The Art of Game Creation

[Experience he/him]

Thank you for the feedback Elberth. I see what your saying about the confirmed good. I am totally open to changing roles to make things balanced. I'm thinking of just going to make the spy and healer possible for either allignment. I'm not sure what to do with the kill role though, because I would like there to be something like that for the town.

Ok, I just would really like to have the Nightmaws incorporated somehow, still trying to figure that out. If I change it so that it's not random then I will also need to change the Hidden aviar power.

Yes, you are told what you experience is at the beginning of the game.

[Elandera she/her]

Super excited for a First of the Sun game.

9 hours ago, EXPERIENCE said:

Healer: Your Aviar gives you the knowledge to heal all but the most deadly of wounds. (each night you can protect one person from death. You cannot protect yourself two nights in a row. If someone is attacked by a Nightmaw, then your protection fails.)

I agree with El on this one. Especially if you're including a village kill role, this should be a neutral role.

On the note of the Killer, I like that it activates a trap, since it's a bit of a deterrent for wanton killing just because they can.

9 hours ago, EXPERIENCE said:

Spy: Your Aviar gifts you with stealthiness letting you spy on the other Trappers. (Each night, you can check one person's alignment)[Activates Traps]

While it's great this also activates a trap, I'm not so sure about it checking alignment. Alignment scans can be tricky in balancing a game, as it gives decided advantage if that person can stay alive. If you made this an action scan, you could also make the spy a neutral role fairly easily. Though that would be similar to the Aviar Spy... except it would show anyone who didn't take an action (passive Aviar) or took an action that didn't count as an Aviar (elim kill). You'd also need to decide if the Killer, Aviar Killer, and Elim Kill would all scan the same or differently (my vote is the same, as it helps obscure both the good and bad killers).

14 minutes ago, EXPERIENCE said:

Ok, I just would really like to have the Nightmaws incorporated somehow, still trying to figure that out. If I change it so that it's not random then I will also need to change the Hidden aviar power.

I wouldn't necessarily say the Nightmaw is a bad thing, but El is right. The only thing interacting with it currently is the Hidden Aviar, which seems to be a passive ability. Maybe you could link it with the traps somehow. Like, if they activate a trap and survive, they have a -% chance of attracting the Nightmaw the following cycle unless they have the Hidden Aviar? Hmm. That would only work if someone could end up with more than one Aviar, though. I'll keep thinking on this.

Does the elim kill trigger traps?

[Elbereth she/her]

30 minutes ago, EXPERIENCE said:

Thank you for the feedback Elberth. I see what your saying about the confirmed good. I am totally open to changing roles to make things balanced. I'm thinking of just going to make the spy and healer possible for either allignment. I'm not sure what to do with the kill role though, because I would like there to be something like that for the town.

Ok, I just would really like to have the Nightmaws incorporated somehow, still trying to figure that out. If I change it so that it's not random then I will also need to change the Hidden aviar power.

Yes, you are told what you experience is at the beginning of the game.

I think making the spy and healer possible for either alignment would be an excellent idea. If you want to make the killer confirmed good, that's your choice as the GM and minor enough that I won't contest it. (I will grumble, but that's because I have a longstanding grudge against confirmed good roles. It's even in my sig.) 

I mean, the Hidden role could still work. Essentially as it stands, the Nightmaw is an unblockable kill that the healer can't help with - only the Hidden role can avoid it. You could make it a one-time kill: once during the game, the traitors release a Nightmaw at their preferred target. This is a solution to, for instance, wanting to kill a player who's highly likely to be protected because they're extremely trusted. 

Hm. Here's a suggestion to consider: everyone's experience starts at the same level, but increases every time the player posts 200 or more words of RP. Or of game-related discussion, if you prefer. You certainly don't have to this, or any variant of it, but my reasoning is: 1. Mechanics encouraging discussion or RP are almost always effective / popular. 2. Starting the game with some players more disadvantaged than others by chance is okay, but not something players always enjoy. (This ties into a stronger principle of 'complete randomness takes agency away from players', which I'm going to try to avoid giving a speech on right now. ) 
But I know that also takes away from the flavor a little bit. 

2 minutes ago, Elandera said:

While it's great this also activates a trap, I'm not so sure about it checking alignment. Alignment scans can be tricky in balancing a game, as it gives decided advantage if that person can stay alive. If you made this an action scan, you could also make the spy a neutral role fairly easily. Though that would be similar to the Aviar Spy... except it would show anyone who didn't take an action (passive Aviar) or took an action that didn't count as an Aviar (elim kill). You'd also need to decide if the Killer, Aviar Killer, and Elim Kill would all scan the same or differently (my vote is the same, as it helps obscure both the good and bad killers).

Okay, this is also a good point. I was more focused on the confirmed roles, but alignment scanners can cause similar mayoring issues. A Spy could claim C1, asking for protection, and confirm people every day. And then the elims can't kill the scanner, and have to either let confirmed villagers build up or commit to killing them every night. (Unless there are two protects. Then it's even worse.) Probably the Spy gets lynched eventually, to make sure they've been village, but even if there's one Good Looking aviar in there it's still a huge advantage for the village. 

[Experience he/him]

As of now, yes the elim kill triggers traps.

[Elbereth she/her]

Hm. I would advise against that. The village killer doesn't have to kill: killing should be dangerous for them, so they don't just kill someone every cycle even if they don't have a target. The elims do have to kill (or, they technically don't - I'm pretty sure there was a game where they didn't or near-didn't - but it makes the game much harder), so the risk-benefit looks less like "both options have pros and cons" and more like "both options have cons". It's akin to every village lynch having a 15% chance of killing a village - the village will still do it because they don't have other options, but it'll make the game harder to win. A killer can say "ah well, I gambled and lost". The elims can only say "I did what I had to and chance killed me anyway". 

Or, revision: if you choose that ruling, I would recommend a stronger elim team than standard (so, larger size or at least one healer or both - healers help a lot here, in fact). 

[xinoehp512 he/him]

13 hours ago, Elbereth said:

release a Nightmaw at their preferred target.

Just a little idea- a Patji's Flower trap instead, for flavor? 

[Experience he/him]

Here is the new and improved version. I think I addressed all of the problems so far. 

First of the Sun MR:

You are a group of adventurers on Patji who have traitors in your midst. The Traitorous Trappers need to equal the number of Trappers to win. The Trappers need to eliminate all of the Traitorous Trappers to win. 

Aviar(Roles):

Healer: Your Aviar gives you the knowledge to heal all but the most deadly of wounds. (each night you can protect one person from death. You cannot protect yourself two nights in a row. If someone is attacked by a Nightmaw, then your protection fails.)

Spy: Your Aviar gifts you with stealthiness letting you spy on the other Trappers. (Each night, you can check one person's alignment. Has 30% chance of giving wrong alignment)[Activates Traps]

Good-looking: Your Aviar looks amazing and gives you the gift to look good as well.(If you are spied on, then you will appear as a Trapper. If your Aviar is spied on, then they appear as a Hidden Aviar)

Hidden: Your Aviar hides your mind from predators. (If the Nightmaw attacks you, you don’t die)

Messenger Your Aviar allows you to speak in somebody's mind for a short period of time. (During the night you can set up one PM with one other player. Must include GM(s). After night ends, you are not allowed to talk in the PM anymore)[Activates Traps]

Aviar Killer You know that without their Aviar, the traitors will be greatly weakened. Your Aviar gives you the ability to trap Aviar(Each night you can choose to kill one players Aviar)[Activates Traps]

Aviar Spy Your Aviar gives you the power to know other Aviar’s gifts. (Each night you can choose one person and you learn their Aviar's power)[Activates Traps]

Experience:

Supreme - 5%

Master - 9%

Apprentice - 13%

Amatuer - 17%

Events:

• Nightmaw attacks(Once per game, the Traitorous Trappers can unleash a Nightmaw instead of their night kill. The Nightmaw attack cannot be protected by the healer). 

• Traps(If a person uses an Aviar power that Activates Traps then the percent of their experience is used. Whatever the percent is, whenever you encounter a trap you have that percent chance of dying. Mafia attack does not activate traps.) Healers can protect you from traps. Each time that you encounter a trap and survive, you become more experienced and your experience percent decreases by 1(to a minimum of 1). 

 

Order of actions:

Traps

Aviar Spy & spy

Heal

Maf kill & aviar kill & nightmaw attack

Messenger

Other Things:

• A tie lynch vote is randomly chosen
• No PM's allowed except with the messenger
• Players submit their role actions through their GM PM.
• Traps are something that are there at the beginning of the game. You don't place them. Whenever you use an action that encounters a trap, then you have your experience percent chance of dying.  

Changed rules:

• Scrapped the kill role.
• Changed Nightmaw
• Changed traps slightly
• Changed Spy
• Made Spy and Healer not alignment specific. 

Edited March 30, 2020 by EXPERIENCE

[Experience he/him]

Also wondering, would it work to make it so that the maf can't win until they have unleashed the Nightmaw?

[Experience he/him]

Where do I go to sign up as a GM?

[Straw he/him]

4 hours ago, EXPERIENCE said:

Where do I go to sign up as a GM?

You usually ask one of the mods. @Devotary of Spontaneity is on at the moment, so they might be able to help.

[Zillah she/her]

I have been developing a ruleset recently, and I was hoping for some feedback/suggestions. I have linked the document rather than putting the entire ruleset here. (Because formatting.)

[link has been removed]

Edited April 18, 2020 by Zillah
Typo

[Straw he/him]

46 minutes ago, Zillah said:

I have been developing a ruleset recently, and I was hoping for some feedback/suggestions. I have linked the document rather than putting the entire ruleset here. (Because formatting.)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11lpB6xRY07yPCxO5ps7xOpZ50iSgrbyDBI-zI3TmhYg

I need permission to access that document,

[Elbereth she/her]

@EXPERIENCE what format of game would you like to sign up for? 

[Straw he/him]

Just now, Elbereth said:

@EXPERIENCE what format of game would you like to sign up for? 

Fifth said he handled it.

[Elbereth she/her]

Yep, he did.  I just saw. 

[Zillah she/her]

1 hour ago, Straw said:

I need permission to access that document,

I think I fixed it now. 

[Experience he/him]

What do the percents on the right side of the tables stand for?

[Zillah she/her]

The percentage is the likelihood of that passion being given to a player. It corresponds to the reference chart below. I wanted to use a D20 as my “RNG” for them because I’m a nerd and why not? 

[Experience he/him]

I'm guessing that the Undercover Emissaries have a faction kill?

[Zillah she/her]

11 minutes ago, EXPERIENCE said:

I'm guessing that the Undercover Emissaries have a faction kill?

Yeah, they would. 

@Straw I think I fixed the link/document, is it working for you?

[Straw he/him]

20 minutes ago, Zillah said:

Yeah, they would. 

@Straw I think I fixed the link/document, is it working for you?

Yes.

[Straw he/him]

Okay, I kind of forgot about Zillah's game, and never ended up really looking at it.  So, here are my thoughts on it:

In general:

First of all, I assume that this game is either a mid-range or a long game? I'd personally recommend making it a long game, but that's just my preference, and it could probably work as a complex mid-range.

Looking at the factions, there isn't really any information about them other than some nice flavor. Given the colors, I'll just assume that they're standard village and elim factions with the elims having a doc and a kill.

Passion tables:

-I'm glad that the illegal table has consequences. I was worried that the elims could just repeatedly choose that table and hope for an extra kill.

-As far as I can tell, safety is focused around beneficial actions, illegal stuff is focused around negative actions, and politicking is a mix of both.

-I feel like the most intelligent move for the village would to just have everyone choose politicking. Assuming everyone who gets the passion of passions chooses research, around 30% of the village would get a scan every cycle. Additionally, this advantage grows when you consider the passion of planning, as this would allow a player to have two chances at getting passion/research. Combined with the fact that no one has a role, and is therefore free to release any results, the eliminators are pretty much doomed.

-Assuming you nerf the above strategy, there's also an issue with the safety table. By employing a similar method to the one I described above, you could get a large number of villagers with action scans and protects. By using these, you can get a pretty high chance of either blocking the elim kill or finding a possible suspect to lynch. Players who rolled survival could redirect to protected players, which would waste the elim kill.

It's almost past midnight, so I'll go sleep and maybe post some more thoughts later.

[Zillah she/her]

16 minutes ago, Straw said:

-I feel like the most intelligent move for the village would to just have everyone choose politicking. Assuming everyone who gets the passion of passions chooses research, around 30% of the village would get a scan every cycle. Additionally, this advantage grows when you consider the passion of planning, as this would allow a player to have two chances at getting passion/research. Combined with the fact that no one has a role, and is therefore free to release any results, the eliminators are pretty much doomed.

Thats a very fair point, a couple edits I have in mind are as follows:

-The passion of passions excludes one thing on each table, for the politicking table maybe change it from logic to research

-change logic from ‘move a vote’ to ‘you get two votes’ 

-Switch passion of research to 10% and logic to 15%

[Straw he/him]

@BrightnessRadiant game related discussion is difficult to quantify. In my opinion, it’s better to go with a definite thing, both for GM sanity and so players can keep track. I’ve seen someone (DrakeMarshall in QF30 I believe) used a vote based inactivity filter. As Elandera said, a word count filter could work. As my rule in LG64, I did a PM based inactivity filter, but PMs were also tied with action targets and stuff. If your game has any special mechanics, you could also make players use those mechanics as an inactivity filter (the KKC games are an example of this).

[BrightnessRadiant she/her]

2 hours ago, Straw said:

@BrightnessRadiant game related discussion is difficult to quantify. In my opinion, it’s better to go with a definite thing, both for GM sanity and so players can keep track. I’ve seen someone (DrakeMarshall in QF30 I believe) used a vote based inactivity filter. As Elandera said, a word count filter could work. As my rule in LG64, I did a PM based inactivity filter, but PMs were also tied with action targets and stuff. If your game has any special mechanics, you could also make players use those mechanics as an inactivity filter (the KKC games are an example of this).

Yeah I couldn't remember which thread to post this in. Thanks!

Yeah in my Reckoners game I made it where you got points to spend on the black market for a certain amount of game related posts + rp posts. But I feel like there should be something else that keeps the players from being in the game and not posting a single thought or vote. I really like the vote filter. That's a good one I might use. Because it gives stuff to analyze at least if you don't say anything else.