Cosmere Maps [AU Spoiliers]

[emailanimal]

On 11/28/2016 at 6:30 AM, Pagerunner said:

So, there are at least two core Shardworlds unaccounted for, and possibly as many as 5 in an extreme case (if the three worlds of the Rosharan system all count as 1, and something funky is happening with Yolen such that it doesn't count).

There are six more Shard unaccounted for and presumably still alive (or at least, not offed by Odium).  This is not inconsistent with what you are stating above, as we know that single-, double- and possibly triple-Shard Shardworlds are a thing, and also given that there may be a Shard out there (that just wants to survive) that did not Invest into a planet.

[emailanimal]

On 11/28/2016 at 9:23 AM, Pagerunner said:

Right, the terminology can be a little confusing. Brandon's '10 core Shardworlds' quote can be found here. They tell the 'overarching story of the cosmere,' and they all have 'significant Shardic influence,' although that doesn't mean they all have a Shard.

I think it is on us to distinguish two terms:

* a Cosmere world that plays a major role in the Cosmere epic

* A Cosmere world where at least one Shard chose to Invest over the course of the post-Shattering history.

Doesn't really matter which of the two definitions  "major Shardworld" stands for, as long as we all collectively agree to use it that way.

[HoidvsVoid]

Djarskublar saying that it is cognitive makes sense and actually strengthens my original premise(s). Thanks.

[emailanimal]

On 11/28/2016 at 1:59 PM, Amanuensis said:

Since I haven't seen anyone else mention it yet, the knowledge that this map is from Silverlight's perspective has convinced me that the "Restaurant at the End of the Cosmere" does not exist in the Cognitive Realm, which is interesting to me since that was a theory at some point (not sure if it's still believed or not).

Well, it has now been officially confirmed that Silverlight is in Cognitive Realm. Not my first preference, but not my place to call shots on this either (-:

[HoidvsVoid]

While i also don't like it much, it does make a looooooooooot of sense.

[Djarskublar]

59 minutes ago, HoidvsVoid said:

Djarskublar saying that it is cognitive makes sense and actually strengthens my original premise(s). Thanks.

You're welcome.

It does make a lot of sense, but it also means the map is incomplete. We knew it was incomplete either way, maybe the 'stars' that are marked are actually perpendicularities. Or maybe they are markers for places with a lot of sapient cognition ie people, not just a world inhabited by microbes.

[Full Metal Rithmatist]

In the arcanum khriss seems to imply worlds with multiple shards are not the standard. so considering 3 of the words weve seen have 2 shards i would hazard that most others only have 1

[HoidvsVoid]

Statistic-wise, since if there was one more planet, then there would be eight joint shards, which is half the original amount, it is unlikely there would be any others like them. Also planet-wise, since there are 3 of ten, it is unlikely there would be more since the term "not standard" is used.

Also, interestingly, we have exactly 8 shards on 5 major shardworlds. Half of half. (Yes we know other planets and other shards, but i am only counting those to which we know are on their original planet.

[Demiandre]

I would rather go on another explanation of Brandon's statement. Two "cities" in the cognitive realms seems redundant. And further, in the cognitive realms, distance and emptiness means nothing. So "at the end of the cosmere" would be like the world next door in the CR. So the map would also be denser I guess.

First I believe indeed that the map is not complete. If Silverlight is "at the end of the Cosmere", then like earth it lies on the outskirts of the Milky way, and then their view of their dwarf galaxy should be higher. Another explanation is that the other planets haven't been noted (either for non-disclosure or from ignorance from the author of said map) and it is a full view of the Shardic systems.

Secondly, it is a 2 dimensional representation of a 3 dimensional space. Silverlight being like Mos Eisley cantina, they would be cosmically aware and would have suited the constellation to their "belief" of the cosmology, just like we did with our constellations (who come from roman legacy I think ?). IIRC, there are other constellation systems in Asia. There might be others in other parts of the world. Meaning, this map is "imagined" by Silverlighters according to their knowledge of what is outside. For Nalthis they take a breathing person, a swordman in armor for Roshar, and so on.

 

I guess they must have some wonderful telescope and measuring instrument to get to see the changing orbit of Scadrial, or just recognizing each solar system (which would explain why it isn't complete...

[Pagerunner]

5 hours ago, Demiandre said:

I would rather go on another explanation of Brandon's statement. Two "cities" in the cognitive realms seems redundant. And further, in the cognitive realms, distance and emptiness means nothing. So "at the end of the cosmere" would be like the world next door in the CR. So the map would also be denser I guess.

First I believe indeed that the map is not complete. If Silverlight is "at the end of the Cosmere", then like earth it lies on the outskirts of the Milky way, and then their view of their dwarf galaxy should be higher. Another explanation is that the other planets haven't been noted (either for non-disclosure or from ignorance from the author of said map) and it is a full view of the Shardic systems.

Secondly, it is a 2 dimensional representation of a 3 dimensional space. Silverlight being like Mos Eisley cantina, they would be cosmically aware and would have suited the constellation to their "belief" of the cosmology, just like we did with our constellations (who come from roman legacy I think ?). IIRC, there are other constellation systems in Asia. There might be others in other parts of the world. Meaning, this map is "imagined" by Silverlighters according to their knowledge of what is outside. For Nalthis they take a breathing person, a swordman in armor for Roshar, and so on.

 

I guess they must have some wonderful telescope and measuring instrument to get to see the changing orbit of Scadrial, or just recognizing each solar system (which would explain why it isn't complete...

The Southern Hemisphere has some different constellations; we can't see through the Earth to look at them here in the Northern. Unless you mean how, in other places in the Northern Hemisphere, they take the same stars and form different shapes or stories. That wouldn't be possible across worlds, since the stars would be in a completely different arrangement from a different point of view.

Don't get too carried away with the phrase 'Restaurant at the End of the Cosmere'; AFAIK, Brandon himself has never used it. He referred to a place where worldhoppers gathered, and emphasized that it was a place, not necessarily a planet, and fans coined the term as a reference to Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. We believe this place is Silverlight, since it ties all these concepts together. But we don't have any information for where in the galaxy Silverlight is located.

One of the recent signings, we did learn that there are systems that haven't been marked on the map. No specific word on whether or not there are additional constellations, but there are more systems we haven't seen yet, so they didn't put them on the map. (Which, not gonna lie, I was really hoping to get some name-drops that way.)

[Demiandre]

Quote

The Southern Hemisphere has some different constellations; we can't see through the Earth to look at them here in the Northern. Unless you mean how, in other places in the Northern Hemisphere, they take the same stars and form different shapes or stories. That wouldn't be possible across worlds, since the stars would be in a completely different arrangement from a different point of view.

If you wait half a year, you might see some of those constellation. The earth spinning and orbiting around the sun "moves" the constellation in the sky (I know, it's the other way around). Anyway, you don't need the same stars or the same configuration and point of view, you just need to know what you are looking for and making the necessary lines to connect the wished constellation. I just meant that Silverlight created this star chart. But the constellation on each planet will be different, as you say. But two people on Silverlight could come up with different charts.

Quote

Don't get too carried away with the phrase 'Restaurant at the End of the Cosmere'; AFAIK, Brandon himself has never used it. He referred to a place where worldhoppers gathered, and emphasized that it was a place, not necessarily a planet, and fans coined the term as a reference to Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. We believe this place is Silverlight, since it ties all these concepts together. But we don't have any information for where in the galaxy Silverlight is located.

I don't necessarily see Silverlight as a far away and remote place, but definitely not someplace that is in the middle of the Cosmere. Even if it is a place and not a planet, in the Physical Realm, you can see the night sky and so project constellation. So for someone to be able to see so much Shardworlds in a glance, Silverlight should be on the outskirts of the Shardworlds. If not, the planets would be dispersed in the star chart and it would be a 360° picture.

Anyway, for me Silverlight must be on the sides and the Shardworlds toward the middle.

 

I don't know if I make sense, maybe I should make a sketch

[Pagerunner]

5 hours ago, Demiandre said:

I don't necessarily see Silverlight as a far away and remote place, but definitely not someplace that is in the middle of the Cosmere. Even if it is a place and not a planet, in the Physical Realm, you can see the night sky and so project constellation. So for someone to be able to see so much Shardworlds in a glance, Silverlight should be on the outskirts of the Shardworlds. If not, the planets would be dispersed in the star chart and it would be a 360° picture.

Anyway, for me Silverlight must be on the sides and the Shardworlds toward the middle.

 

I don't know if I make sense, maybe I should make a sketch

Yeah, I follow what you're saying. We don't know what percentage of the night sky is shown in the star chart. It might be a projection almost the whole thing - something like this starmap. From what I understand (and I'm not an astronomer, so I may be incorrect), the AU endsheet can encompass a good portion of the night sky, but not all of it based on its shape.

Silverlight being well away from the rest of the main cosmere planets is one explanation that would help interpret the star chart, true. But I don't think the star chart definitively states that.

[Djarskublar]

2 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

Yeah, I follow what you're saying. We don't know what percentage of the night sky is shown in the star chart. It might be a projection almost the whole thing - something like this starmap. From what I understand (and I'm not an astronomer, so I may be incorrect), the AU endsheet can encompass a good portion of the night sky, but not all of it based on its shape.

Silverlight being well away from the rest of the main cosmere planets is one explanation that would help interpret the star chart, true. But I don't think the star chart definitively states that.

Or I could be right, and since it is a map of the CR, a standard rectangular map shows everything just fine.

[Demiandre]

17 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

Or I could be right, and since it is a map of the CR, a standard rectangular map shows everything just fine.

I really don't think it is a map of the CR. Or it is an artistic licence in Astronomy. Here from the copperwiki :

Quote

Areas where there is a lot of thinking (cognitive function) are expanded while areas without any thought are diminished. This allows a person to enter the cognitive realm and walk from the Shadesmar representation of one planet to that of another planet in a matter of days. The empty space between the planets in the physical realm creates barely any "space" in the cognitive realm due to the lack of thinking creatures in it.

So the planets should be closer to each other. It wouldn't be equidistant, but if this map is of the CR, there are far more cognitive functions on a lot of planets.

[Djarskublar]

6 hours ago, Demiandre said:

So the planets should be closer to each other. It wouldn't be equidistant, but if this map is of the CR, there are far more cognitive functions on a lot of planets.

Well, we also know this map is incomplete, so it doesn't preclude it being a map of the CR.

[Demiandre]

Indeed it might, but I have strong feeling against it. As I mentioned, location without enough sapient thought don't have a reflection in the CR. Here we have a star map. Or unless mistaken, there is no life on the sun (Investiture doesn't count ), so normally there will be no reflection in the CR. (well, there is one described by Shallan during her trip there in WoK, but it might just be the representation of the idea of their sun that is refleted. Would that by the way make it a cognitive shadow ?) So for me it woud be more like a cluster of planetary system than a star chart.

So for me if there is a CR aspect on this map, it is stylized on a PR star chart.

 

Now that I think a little more on the Shadesmar map, I don't see how you could access any of the expanses. A planet is round, so there are no corners. If you go in any direction corresponding to the expanses, you end up in relatively the same spot (or there is a large chunk of the planet who doesn't have a reflection in the CR. Poor fishes... Does that mean that expanses are parrallel ways ?

[HoidvsVoid]

Shyamalan twist....it is the spiritual realm (what a twist). Haha.

[Jofwu]

I definitely don't think the endsheets are showing the entire night sky, for a few reasons. Something that hasn't been mentioned is that I don't think the scale would feel right. If you wrapped this around into a 360 degree view of the night sky the constellations would be totally distorted. Heck, the knight would stretch from horizon to horizon.

Artwork in Brandon's books is pretty much always in-world artwork. Presumably this isn't just a pretty picture for us, but a piece of art created by somebody in the cosmere. I like to think that this was drawn by somebody from Yolen or some other planet who is cosmere-aware.

On 12/3/2016 at 2:44 PM, Demiandre said:

Now that I think a little more on the Shadesmar map, I don't see how you could access any of the expanses. A planet is round, so there are no corners.

This has been bothering me for some time! The Cognitive Realm seems to be a flat place, so how does that work with... reality? Some Mistborn: Secret History spoilers:

Spoiler

When Kelsier goes on his journey we seem to see the same thing. He heads off into the ocean in the West, but then (from what I understand) he ends up in some place between worlds. Is it not possible to walk around the planet in the Cognitive Realm? It seems to be pretty trippy.

For places like Roshar and Scadrial it kind of works, I figure, because you've got most everybody on one part of the planet. But what about planets where the whole world is inhabited? How does Taldain work? If I'm on Dayside and I want to go to Darkside, if I head out across the ocean do I end up out in space somewhere or do I circle the planet?

My best guess is that your intent matters, but that feels pretty weak.

[Argent]

40 minutes ago, jofwu said:

My best guess is that your intent matters, but that feels pretty weak.

Honestly, no. I was going to bet on intent myself, it's kind of a big deal in the Cosmere. Either that or non-Euclidean geometry. 

[Demiandre]

Quote

Something that hasn't been mentioned is that I don't think the scale would feel right. If you wrapped this around into a 360 degree view of the night sky the constellations would be totally distorted. Heck, the knight would stretch from horizon to horizon.

Didn't I ? It was on my mind for the whole conversation, but in the end I edited my post so many times before posting that I might have ended up deleting it all :-/

1 hour ago, jofwu said:

I like to think that this was drawn by somebody from Yolen or some other planet who is cosmere-aware

Presumably, Yolen is locked, and Scadrial was formed after the Shattering. So the map would be made after the Shattering by people who can't leave the planet, no ?.

33 minutes ago, Argent said:

Honestly, no. I was going to bet on intent myself, it's kind of a big deal in the Cosmere. Either that or non-Euclidean geometry

Indeed @jofwu, Intent is a pretty valid explanation, it has been necessary throughout the Cosmere for some time, why not be applicable for something that is bound to Investiture...

I'm not really versed in non-Euclidean geometry, so I don't really grasp the possibilities. After a quick search, I understand that they "get rid" of an Euclidean postulate concerning the parallels, but how would it translate (roughly, mind you, I'm interested in physics but am not a graduate in that regard) in this case ?

[Jofwu]

I agree that intent fits conceptually. But I still have two problems with it:

1) Kelsier hardly seems to have much intent. He knows that he's looking for the Ire, so that helps... But why doesn't he get there after just a few steps? Does he have to get away from human society first, where the Cognitive Realm is less... defined? That wouldn't work in planets that are more populated. Intent very well may be involved, but there's got to be MORE than just that, I think.

2) The Shadesmar map suggests that the different expanses ARE in certain directions. So you can't just walk out into the ocean and then just "Intend" to go somewhere. You, seemingly, need to be going the right direction as well. Same here. There's got to be more than just Intent, right?

[Oversleep]

On 3.12.2016 at 8:44 PM, Demiandre said:

Or unless mistaken, there is no life on the sun (Investiture doesn't count ), so normally there will be no reflection in the CR.

Nope. It's not about having sentient life on it but having sentient life perceive it. If they think about it, it drops into Shadesmar.

If you had a planet full of humans but somehow made them not think of the planet they're on it would not appear in Cognitive Realm.

[Demiandre]

5 hours ago, jofwu said:

 

1) Kelsier hardly seems to have much intent. He knows that he's looking for the Ire, so that helps... But why doesn't he get there after just a few steps? Does he have to get away from human society first, where the Cognitive Realm is less... defined? That wouldn't work in planets that are more populated. Intent very well may be involved, but there's got to be MORE than just that, I think.

Looking for something is a purpose in itself. That should count indeed. Maybe Intent and Expectation are tied here. If you think the distance is great or that you have to walk for a while to get where or what you want, you end up "stretching" your travel time to some extend in the CR for yourself.

[HoidvsVoid]

Just an update on Sel, Argent asked Isaac about it and Isaac said,

Quote

Sel's constellation is symbolic (as is the constellation Threnody is found in). As for the lamp, notice that Sel is not exactly part of the lamp. It's part of the flame. How does Aon Dor work? An Elantrian creates an opening for it to pour through and effect the world. Think of the flame as a symbol for the Dor. Does that make sense

That is pretty much what I was saying that it signified. Let us figure out the rest!!!

PS. Thank Argent

[Zmann966]

The "Flat Shadesmar" vs "Round Planets" was touched upon during the Outside Q&A at the Chicago signing last night, pending a transcription, its in there somewhere: