Do Gem Types Matter?

[DarkJester]

Ok. I was listening to TWOK again and I got to the part where Shalan was poisoned and Jasnah asked for a garnet. I was under the impression that in order to soul cast, she just needed Storm light. If that's the case, wouldn't any gem have worked? Why then did she specifically ask for a garnet? Does this mean that gems are like metals in allomancy? Each gem has its own attribute? This may have been explained already, and I just didn't notice, but am I right?

[Nashan’Elin]

7 minutes ago, DarkJester said:

Ok. I was listening to TWOK again and I got to the part where Shalan was poisoned and Jasnah asked for a garnet. I was under the impression that in order to soul cast, she just needed Storm light. If that's the case, wouldn't any gem have worked? Why then did she specifically ask for a garnet? Does this mean that gems are like metals in allomancy? Each gem has its own attribute? This may have been explained already, and I just didn't notice, but am I right?

It may have been that she was trying to keep her Radiant Soulcasting hidden, because fabrial Soulcasters require the specific gems in order to transform something. I wouldn't expect her to prioritize her secrecy over Shallan's life, but she may have judged that there was enough time to get a garnet and still save Shallan. 

[WeiryWriter]

For most Surgebinding gem type doesn't matter, Soulcasting is the exception. It is sort of explained fairly early in WoK (when Jasnah Soulcasts the boulder for Taravangain) and the Soulcasting properties are listed in a chart in the Ars Arcana.

[Jofwu]

32 minutes ago, Ookla the Indefinite said:

For most Surgebinding gem type doesn't matter, Soulcasting is the exception. It is sort of explained fairly early in WoK (when Jasnah Soulcasts the boulder for Taravangain) and the Soulcasting properties are listed in a chart in the Ars Arcana.

I don't think we can be sure of this.

Soulcasters clearly require certain types of gems. But then that's not really a surprise because they are fancy fabrials, and fabrials always require certain gems to do certain things.

We don't have any clear evidence that the same holds true for surgebinding. There are two examples where a surgebinder intentionally makes use of a specific gem when soulcasting--both are Jasnah while she wears her soulcaster in public. To be fair, there aren't a whole lot of other cases to work with, and in most of them there are a variety of gem types at hand.

But there's one case which, I think, suggests the type doesn't matter. When Shallan first soulcasts in her room, she turns a crystal goblet into blood apparently using the stormlight from three diamond marks. There are no other gems mentioned. It's possible (maybe?) that having stormlight from a diamond allows her to change crystal into any other essence? But that doesn't fit with the two Jasnah examples, where she uses a stone of what she wants the thing to turn into-- not the other way around.

It's possible that the gem does matter, but only to a certain degree... Like they can use any stormlight, but you can't control the result unless you take it from the right source, for example. But this is really just speculation.

Seems much more likely to me that Jasnah felt the delay in getting the garnet was worth the risk. Heck, perhaps she knew there would be a suitable garnet nearby. She could always go ahead and blow her "cover" if she felt it was taking too long, or if nobody produced one quickly. Can't hurt to ask, right?

[WeiryWriter]

We do have this WoB:

Quote

StormAtlas

I finally got to ask a question about the Stormlight Archive that Windrunner17 and Chaos helped me with which was: "Why Can Kaladin Surgebind with any gem type but Jasnah and Shallan need specific types?"

Brandon Sanderson

A lot of that will be explained as the series comes along. It is really the difference between Soulcasting and the other forms of Surgebinding. It's more a quirk of Soulcasting than it is something that is different about about Kaladin. So you've kind of got it reversed a little bit though; Soulcasting has this additional restriction that the other ones don't.

As for Shallan's first Soulcasting she did have a garnet on her person at the time, in her safepouch. (it's the one Shallan mentions in her personal thoughts when she is poisoned)

[Djarskublar]

I think it has to do with the process you use. Fabrials definitely need specific gems, but Surgebinders do not... usually. I think it is a matter of if you push the Light from a specific gem, you need the right gem type. If you suck in Light from a few gems, they are no longer keyed to the gem type, and you can use the Light for any kind of Soulcasting.

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Djarskublar said:

I think it has to do with the process you use. Fabrials definitely need specific gems, but Surgebinders do not... usually. I think it is a matter of if you push the Light from a specific gem, you need the right gem type. If you suck in Light from a few gems, they are no longer keyed to the gem type, and you can use the Light for any kind of Soulcasting.

As @Ookla the Indefinite said, to Soulcast you actually need the specific kind of gem...You may also notice in the first and traumatic Shallan's Soulcast, she soulcast into blood because the polestone she had was the one compatible with blood. Or in the scenes where Jasnah soulcasts and the rightful gem was cracked

[Djarskublar]

2 hours ago, Yata said:

As @Ookla the Indefinite said, to Soulcast you actually need the specific kind of gem...You may also notice in the first and traumatic Shallan's Soulcast, she soulcast into blood because the polestone she had was the one compatible with blood. Or in the scenes where Jasnah soulcasts and the rightful gem was cracked

Yes, and in both instances they didn't breathe in the Light first. Jasnah was deliberately pushing it through the gem to conceal her Radianthood, and Shallan didn't have the knowledge to do anything else. Shallan could have accidentally consumed Light, but not in that particular instance.

[DarkJester]

So for most surges, storm light is just storm light, but this does prove that the gems do actually change the storm light within them to a degree. Basically, power is power for most surges. However the light held in a ruby would have to be different than the light in a garnet. Otherwise it wouldn't mater what you use to soulcast. 

Now... this being said, I understand that Kaladin can use any storm light, but I wander if he will find that he has an affinity to certain gems. Perhaps he may get more of a boost from sapphires than he does from emeralds. Perhaps in the right mixture, say 2/3 emerald light and 1/3 ruby light, he may gain access to a new ability he can't normally do. Just spitballing ideas. There's no proof of anything like that that I know of, but just wandering what you guys thought. Could it happen? I'm sure it's possible. Will it happen? Who knows. 

[Weltall]

1 hour ago, Djarskublar said:

Yes, and in both instances they didn't breathe in the Light first. Jasnah was deliberately pushing it through the gem to conceal her Radianthood, and Shallan didn't have the knowledge to do anything else. Shallan could have accidentally consumed Light, but not in that particular instance.

The WoB is pretty explicit on soulcasting having an additional restriction that other forms of surgebinding do not, so I don't think that breathing in the Stormlight would make a difference one way or the other. When Shallan soulcast the ship, she shattered the spheres she was getting her Stormlight from. We don't know what the gemstones were specifically but the fact that they cracked in exactly the same way that gemstones do when using a soulcaster fabrial (whether you actually need it or not) seems to confirm that yes, Radiant soulcasting has the same gemstone-based restriction as fabrial soulcasting. And Brandon didn't stick any qualifiers into his WoB and he explicitly called it out as a form of surgebinding so it's unlikely he intended for us to see a distinction between fabrial and non-fabrial soulcasting in this respect.

[Djarskublar]

6 minutes ago, Weltall said:

The WoB is pretty explicit on soulcasting having an additional restriction that other forms of surgebinding do not, so I don't think that breathing in the Stormlight would make a difference one way or the other. When Shallan soulcast the ship, she shattered the spheres she was getting her Stormlight from. We don't know what the gemstones were specifically but the fact that they cracked in exactly the same way that gemstones do when using a soulcaster fabrial (whether you actually need it or not) seems to confirm that yes, Radiant soulcasting has the same gemstone-based restriction as fabrial soulcasting. And Brandon didn't stick any qualifiers into his WoB and he explicitly called it out as a form of surgebinding so it's unlikely he intended for us to see a distinction between fabrial and non-fabrial soulcasting in this respect.

Fair enough, but the issue with that is what happens when you are in the middle of a Highstorm and get recharged like Kaladin did during his fight with Szeth? Can you not Soulcast because it didn't come from a specific gem? Does the Storm qualify as some specific type of gem, and only allow one kind of Soulcasting? Those are both frankly ridiculous conclusions. The only reasonable conclusion there is that there would be no restriction, so there should be other cases where the restriction wouldn't apply either.

On the other hand, I can see Light you get from gems still Identifying as being from that gem, at least for a time, so you can only perform certain castings, but if you hold the Light long enough, it should lose that and be usable for anything. Whether or not it will have dissipated by then is something we would just have to ask about.

Edit: also, the WoB doesn't say anything about when it applies, so we can't draw very good conclusions from it. We only know that Soulcasting has this restriction on it, but not when. It seems to be to be a lot like the metal of Allomancy. It filters the power in specific ways. On the other hand, if you are powered by the mists, it doesn't matter at all. I still hold to the idea that if you push the Light straight from the gems as a fabrial does, you have the limitation. Surgebinders are more flexible than fabrials by their very nature.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Djarskublar
last point added

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Djarskublar said:

Fair enough, but the issue with that is what happens when you are in the middle of a Highstorm and get recharged like Kaladin did during his fight with Szeth? Can you not Soulcast because it didn't come from a specific gem? Does the Storm qualify as some specific type of gem, and only allow one kind of Soulcasting? Those are both frankly ridiculous conclusions. The only reasonable conclusion there is that there would be no restriction, so there should be other cases where the restriction wouldn't apply either.

On the other hand, I can see Light you get from gems still Identifying as being from that gem, at least for a time, so you can only perform certain castings, but if you hold the Light long enough, it should lose that and be usable for anything. Whether or not it will have dissipated by then is something we would just have to ask about.

Edit: also, the WoB doesn't say anything about when it applies, so we can't draw very good conclusions from it. We only know that Soulcasting has this restriction on it, but not when. It seems to be to be a lot like the metal of Allomancy. It filters the power in specific ways. On the other hand, if you are powered by the mists, it doesn't matter at all. I still hold to the idea that if you push the Light straight from the gems as a fabrial does, you have the limitation. Surgebinders are more flexible than fabrials by their very nature.

It's possible that soulcasting in the physical realm is only possible when the stormlight is used from gems, and that the ability to soulcast whatever you want irrespective of gems requires you to venture into the cognitive realm, as we have seen. The main thought for this is that it just seems weird to me that you would be able to soulcast with stormlight both externally and internally, so I figure that it might be restriction on physical realm soulcasting in general, requiring the gems as the WoB seems to be implying.

[Djarskublar]

2 hours ago, Spoolofwhool said:

It's possible that soulcasting in the physical realm is only possible when the stormlight is used from gems, and that the ability to soulcast whatever you want irrespective of gems requires you to venture into the cognitive realm, as we have seen. The main thought for this is that it just seems weird to me that you would be able to soulcast with stormlight both externally and internally, so I figure that it might be restriction on physical realm soulcasting in general, requiring the gems as the WoB seems to be implying.

Now that is an answer I can generally accept. I would still say that being directly charged by a Highstorm would allow you to Soulcast whatever you want, but we can call that a notable exception.

This would of course mean it is almost always preferable to partially enter the CR to perform Soulcasting.

As with other non-Allomantic metals, I wonder what effect gems outside the ten essence gems we know would have.

[Spoolofwhool]

9 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Now that is an answer I can generally accept. I would still say that being directly charged by a Highstorm would allow you to Soulcast whatever you want, but we can call that a notable exception.

Maybe it would tie into your "highstorms contain a perpendicularity" theory, whereby the shear amount of investiture in a highstorm weakens the boundaries between realms enough that soulcasting without gems is possible in the physical realm, because you can easily enough of yourself into the cognitive realm to make it happen without requiring a more complete transition where you actually see the cognitive realm. 

Edgedancer things.

Spoiler

Huh, that last thought just made me wonder whether Lift would see anything weird if she saw someone soulcasting. If anyone does reply to this, make sure to keep Edgedancer information in spoilers. 

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Djarskublar]

3 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Maybe it would tie into your "highstorms contain a perpendicularity" theory, whereby the shear amount of investiture in a highstorm weakens the boundaries between realms enough that soulcasting without gems is possible in the physical realm, because you can easily enough of yourself into the cognitive realm to make it happen without requiring a more complete transition where you actually see the cognitive realm. 

Huh, that last thought just made me wonder whether Lift would see anything weird if she saw someone soulcasting.

Actually, that is Yata's theory. Mine is about how to make perpendicularities. And that last bit was something I wondered about right after I posted too. What does a random Joe see while someone is partially in the CR? I don't think we get a POV on that. What Lift would see is an interesting question as well.

[Spoolofwhool]

25 minutes ago, Djarskublar said:

Actually, that is Yata's theory. Mine is about how to make perpendicularities. And that last bit was something I wondered about right after I posted too. What does a random Joe see while someone is partially in the CR? I don't think we get a POV on that. What Lift would see is an interesting question as well.

Ah, okay. You said something about having an aligned theory when Yata posted his so I thought it was similar. I did see your topic though.

One thing I have been wondering definitely is that. When Jasnah and Shallan both slip into the CR, like when Jasnah did the night of the feast, or Shallan did her times, what would an observer have seen? Would they have just seen her standing there, or would she have actually disappearing? I suppose the closest clue we have is Jasnah's observations of her shadow slipping around. Maybe that and other signs of the CR manifest as they cross between the realms. 

[thejopen27]

On 12/5/2016 at 9:38 AM, DarkJester said:

Ok. I was listening to TWOK again and I got to the part where Shalan was poisoned and Jasnah asked for a garnet. I was under the impression that in order to soul cast, she just needed Storm light. If that's the case, wouldn't any gem have worked? Why then did she specifically ask for a garnet? Does this mean that gems are like metals in allomancy? Each gem has its own attribute? This may have been explained already, and I just didn't notice, but am I right?

It seems that Gem types matter in Fabrial magic, the magic from Cultivation, but they may not matter in Honor magic, surgebinding. So Jasnah may either be hiding her true nature, she may think it doesmatter, so it matters (Like how Szeth thinks it takes ten beats to summon his blade), or maybe with the transformation surge it does matter.

[Demiandre]

On 05/12/2016 at 11:17 PM, DarkJester said:

but this does prove that the gems do actually change the storm light within them to a degree

It's the opposite, the Stormlight is the same, but the result of the Soulcasting depend of the type of gem (like a funnel). It's like Alchemy. In each case you transmute matter into another thing, but the raw materials defines the results, not the energy source (Stormlight = Investiture).

And in a Highstorm, I suppose a Soulcaster ought to have some gems on him/her and let them infuse while they consume another. That would help with the Magic. Maybe the capacity to Soulcast improves with each Oaths, and at the fifth, some restrictions falls.

 

2 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

It seems that Gem types matter in Fabrial magic, the magic from Cultivation, but they may not matter in Honor magic, surgebinding. So Jasnah may either be hiding her true nature, she may think it doesmatter, so it matters (Like how Szeth thinks it takes ten beats to summon his blade), or maybe with the transformation surge it does matter.

According to the WoB quoted above, the third is the most likely. It is a powerful ability, no wonder it has further limitations than the other surges.

However, the Gemhearts have been said to be needful for the warcamps because of the usefulness in Soulcasting, and IIRC, it spoke about food with regards to those gemhearts. But do we have the type of gem these gemstones are ?

[thejopen27]

4 hours ago, Demiandre said:

It's the opposite, the Stormlight is the same, but the result of the Soulcasting depend of the type of gem (like a funnel). It's like Alchemy. In each case you transmute matter into another thing, but the raw materials defines the results, not the energy source (Stormlight = Investiture).

And in a Highstorm, I suppose a Soulcaster ought to have some gems on him/her and let them infuse while they consume another. That would help with the Magic. Maybe the capacity to Soulcast improves with each Oaths, and at the fifth, some restrictions falls.

 

According to the WoB quoted above, the third is the most likely. It is a powerful ability, no wonder it has further limitations than the other surges.

However, the Gemhearts have been said to be needful for the warcamps because of the usefulness in Soulcasting, and IIRC, it spoke about food with regards to those gemhearts. But do we have the type of gem these gemstones are ?

The gemhearts are said to be emerald gems. I looked at the quote and I agree, Brandon's words make the third seem correct. 

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, thejopen27 said:

The gemhearts are said to be emerald gems. I looked at the quote and I agree, Brandon's words make the third seem correct. 

Emerald makes sense since they needed the gems to soulcast food for the army. 

[Yata]

12 hours ago, Demiandre said:

However, the Gemhearts have been said to be needful for the warcamps because of the usefulness in Soulcasting, and IIRC, it spoke about food with regards to those gemhearts. But do we have the type of gem these gemstones are ?

I have an answer to this, I asked this months ago to Brandon (here the relevant topic):

Quote

Q:  Thanks for the update! In Oathbringer will we discover how the type of a Gemheart is decided ?(what Polestone you will find once the Gemheart is gathered) I have this doubt for months and probably is a relly not relevant think but I have the constant feel of "I am missing something

A: You're asking why certain species have emerald gemhearts, while others have a different type of gemstone

Q:  In the end yes. Actually, I was even unsure if a specific species had a Specific Polestone as Gemheart. In the books is never esplicity stated but (in-world) nobody ever asked what kind of Polestone is retrived after the death of a Chasmfield (as if it was obvious fact) but I had not actually confirmations until now 

A:  Note that there are some species that vary. But many do not, which is what made Chasmfiends so valuable

So a GemHeart may be every kind of Polestones, certain species of GreatShell may have a variable Polestone as Gemheart, other (as Chasmfields) have a fixed one (Emeralds)

Edited December 7, 2016 by Yata

[Jondesu]

4 hours ago, Yata said:

So a GemHeart may be every kind of Polestones, certain species of GreatShell may have a variable Polestone as Gemheart, other (as Chasmfields) have a fixed one (Emeralds)

Actually, reading over that, I interpret it a bit differently.  Many species do not vary in the type of gemstone you can get from them, but what made Chasmfiends so valuable could be the variety of gemstones that they had.  Emeralds certainly make sense for soulcasting, but it's entirely possible that not all Chasmfiends have the same type.

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Jondesu said:

Actually, reading over that, I interpret it a bit differently.  Many species do not vary in the type of gemstone you can get from them, but what made Chasmfiends so valuable could be the variety of gemstones that they had.  Emeralds certainly make sense for soulcasting, but it's entirely possible that not all Chasmfiends have the same type.

Yes we read it quite in opposite ways...Anyway I will point you to the fact that whatever a Gemheart is gathered, nobody ask what kind of polestone is (and in every explicit mention of the Chasmfield's gemhearts they are always emeralds)

[Demiandre]

 

56 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

Actually, reading over that, I interpret it a bit differently.  Many species do not vary in the type of gemstone you can get from them, but what made Chasmfiends so valuable could be the variety of gemstones that they had.  Emeralds certainly make sense for soulcasting, but it's entirely possible that not all Chasmfiends have the same type.

Well the Chasmfiends are mentioned in the same sentence with "but many do not", so logically the Chasmfiends always "carry" Emeralds Gemstones

[DarkJester]

Ok. I have another gem stone related question. I can't remember where in the first book it was but there was a part where after a soul casting, the gem cracked and it was stated that the gem would no longer hold stormlight. Does that mean the gem has been burnt out like a light bulb, because cut stones obviously hold light. It's stated they actually hold light better if they have been cut. So why does a crack in the gem really matter?