A couple of WoB about the Shattering and the ipotetical Un-Shattering of Adonalsium

[Yata he/him]

I had to study, therefore.... I was on the Brandon's Reddit.

There I found this cool questions https://www.reddit.com/r/brandonsanderson/comments/5ge20y/brandon_book_signings_dos_and_donts/daukmq5/?context=3

A couple of them are quite interesting about Adonalsium both in his past and his future:

Quote

1) Do all the original Shard holders come from the same planet? Were there world hoppers prior to the shattering?

2) Leras mentioned something like Cephandrius had the choice/chance to take up a shard but declined. So was the shattering an event that was predicted to happen so that people like Leras, Ati, Rayse, etc to be present at that time to pick up the shards after the shattering.

3) Would I be right in thinking that if someone were to be able to collect all the shards, would that person become something similar to whatever Adolansium was?

4) Is Cephandrius the real name of the character who goes by different names on different planets?

Answers:
1) RAFO (sorry.)

2) There's more to it than that, but some of what you say is close.

3) Not necessarily. The Dor as an example is illustrative.

4) No, but it's one of his earliest aliases.

EDIT:
Personal Note: I don't understand the first RAFO, He told for a while where the original vessels came from. Therefore I think he RAFOed the Worldhopper part

Edited December 6, 2016 by Yata

[Weltall]

Yeah, he's confirmed the sixteen original Vessels were all Yolenese so he was presumably RAFOing whether there were pre-Shattering worldhoppers. Other than Adonalsium, which we know about.

And Brandon confirmed that Cephandrius was one of Hoid's oldest aliases but not his real name at a signing last year, so the name we got in the Liar of Partinel sample chapters is presumably still his true name until we're given reason to believe otherwise.

Crack theory time: Hoid is actually his real name and the person named Hoid in Liar of Partinel who we assume Hoid named himself after was actually named for Hoid, who's much older even at that point in time than we were led to believe in the sample.

[Yata he/him]

5 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Crack theory time: Hoid is actually his real name and the person named Hoid in Liar of Partinel who we assume Hoid named himself after was actually named for Hoid, who's much older even at that point in time than we were led to believe in the sample.

Hoid-ception 

[Eki]

I don't really understand number three. How is the Dor similar to reassembling Adonalsium? Is it because the Dor is a mix of Devotion and Dominion? I still don't see the full connection though...

[Spoolofwhool]

4 minutes ago, Eki said:

I don't really understand number three. How is the Dor similar to reassembling Adonalsium? Is it because the Dor is a mix of Devotion and Dominion? I still don't see the full connection though...

The example is in response to the question of whether bringing shards together would have a result which approaches Adonalsium, which the example and answer are saying is not what would necessarily. Brandon is saying the Dor is not like Adonalsium. 

[Eki]

1 minute ago, Spoolofwhool said:

The example is in response to the question of whether bringing shards together would have a result which approaches Adonalsium, which the example and answer are saying is not what would necessarily. Brandon is saying the Dor is not like Adonalsium. 

Is there a reason why it should be? I haven't read AU (or Emperor's Soul) yet, so maybe there's something from there I don't know. But I thought the Dor came from the splintering of the two shards, somehow.

[Spoolofwhool]

Just now, Eki said:

Is there a reason why it should be? I haven't read AU (or Emperor's Soul) yet, so maybe there's something from there I don't know. But I thought the Dor came from the splintering of the two shards, somehow.

No. None one said it was. To reiterate, the question was basically, if you brought all 16 shards together, would you have something analogous to Adonalsium? Brandon is saying that isn't necessarily the case, and the Dor is an example of that. It was just used as an example of the fact that bringing two shards together doesn't necessarily give something that's more like adonalsium than the individual shards were before. 

[VirtuousTraveller he/him]

3 hours ago, Eki said:

Is there a reason why it should be? I haven't read AU (or Emperor's Soul) yet, so maybe there's something from there I don't know. But I thought the Dor came from the splintering of the two shards, somehow.

The Dor is an example of the combined force of two shards, not two splintered shards.  I've suggested that the Dor was the intentional fusion of two original shards of Adonalisum (Devotion and Dominion) into an entirely new thing (Unity/the Dor), which was not "putting Adonalsium back together."

I don't think you'd get Adonalsium by recombining all 16 shards - I think you'd get whatever the combiner(s) intend, for the most part (i.e. the new construct of Harmony, which was an interpretation of a Vessel who holds both Preservation and Ruin - this is a new thing, not something that specifically broke down from the original).

[Corax]

5 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

I don't think you'd get Adonalsium by recombining all 16 shards - I think you'd get whatever the combiner(s) intend, for the most part (i.e. the new construct of Harmony, which was an interpretation of a Vessel who holds both Preservation and Ruin - this is a new thing, not something that specifically broke down from the original).

And his name will be Gibletish. >.>

[Eki]

11 hours ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

The Dor is an example of the combined force of two shards, not two splintered shards.  I've suggested that the Dor was the intentional fusion of two original shards of Adonalisum (Devotion and Dominion) into an entirely new thing (Unity/the Dor), which was not "putting Adonalsium back together."

Do we know when the Dor formed? What I meant was that I think it formed as a result of the two shards mixing in the Cognitive Realm after their splintering. (But I know about your theory as well.)

15 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

No. None one said it was. To reiterate, the question was basically, if you brought all 16 shards together, would you have something analogous to Adonalsium? Brandon is saying that isn't necessarily the case, and the Dor is an example of that. It was just used as an example of the fact that bringing two shards together doesn't necessarily give something that's more like adonalsium than the individual shards were before. 

I guess I just don't see why the merging of just two shards should tell us much about what merging all sixteen shards (which is what the question was about) would do, especially considering that we don't know very much about the original shards (or even the Dor, as far as Intent and stuff goes).

[FirstSelector]

This will be somewhere in the Chicago WoB bonanza whenever it shows up, but the Dor was formed by Odium specifically to prevent someone from picking up Devotion and Dominion.  After Odium killed Aona and Skai, he stuffed their power together in the Cognitive Realm so that it wouldn't gain sentience nor would it seek out a new Vessel(s).  The resulting friction between the two Shards is what gives rise to the huge Investiture pressure and presumably is the source of the severe danger of the Selish part of Shadesmar.

 

[VirtuousTraveller he/him]

3 hours ago, Eki said:

Do we know when the Dor formed? What I meant was that I think it formed as a result of the two shards mixing in the Cognitive Realm after their splintering. (But I know about your theory as well.)

The when is the million dollar question!  Even if we learn that my theory about the intentional fusion of the door in the Cognitive Realm isn't the case, the Dor is the power of two combined/mixed shards in the Cognitive Realm.  I wonder how something becomes a reality/an ideal in the Spiritual Realm.  In other words, will Preservation and Ruin eventually become Harmony in the Spiritual Realm?

[Pagerunner he/him]

7 minutes ago, FirstSelector said:

This will be somewhere in the Chicago WoB bonanza whenever it shows up, but the Dor was formed by Odium specifically to prevent someone from picking up Devotion and Dominion.  After Odium killed Aona and Skai, he stuffed their power together in the Cognitive Realm so that it wouldn't gain sentience nor would it seek out a new Vessel(s).  The resulting friction between the two Shards is what gives rise to the huge Investiture pressure and presumably is the source of the severe danger of the Selish part of Shadesmar.

 

Yeah, we got that at the Hoboken signing, as well. It makes me wonder if he did the same thing to Ambition.

[FirstSelector]

Actually, Ambition fought back!  He was #1 on Odium's hit list, but managed to avoid getting the axe for quite some time.  The Shard's final fate isn't known, so we'll have to see if their fight resulted in Ambition's power spread all over the place or if Odium managed to lock it away too.

[Pagerunner he/him]

10 minutes ago, FirstSelector said:

Actually, Ambition fought back!  He was #1 on Odium's hit list, but managed to avoid getting the axe for quite some time.  The Shard's final fate isn't known, so we'll have to see if their fight resulted in Ambition's power spread all over the place or if Odium managed to lock it away too.

Doesn't Khriss say in AU that Ambition was finally Splintered, just not in the Threnodite system?

[FirstSelector]

Sure, and Hoid tells Frost in the first Letter that Devotion and Dominion are Splintered as well.  But so was Honor, and clearly he met a different fate than the Dor.  The point is that just knowing that Ambition was Splintered actually doesn't give us the whole story.

Also, my last post references more stuff from the Chicago after-hours QA, which will hopefully be up soon.

[Spoolofwhool]

38 minutes ago, VirtuousTraveller said:

The when is the million dollar question!  Even if we learn that my theory about the intentional fusion of the door in the Cognitive Realm isn't the case, the Dor is the power of two combined/mixed shards in the Cognitive Realm.  I wonder how something becomes a reality/an ideal in the Spiritual Realm.  In other words, will Preservation and Ruin eventually become Harmony in the Spiritual Realm?

As First Selector said, we now know that Odium stuffed Devotion and Dominion's powers into the Cognitive Realm in order to prevent their rise to sentience, so I presume that is when the Dor was created, unless they were merged and considered the Dor before that. 

[cometaryorbit]

Odium intentionally formed the Dor? That's big news (and pretty much kills my theory about the nature of Splintering and the Shattering of Adonalsium...)

[Spoolofwhool]

9 minutes ago, cometaryorbit said:

Odium intentionally formed the Dor? That's big news (and pretty much kills my theory about the nature of Splintering and the Shattering of Adonalsium...)

His intentions probably weren't for something like the Dor to produce, but his intentional actions resulted in it. Is this relating to your theory that splintering requires movement of a shard's power into the cognitive realm?

Edited December 9, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[cometaryorbit]

9 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

His intentions probably weren't for something like the Dor to produce, but his intentional actions resulted in it. Is this relating to your theory that splintering requires movement of a shard's power into the cognitive realm?

Yes, exactly. If Odium had to do something else to get their power in the cognitive realm, then that can't be the mechanism of Splintering.

Which leaves the mystery of why spren are cognitive entities. Maybe a spren isn't really a "pure" piece of Investiture but is Investiture stuck to the cognitive aspect of something? That would explain why human perception affects them...

[Yata he/him]

We recently discovered that D&D's murder is almost soon after the Shattering (relative speaking), so probably neither of the Shards were really skilled with their own powers...Rayse may have found a way to prevent an Ascension and the self-awareness of a Shard (locking D&D's power in the Cognitive) but maybe it was not a perfect plan.

I really doubt He would really predict his sealing for at least 5000 years in the Roshar's System, maybe He originally wanted to return periodically on Sel (or other place) to prevent the Splintered power from do something aganist his own agenda.

[Argent he/him]

9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

Yes, exactly. If Odium had to do something else to get their power in the cognitive realm, then that can't be the mechanism of Splintering.

Which leaves the mystery of why spren are cognitive entities. Maybe a spren isn't really a "pure" piece of Investiture but is Investiture stuck to the cognitive aspect of something? That would explain why human perception affects them...

So here's the thing. Shards are pretty much just a mind and soul, right? If they have bodies, they are hidden somewhere, there's something odd going on with them. So there are effectively two ways of "killing" a Shard - killing the mind, or killing the soul; or, in other words, killing the Vessel or killing the power.

The latter is a non-option, you can't kill investiture (I need everyone to pretend Nightblood doesn't exist here, he is weird). The Shards' powers, their investiture, resides in the Spiritual Realm, where time and space are pretty much immaterial, so you can't really disperse a Shard from its power. Even things like Splinters produced by Shards intentionally (e.g. spren) doesn't really affect them, as where the power is is not important. I say all this as an introduction to the only viable way of killing a Shard - killing its Vessel, its mind, its Cognitive Aspect. It doesn't matter (much) that the power is still there if there is no mind to direct it. And unlike the Vessel's soul, their minds can be located. And Splintered.

So in this context, it makes a certain amount of sense that spren or other Splinters are primarily cognitive beings. Plus, keep in mind that investiture, if left alone, will eventually develop sapience (if there is enough of it, at least). Which means mind. 

I am extrapolating a little bit here, but only a little bit. See this WoB for where I derive most of my information from:

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LITTLE WILSON

You mentioned that "half-ish" of the existing Shards are whole at the time of Shadows of Self. Is that counting splinters?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No. Splintered is one of the ways they are not considered whole. (He's thinking about Dominion and Devotion and says that's the opposite of whole)

LITTLE WILSON

I was thinking about shattered versus splintered, and going with shattered with Devotion and Dominion. And then splintered would be Honor separating a piece of himself to create the spren (pre-Shattering).

BRANDON SANDERSON

On Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation did the same thing. Their bodies are part of the world. Things on the spiritual realm don't matter where they are in relation to each other. All those spren are still Honor, when he was alive. Does that make sense? Yes, they're splinters of Honor, but they're still Honor. It's not like he's diminished, because his whole essence is the world. There's no diminishing that. So we're talking about the fracturing of the mind and killing of the Shard. That's the distinction between whole and not whole

 

[Khyrindor he/him]

For anyone who is interested, here's some relevant WoBs from Chicago:

Quote

 

Q: So we know that you can’t just have someone--if someone were to do something similar to Hoid, he can’t just pop and go ‘oh look, I can now do Allomancy or now do Surgebinding’. What about Breath? Could somebody give Breath--could they still get the benefits--

Brandon: Oh, good question. Yes you can, actually. Breath, once it is given to you, it is being keyed to you--your Identity. So that transfer makes it yours to use however you want.

Q: So you could Awaken?

Brandon: You could Awaken. If you were to somehow make it there, you would be able to Awaken. It’s the easiest of magics to get the magic from, and then to manipulate. Because it has keyed into it Identity.

Q: [garbled]

Brandon: Yes, you can take Breath onto another world. In fact, you’ve seen characters do this.

Q: [garbled]

Brandon: Yes, it would work the same way. The only magic that is location-dependent-- the ones who aren’t interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? You don’t need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I’ve [written] them so that each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep. So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn’t want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two Intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it’s stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they’re keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection--mostly Connection. So that means you can’t do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they’re drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they’re end-neutral, like Breath is, and don’t need any extra power.

 

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Argent: I want to take us back to some Shards before we skip me for the fourth time.

Argent: So there were a few of the Shards that Rayse Splintered, included Ambition, Dominion, and Devotion.

Brandon: Yes.

Argent: And those were all way back in history. So, we know that the Shard’s personality overrides the Vessel’s personality over time?

Brandon: Strongly influence, and depending on the Vessel, override.

Argent: So, did Rayse choose those Shards because--

Brandon: He went after Ambition first, but didn’t find Ambition until after going after Devotion and Dominion. But Ambition was number one on his hit list.

Argent: Was it because of the Shard or because of the Vessel, or the person.

Brandon: In this case it was the Shard primarily. He was afraid that this was a Shard that would rival him. But, he then got trapped in the Rosharan system.

Argent: Which is segue to Shards Investing in Shardworlds. So is it kind of a...passive...the more a Shard stays on a world, the Investiture kind of seeps…

Brandon: Yes, it does. Once you’ve got a Perpendicularity, you are starting...That’s trouble for going other places. But you’ve gotta remember, going other places means multiple things to someone actually holding a Shard. They can exist in the Spiritual Realm, where all things are one. And they can even kind of comprehend it.

Source.