"Broken" vessels

[manukos]

Soooooooo while i was re-re-reading SA i remembered something about the radiants all being "broken" as people ,
meaning that if someone has had hardships in their past and kept on living they are  more suitable to become radiants,(propably because  the first three ideals mean so much more to them)

BUT we've all been lied to , they took us for fools I SAY !!! (too dramatic? ... yeah propably )

well as i was reading this masterpiece something dawned on me , no they are not !  most of our characters have lived adequetly good lives up until the spren showed up 

Lets take them one at a time starting with the easier one :Shallan Davar , now u might say , hey she hasd the whorst life imaginable her mother tried to kill her dying by shallan's hand in the process her father covered it up to protect her but it ende up turning him into a violent monster that treated her brothers horribly, and you would be right if it wasn't for the little fact that it was patern's apearance the trigger that started this domino effect if he hadn't come her mother wouldn't have a reason to kill her and the whole crisis would have been averted .
She even blames him directly for her life at the end of book two ... umm spoilers i guess?

next we heve stormblessed him self :Kaladin he describes being great with the spear from the first time he picked up one ,which would predate tien's death.
apart from that he lived a happy life . Yes he didnt have any friends apart from Laral who became a stuck up b...bad person and got bulied by the citylord for two years  it is exteemly mild as far as disasters go 

Renarin Kholin 
we dont know much about his life the only tragic thing  that we know is the death of his mother and maaaaybe not being able to live up to his father's (initial)expectations due to his blood weakness . but those dont seem good enough reasons to break a person considering that he is a prince and... well he is a prince! plus his father loves him and his brother adores him , it seems to me like a relatively good life 

as for Jasnah Kholin from her hatred of the thiefs and killers that she soulcasted we can assume the same thing that Shalan observed that something was done to her but apart from that she had her spren before her father's assasination and she is a very stoic person to think that she would let any tragedy scar her as much but at least i can see it as possible 

Same goes for Dalinar he forgot his wife so ... no scaring from there and he is a warrior , he has definately lost many allies to think that even his brother's death would fase him so

i am not mentioning lift cause she definately had some crazy bad  things happen to her , for her to be the way she is

so what if the spren are not looking broken people only resilient ones and the breake them either as a test of strength or to fit the requirements of being broken(which might sound like the same thing but it isn't . since it means that spren aren't all that "good " but would ruin lifes to form people into soldiers against odium . where you could say that this is ultimately good since they strive for the survival of roshar  , but that would make them kinda like Taravangian and that would make a boring class of ideologies )

i dont mean to undermine their traumas i am just saying that if you are serching for tragedies in roshar ,  Teft and  Wikim Davar seem like far better cadidates
 

Spoiler

Teft in particular had his mother tell him that she would commit suiside and then betrayed everyone he knew  and basicaly had them executed and as he said he betrayed people at least twice since then 

 

any way my head is muddled and my eyes droppy so i rest my case , what do you think ?

NOTE: in the case that this has been discussed before (which it most definately has ) plz send me the link cause i couldnt find anything

 

[Pagerunner]

So, the explanation I've heard for 'brokenness' in terms of Radiants is more along the lines of mental illness; Kaladin has depression, Renarin is on the autism spectrum, Dalinar is an alcoholic, things like that. I haven't paid a ton of attention to that facet, so I won't try and diagnose the remaining Radiants right here, but I think that's more of the mechanism, not just bad experiences that they've managed to overcome.

[Argent]

The "brokenness" is only one of the requirements for attracting a spren - following the ways of the Orders is at least as important. 

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

So, the explanation I've heard for 'brokenness' in terms of Radiants is more along the lines of mental illness

I would definitely not say that. To imply that all Radiants were neuroatypical sounds... well, insane to me. It also feels vaguely insulting in a world where mental illness is not the source of the magic. And even if that were that case, Dalinar doesn't show signs of alcoholism - he got drunk (like many young men do), just at a very bad time. Not to mention that his bond with the Stormfather doesn't start until very recently, certainly way past his Blackthorn phase. 

And what about all the other proto-Radiants? Neither Ym nor Shallan show signs of mental illness, and what we've seen from Lift doesn't suggest one either - her strange behavior seems more a result of her visit to the Nightwatcher than anything else. 

No, all of this feels wrong. I don't see a good reason to deviate from the explanation we've been given so far - that the prerequisites for Radianthood are a cracked Spiritweb (which in all likelihood does not require a lifetime of misery) and adherence to the Immortal Words.

[tobar14]

I have always been confused about Shallan. From what I understand, she started lightweaving and hangin out with Pattern before her mother tried to kill her. Before her mother tried to kill her, her dad was normal, and it was described that she had a happy life. Multiple times pattern said that he was attracted to her lies, but he was already there before she started lying to herself about her mom. So yeah, I'm lost on that one.

[A Secret Corner]

3 hours ago, harambe said:

Soooooooo while i was re-re-reading SA i remembered something about the radiants all being "broken" as people ,
meaning that if someone has had hardships in their past and kept on living they are  more suitable to become radiants,(propably because  the first three ideals mean so much more to them)

BUT we've all been lied to , they took us for fools I SAY !!! (too dramatic? ... yeah propably )

well as i was reading this masterpiece something dawned on me , no they are not !  most of our characters have lived adequetly good lives up until the spren showed up 

Lets take them one at a time starting with the easier one :Shallan Davar , now u might say , hey she hasd the whorst life imaginable her mother tried to kill her dying by shallan's hand in the process her father covered it up to protect her but it ende up turning him into a violent monster that treated her brothers horribly, and you would be right if it wasn't for the little fact that it was patern's apearance the trigger that started this domino effect if he hadn't come her mother wouldn't have a reason to kill her and the whole crisis would have been averted .
She even blames him directly for her life at the end of book two ... umm spoilers i guess?

next we heve stormblessed him self :Kaladin he describes being great with the spear from the first time he picked up one ,which would predate tien's death.
apart from that he lived a happy life . Yes he didnt have any friends apart from Laral who became a stuck up b...bad person and got bulied by the citylord for two years  it is exteemly mild as far as disasters go 

Renarin Kholin 
we dont know much about his life the only tragic thing  that we know is the death of his mother and maaaaybe not being able to live up to his father's (initial)expectations due to his blood weakness . but those dont seem good enough reasons to break a person considering that he is a prince and... well he is a prince! plus his father loves him and his brother adores him , it seems to me like a relatively good life 

as for Jasnah Kholin from her hatred of the thiefs and killers that she soulcasted we can assume the same thing that Shalan observed that something was done to her but apart from that she had her spren before her father's assasination and she is a very stoic person to think that she would let any tragedy scar her as much but at least i can see it as possible 

Same goes for Dalinar he forgot his wife so ... no scaring from there and he is a warrior , he has definately lost many allies to think that even his brother's death would fase him so

i am not mentioning lift cause she definately had some crazy bad  things happen to her , for her to be the way she is

so what if the spren are not looking broken people only resilient ones and the breake them either as a test of strength or to fit the requirements of being broken(which might sound like the same thing but it isn't . since it means that spren aren't all that "good " but would ruin lifes to form people into soldiers against odium . where you could say that this is ultimately good since they strive for the survival of roshar  , but that would make them kinda like Taravangian and that would make a boring class of ideologies )

i dont mean to undermine their traumas i am just saying that if you are serching for tragedies in roshar ,  Teft and  Wikim Davar seem like far better cadidates
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Teft in particular had his mother tell him that she would commit suiside and then betrayed everyone he knew  and basicaly had them executed and as he said he betrayed people at least twice since then 

 

any way my head is muddled and my eyes droppy so i rest my case , what do you think ?

NOTE: in the case that this has been discussed before (which it most definately has ) plz send me the link cause i couldnt find anything

 

Again as has been mentioned by Argent, the two prerequisites to become a Radiant is a broken Spriritweb and adherence to the ideals. Kaladin was broken by the harsh treatment of his family, the death of Tien, and the death of some of his friends, and the execution of those of his friends then surviving by one he revered and trusted. He followed the ideals by trying to protect his squad and the young soldiers that reminded him of Tien. After his betrayal by Amaram, he then tried to protect Bridge 4. To become a Radiant, these two categories of events had to happen in Kaladin's life. As a side note, its not so much having much hardship in one's life as being broken (in your Spriritweb) that is one of the prerequisites

Edited November 8, 2016 by Secrets

[Pagerunner]

53 minutes ago, Argent said:

The "brokenness" is only one of the requirements for attracting a spren - following the ways of the Orders is at least as important. 

I would definitely not say that. To imply that all Radiants were neuroatypical sounds... well, insane to me. It also feels vaguely insulting in a world where mental illness is not the source of the magic. And even if that were that case, Dalinar doesn't show signs of alcoholism - he got drunk (like many young men do), just at a very bad time. Not to mention that his bond with the Stormfather doesn't start until very recently, certainly way past his Blackthorn phase. 

And what about all the other proto-Radiants? Neither Ym nor Shallan show signs of mental illness, and what we've seen from Lift doesn't suggest one either - her strange behavior seems more a result of her visit to the Nightwatcher than anything else. 

No, all of this feels wrong. I don't see a good reason to deviate from the explanation we've been given so far - that the prerequisites for Radianthood are a cracked Spiritweb (which in all likelihood does not require a lifetime of misery) and adherence to the Immortal Words.

I know this is a sensitive subject, and I'm not terribly well-versed in either the cosmere implications or the real-life terminology (I didn't come up with this theory, and I'll try and track down later where I first saw it), but I'll try and tactfully give this a crack.

• Alcoholism can cause permanent physiological effects to an individual, such that people will call themselves "recovering alcoholics" 20 years after they've taken their last drink, because if they start drinking again they will be right back to where they were when they quit. Dalinar's cracks in his spirit could have been opened and widened up until Gavilar's death. Even though he has stopped drinking, the cracks are still there, just under no pressure to widen. That's where the Stormfather can latch on to.
• I think they diagnosed Shallan with PTSD. Not sure how the timeline worked out; it's been a while since I've read WoR, and Shallan hasn't ever been my favorite character to begin with, but I think they said it started from abuse, not from the death of her mother, since she already had a bond by then.
• We haven't gotten the in-depth looks at Ym or Lift that we have for the other Radiants we've seen. I don't recall any proposals about them or their diagnoses, but the cracks in the spirit web aren't the singular defining trait of the characters. I agree that the Divine Attributes are what attract a spren, but I'm suggesting that cracks in the Spiritweb come from the conditions they are experiencing, which allows the bond to form. Kaladin isn't primarily defined by his depression, he's defined by being a leader and a protector. Same way for other Radiants or potential Radiants - whatever is causing the cracks, it doesn't need to be at the forefront of their personalities, it just needs to give a spren somewhere to latch on to.
• Ashyn, another world in the system, has physical illnesses granting powers. The sicker you are, the stronger the powers. Similar concept - the more broken an individual is, the more cracks there are in the spiritweb, and the stronger the spren bond can be to the individual. Those with more severe issues, like Kaladin and Renarin, can become stronger Radiants. He's spoken elsewhere about the traditional views of normal/abnormal, and how he's trying to present a spectrum of characters when it comes to neurotypes, without necessarily explicitly defining the characters in the text as "So-and-so has XYZ." This would be a behind-the-scenes integration.
• Mental illness is a theme of the Stormlight Archive. Brandon's original proposal for the Oathshards says the series centers on ten angelic beings, each driven insane in a different way. I think it fits thematically for the main characters to be experiencing various forms of neuroatypical conditions. Specifically for Renarin and Kaladin, I've heard a lot of love from the fans for their portrayals, so I think Brandon can do this in a way that isn't insulting or demeaning to those in real life.

It's a nuanced subject, one I personally don't have experience with, and something that Brandon has done a lot of research on, so I hope I was able to do this view justice. Again, I'll try and track down where I originally saw it - I'm sure it was phrased much more eloquently there.

EDIT: Here's the original theory. It proposes that Shallan struggles with dissociation, Lift has ADHD, and that YM was another example of addiction. The thread gets derailed pretty quick about Adolin, but there's some interesting conversation in there.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Pagerunner

[manukos]

let's see....it is not that i dissagree with the mental problem theory (which i do) but i wanted to touch on an other point . The fact that before the spren came they were "ok"

3 hours ago, Argent said:

 Neither Ym nor Shallan show signs of mental illness, and what we've seen from Lift doesn't suggest one either - her strange behavior seems more a result of her visit to the Nightwatcher than anything else. 

No, all of this feels wrong. I don't see a good reason to deviate from the explanation we've been given so far - that the prerequisites for Radianthood are a cracked Spiritweb (which in all likelihood does not require a lifetime of misery) and adherence to the Immortal Words.

first of all Shallan has definately PTSD its as clear as day
and the nightwhatcher only made her body able to convert food into stormlight 

as for why the current explanation does not stand , it is because most if not all of the tragic things happen after the spren arived  .as for an example again , @Secrets as much as i hate to dissagree with a fellow "baker" tien's death and the murder of kaladin's friends all happened After syl found Kal since it was their bond that gave him the amount of skill with the spear that he had and as we know he was amazing from the first time he picked up the weapon so it's safe to assume tha their initial bond happened at or before kaladin's arival to the army , and i dont think that his life was so harsh till then especialy since as he says they were "winning" at the end

[Argent]

13 minutes ago, harambe said:

first of all Shallan has definately PTSD its as clear as day

She does now. She didn't when she first started bonding with Pattern.

14 minutes ago, harambe said:

After syl found Kal since it was their bond that gave him the amount of skill with the spear that he had and as we know he was amazing from the first time he picked up the weapon so it's safe to assume tha their initial bond happened at or before kaladin's arival to the army

No, I don't think that's safe to assume this. Both of them report seeing each other first in the army. I don't see a good reason to discard literally 100% of the evidence we have and assume their bond started forming in Hearthstone. 

[manukos]

20 minutes ago, Argent said:

She does now. She didn't when she first started bonding with Pattern.

No, I don't think that's safe to assume this. Both of them report seeing each other first in the army. I don't see a good reason to discard literally 100% of the evidence we have and assume their bond started forming in Hearthstone. 

for the first thing i wholeheartedly agree . that is what i am saying  that the sprens arrivals predate their mental scaring 

as for the second one three things 
a )i am not saying necessarily back at hearthstone(tho the forth ideal would explain why he volonteared at the army , to protect those who cant protect themselfs) but it would make sense at his arival at the army but before his brother was killed since by then there had already been some battles 
b ) syl's mind wasnt at her strongest in the begining so she could be loosly following him around before and the first recolection that she has is in the army also Kaladin wouldnt had noticed her as she was acting like a normal windspren  
c )also what other evidence is there considering ?

[soyperson]

What if, to become a Radiant, you must undergo extreme Spiritual stress, much like an Allomancer's Snapping? 

And perhaps, the raw, carnal strength of those emotions draw your spren?

Edited November 8, 2016 by bleeder

[Argent]

3 minutes ago, harambe said:

c )also what other evidence is there considering ?

The fact that the only concrete knowledge we have of their bond forming comes from their words, and both of them report this happening in the army. This may be tenuous, but also consider that Syl almost definitely makes herself known to Kaladin no later than the day he kills the Veden Shardbearer (we know this because in his flashback chapter from the same day there is a windspren - very likely Syl - playing tricks on him), and likely not much earlier as he doesn't consider her pestering him as odd. At this point Tien had been dead for... I don't remember exactly, but over a year. Year and a half I think. If Syl had been playing tricks on him this entire time, he definitely would've remarked on it when she does it again in this last flashback chapter. So her interaction with him must be a recent thing as of that time.

Furthermore, consider how quickly Syl matured after that. Several months of imprisonment, and another several in Sadeas' bridge crews, and Syl becomes almost human in her personality. It's possible that she had been aware of Kaladin for a long time, but I can't imagine them having a bond, even a weak one, for years prior to his arrival on the Shattered Plains.

[manukos]

@Argentyeeeeah but we still have to take into account tha fact that he was unreasonably good with the spear since the first time he held it and we know that the skill is a result of their bond as syl has said , but you do make some strong points , maybe she was more like a wind spren so she wasn't drawn particulary to him... (kind of a strech ?) i'll have to think on it some more 

also 

 

39 minutes ago, bleeder said:

What if, to become a Radiant, you must undergo extreme Spiritual stress, much like an Allomancer's Snapping? 

And perhaps, the raw, carnal strength of those emotions draw your spren?

I mentioned the first part about extreem stress in my theory even though snapping had't crossed my mind , but u bring an interesting dimension what if the type  of mental  damage or the way that you deal with it determines your surge  instead of your personality , and personality traits like stonewords being stuborn etc. is just a byproduct of their scaring 

but that still doesnt answer why patern went to shallan when she was perfectly happy and ruined her life

[maxal]

4 hours ago, harambe said:

but that still doesnt answer why patern went to shallan when she was perfectly happy and ruined her life

What makes you think Shallan's life was happy and uneventful prior to Pattern's arrival? Because she made one drawing of her family, happy, thinking this is how they should have been?

What is Shallan's greatest ability?

Her ability to craft powerful lies and those lies were so perfect, so strong, they attracted a Cryptic. Even as a child, Shallan's ability to imagine better truths and to make them come to life surpasses the one of older individuals or perhaps it is you need to the naivety of a child to actually believe drawings are enough to change the world/people.

All this to say, there are indications Shallan's perception of her childhood having been happy up until she killed her mother was the lie which attracted Pattern. 

We must not allow ourselves to be fooled. One does not become a Radiant without having enough scratch and what might scratch a given individual may not impact another. The best example would be the Kholins... 

For the rest, I don't buy the theory you need to be neuroatypical to become a Radiant. I find it restrictive to think the only worthy individuals within the world are those "lucky" enough to have been born with a predilection for a disability. I personally feel the "cracks within the soul" serve a double purpose: they are the emptiness required for the Nahel bond to take place and the allow the spren to have so measure of the proto-knight worth prior to bonding him/her as what are convictions without trials?

 

[manukos]

5 hours ago, maxal said:

What makes you think Shallan's life was happy and uneventful prior to Pattern's arrival? Because she made one drawing of her family, happy, thinking this is how they should have been?

What is Shallan's greatest ability?

Her ability to craft powerful lies and those lies were so perfect, so strong, they attracted a Cryptic. Even as a child, Shallan's ability to imagine better truths and to make them come to life surpasses the one of older individuals or perhaps it is you need to the naivety of a child to actually believe drawings are enough to change the world/people.

All this to say, there are indications Shallan's perception of her childhood having been happy up until she killed her mother was the lie which attracted Pattern. 

We must not allow ourselves to be fooled. One does not become a Radiant without having enough scratch and what might scratch a given individual may not impact another. The best example would be the Kholins... 

For the rest, I don't buy the theory you need to be neuroatypical to become a Radiant. I find it restrictive to think the only worthy individuals within the world are those "lucky" enough to have been born with a predilection for a disability. I personally feel the "cracks within the soul" serve a double purpose: they are the emptiness required for the Nahel bond to take place and the allow the spren to have so measure of the proto-knight worth prior to bonding him/her as what are convictions without trials?

 

well Shallan's brother mentioned that their father got his themper after "that night"

as for neurotypical theory ,i kinda agree with you 

[Shardmonk]

21 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

So, the explanation I've heard for 'brokenness' in terms of Radiants is more along the lines of mental illness; Kaladin has depression, Renarin is on the autism spectrum, Dalinar is an alcoholic, things like that. I haven't paid a ton of attention to that facet, so I won't try and diagnose the remaining Radiants right here, but I think that's more of the mechanism, not just bad experiences that they've managed to overcome.

Sorry to backtrack, but do we have confirmation that Remain is on the autistic spectrum? That would explain some things.

[Pagerunner]

1 hour ago, Shardmonk said:

Sorry to backtrack, but do we have confirmation that Remain is on the autistic spectrum? That would explain some things.

Here you go.

[Shardmonk]

3 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

Here you go.

Ah. Thank you. 

[Dahak]

I thought this issue was a soulweb crack thing like allomantic Snapping and ferruchemy's equivalent. So both neuroatypicality or traumatic life incidents.

[dvoraen]

On 11/8/2016 at 7:46 AM, tobar14 said:

I have always been confused about Shallan. From what I understand, she started lightweaving and hangin out with Pattern before her mother tried to kill her. Before her mother tried to kill her, her dad was normal, and it was described that she had a happy life. Multiple times pattern said that he was attracted to her lies, but he was already there before she started lying to herself about her mom. So yeah, I'm lost on that one.

This is why I claim there's something else that was going on back when Shallan was still ten.  I think she happened across one of Mother's dealings, something she eventually repressed, which is what led to Pattern choosing her.

[Massik]

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but isn't "broken-ness" a general pre-requisite for investiture in the Cosmere as a whole?

[Eki]

1 hour ago, Massik said:

Sorry if this has been mentioned, but isn't "broken-ness" a general pre-requisite for investiture in the Cosmere as a whole?

Often, but maybe not always. For some magic systems, you seem to need "cracks" in your soul that the Investiture can seep into, in a way. But it's unclear what these cracks can be. Traumatic experiences and emotional distress certainly, and physical violence possibly (though physical violence often leads to emotional scars as well).

But (Cosmere spoilers)

Spoiler

using Aons doesn't seem to require cracks, unless the Shaod creates (or requires) cracks somehow (which is quite possibly true, actually, but I haven't seen anything about it). Awakening doesn't either, unless the smaller "base" soul of a Nalthian is "cracked" by default. You could argue that those magic systems are different, somehow, but...

 

[Savanorn]

I think that becomming a Radiant definitely requires a cracked spiritweb, which occurs as a result of hardship. 

However, I don't think that same cracked spiritweb always is associated with what we'd call mental illness or a neuro atypical nature. It can be, but mental illnesses and neuroatypicality are both smaller subsets of a wider whole. 

Likewise I could imagine there'd be people who had mental illnesses, or were NA, and who didn't have broken spiritwebs. 

Finally there'd be, probably, people who were neurotypical and mental illness free but who had experienced enough suffering that they were broken enough for the spren to bond. 

[dionysus]

I agree that we have enough evidence, both in book and WoB, that the spren bond needs both a broken spiritweb and a pre-existing dedication to at least the primary trait of the order. But what breaks a spiritweb could be almost anything. What is traumatic to one individual will not be to another. We don't know enough about Shallan's past to conclude there was no cracked spiritweb before the events with her mother.

As an aside, my memory is hazy about Kaladin's father and specific instances, but he always struck me as a good person but a terrible father and on of the reasons Kaladin is broken.

[maxal]

8 hours ago, dionysus said:

I agree that we have enough evidence, both in book and WoB, that the spren bond needs both a broken spiritweb and a pre-existing dedication to at least the primary trait of the order. But what breaks a spiritweb could be almost anything. What is traumatic to one individual will not be to another. We don't know enough about Shallan's past to conclude there was no cracked spiritweb before the events with her mother.

As an aside, my memory is hazy about Kaladin's father and specific instances, but he always struck me as a good person but a terrible father and on of the reasons Kaladin is broken.

I like this post. I too have had thoughts about Lirin perhaps being a great surgeon, but not such a great father... It always seemed to me as if he invested all his energies into promoting his eldest son while forgetting about his youngest... Everything was done and made for Kaladin, nothing for Tien.

[Savanorn]

6 hours ago, maxal said:

I like this post. I too have had thoughts about Lirin perhaps being a great surgeon, but not such a great father... It always seemed to me as if he invested all his energies into promoting his eldest son while forgetting about his youngest... Everything was done and made for Kaladin, nothing for Tien.

True. But I think in many ways this is because more than anything Lirin identified as a surgeon and Tien couldn't follow this path while Kaladin could have been great. 

Remember Lirin's life philosophy is pretty much built around saving people and Tien couldn't do that.