of Autonomy. Since Harmony is two Shards, Autonomy could be trying to free them.
KnightRadiant she/her Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 I just found a pretty promising WoB on the Autonomy=Trell theory. Quote INTERVIEW: Apr 24th, 2016 Brandon Sanderson Book Signing at JordanCon 8 (Paraphrased) QUESTION Has Wax seen the influence of Shard other than Preservation, Ruin and Harmony? BRANDON SANDERSON Yes. He has seen the influence of another Shard. QUESTION Might that Shard beAutonomy? BRANDON SANDERSON It might. He didn't RAFO it, so... yay?
Jondesu he/him Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 6 minutes ago, KnightRadiant said: I just found a pretty promising WoB on the Autonomy=Trell theory. He didn't RAFO it, so... yay? Problem is that was cleanly set up as being a softball question. He didn't have to RAFO it, it left him tons of wiggle room.
KnightRadiant she/her Posted December 20, 2016 Posted December 20, 2016 1 hour ago, Jondesu said: Problem is that was cleanly set up as being a softball question. He didn't have to RAFO it, it left him tons of wiggle room. Good point. Oh well, I tried.
Truthless he/him Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) On 12/19/2016 at 3:35 PM, Spoolofwhool said: Odium hasn't picked up an additional shard because he doesn't want to be influenced by the intent of the shard, weakened his hatred. Based on that, it seems pretty clear that a shard can absorb another shard. Sazed was able to pick up both Ruin and Preservation because he had an affinity and connection to each. But I don't think we have it confirmed anywhere that it's possible outside of Sazed's circumstances. I think it's possible that some (or even the majority) of Shards would be incompatible with each other. Or that, after a period of time, any Shardbearer would be too molded by its Intent to pick up another. Edited December 21, 2016 by Truthless
Spoolofwhool Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 20 minutes ago, Truthless said: But I don't think we have it confirmed anywhere that it's possible outside of Sazed's circumstances. I think it's possible that some (or even the majority) of Shards would be incompatible with each other. Or that, after a period of time, any Shardbearer would be too molded by its Intent to pick up another. Brandon has said that Odium could absorb beaten shards, just that he chooses not to. That seems fairly definitive on the matter. Quote QUESTION So Ruin and Preservation combine. When Odium slays the Shardbearers, why doesn’t he absorb the enemy Shards? BRANDON SANDERSON Because that would actually change the way he views the world. The Shard would actually start to influence him, and could actually ruin who he views himself as being. So instead of combining them all, his goal is to destroy them all and be the only one left at his power level. QUESTION So by his nature, he can't combine? BRANDON SANDERSON I mean he could, but it would change his nature. So he won't. [Source]
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) How can Bavadin be "away" from Taldain? Isnt she invested there? Edited December 21, 2016 by Chull #445
Jondesu he/him Posted December 21, 2016 Posted December 21, 2016 18 minutes ago, Chull #445 said: How can Bavadin be "away" from Taldain? Isnt she invested there? I wonder if we've been steered a bit wrong by the unusual circumstances of Scadrial (created by two Shards who are also now weakened in specific ways) and Roshar (where the Oathpact binds at least Odium, probably Honor, pre-splintering, and Cultivation to the system). Shards that simply Invest in an existing system without unusual arrangements in place are probably more free. Endowment could probably be more active in the rest of the Cosmere (and might be), and so could most of the other surviving Shards.
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