ScarletSabre he/him Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 So I just have a quick question/thought about Spook being spiked in Hero of Ages.... Spoilers ahead if you haven't read HOA! (And from that opening sentence I guess, but oh well...) We know from WOB that Hemalurgy has to have intent and knowledge behind it, that nobody else in the Cosmere is going to discover it by accident when they stab/spear someone with magic through the heart. So my question is this... (and bear in mind I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, as is often the case I'm posting here whilst at work and bored.) When Spook is spiked, he's spiked by one of the Quellion's guards through another guard, his sword tip driving through the first man's heart and into Spook's shoulder, where it breaks off to become a spike that grants Pewter. So did that guard who stabbed Spook through his companion have the knowledge/intent of Hemalurgy to grant him said spike? Or did Quellion use his own Hemelurgically-granted Steel to push the blade through one man and into Spook? Ruin managed to influence him to place his Spike himself after all, so he does have the knowledge. But would he have the intent? As far as he knows Ruin hasn't started influencing Spook until he's spiked and able to get his fingers into him, so Ruin wouldn't be urging him towards spiking Spook. Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 In that case, it was Ruin directly providing the intent. 39 minutes ago, Rawrbert said: did Quellion use his own Hemelurgically-granted Steel Quellion's spike is Allomantic bronze IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletSabre he/him Posted November 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 8 minutes ago, Oversleep said: In that case, it was Ruin directly providing the intent. Quellion's spike is Allomantic bronze IIRC. So a Shard providing the intent allows anyone to spike anyone? That's an honestly scary thought if true... Ooooooooooh, riiiiiiiight, I forgot about that. Spook ASSUMED he was a Coinshot, but that turned out to be Beldra, not Quellion. So that takes out Quellion doing the Spiking by proxy then... so unless Ruin took control of the aim of the soldier who stabbed Spook through his companion, he shouldn't have created a spike, unless he knew about it and intended to for some reason... Spoiler The soldier who stabbed him was Hoid, for some great plan of his that spans the whole Cosmere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goody153 Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 It was most likely Ruin trying to spike Spook but actually managed to do so. Afaik it was mentioned in one of the epigraphs that Ruin has a hard time manipulating in order to spike people (probably meant without the help of steel inquisitors holding somebody down) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 6 minutes ago, Rawrbert said: So a Shard providing the intent allows anyone to spike anyone? That's an honestly scary thought if true... Ooooooooooh, riiiiiiiight, I forgot about that. Spook ASSUMED he was a Coinshot, but that turned out to be Beldra, not Quellion. So that takes out Quellion doing the Spiking by proxy then... so unless Ruin took control of the aim of the soldier who stabbed Spook through his companion, he shouldn't have created a spike, unless he knew about it and intended to for some reason... Hide contents The soldier who stabbed him was Hoid, for some great plan of his that spans the whole Cosmere! Ruin provided the intent, we have direct confirmation of it. Will try to find the quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletSabre he/him Posted November 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 31 minutes ago, Voidus said: Ruin provided the intent, we have direct confirmation of it. Will try to find the quote. Ah, so Shards can provide Intent.... if Odium ever finds out about Hemalurgy, the Knights Radiant better have figured out how to make Shardplate to protect their hearts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 29 minutes ago, Rawrbert said: Ah, so Shards can provide Intent.... if Odium ever finds out about Hemalurgy, the Knights Radiant better have figured out how to make Shardplate to protect their hearts! As far as we know "The Shardholder of Ruin can provide the Intent" but we don't if it's a privilege of his own and other shard may replicate it. I saw it as the "have a little control over the Magic he fuels" but actually I have no proofs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manukos he/him Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 wait muinute shards cant just create hemalurgy for their own seperate magics , can they? meaning if u spike a selian through an elantrian the person wouldnt gain any abilities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondesu he/him Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 @harambe, Hemalurgy can be used to steal abilities from any magic system. What we don't know is what type of spikes would be needed to steal each ability, or where the bind points would be. That doesn't require the other Shards to have anything to do with it; Hemalurgy's magic system is entirely based on the fact that it steals portions of other people's spiritwebs (or souls). You simply steal the part that lets them access the particular form of magic they can use, and then that gets "stapled" onto the spiritweb of the person who receives the spike. Presumably, then, you could spike a Selian through an Elantrian, and that person would gain the Elantrian magics, but I don't know if there would be different portions, or if it would simply make them an Elantrian with everything that goes along with that. Roshar's Nahel Bond to a Spren could maybe be stolen, though we're not sure, but in that case, it would almost certainly be useless because the spiked person wouldn't be maintaining the Oaths. Again, that hasn't been confirmed, though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalaCrisp88 Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 2 hours ago, Jondesu said: Roshar's Nahel Bond to a Spren could maybe be stolen, though we're not sure, but in that case, it would almost certainly be useless because the spiked person wouldn't be maintaining the Oaths. Again, that hasn't been confirmed, though. Actually, it has been confirmed. Don't have the exact quote, but BS said that you can steal Nahel bonds and living sprenblades. The person would indeed have to maintain the oaths in order to do magic, but it wouldn't be very likely to happen. After that, BS confirmed that "you're all sick people". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondesu he/him Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 2 hours ago, 8giraffe8 said: Actually, it has been confirmed. Don't have the exact quote, but BS said that you can steal Nahel bonds and living sprenblades. The person would indeed have to maintain the oaths in order to do magic, but it wouldn't be very likely to happen. After that, BS confirmed that "you're all sick people". Haha, that's right, I remember that one now. Only because of that last part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenod Posted November 1, 2016 Report Share Posted November 1, 2016 2 hours ago, 8giraffe8 said: After that, BS confirmed that "you're all sick people". Welcome to the Dark Alley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceblade44 he/him Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 11 hours ago, Yata said: As far as we know "The Shardholder of Ruin can provide the Intent" but we don't if it's a privilege of his own and other shard may replicate it. I saw it as the "have a little control over the Magic he fuels" but actually I have no proofs Yeah that what i always thought, to me its sorta like how Preservation can fuel allomancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oversleep Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 (edited) 6 minutes ago, iceblade44 said: Yeah that what i always thought, to me its sorta like how Preservation can fuel allomancy. It's not quite that comparision. Ruin can also fuel Metallic Arts just like Preservation can. See: Quote Czanos (17 October 2008) Preservation can fuel Allomancy, (Minus Atium.) but can Ruin fuel Hemalurgy? (Or Atium?) And could Sazed fuel all three Metallic Arts? Brandon Sanderson (17 October 2008) Both gods could, if they wanted, fuel all of the metallic arts. Preservation is stronger at fueling Allomancy, Ruin stronger at fueling Allomancy or Feruchemy when it has been given via a spike. Both are balanced when it comes to Feruchemy. But this rarely comes up in the books, as it required expending power in a way that the gods were hesitant to do.source Edited November 2, 2016 by Oversleep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceblade44 he/him Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 (edited) Yeah im getting what your saying, so by going with this logic Preservation would know some spots to place a Hermalurgic spike while Ruin would know all the places. Edited November 2, 2016 by iceblade44 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 8 minutes ago, iceblade44 said: Yeah im getting what your saying, so by going with this logic Preservation would know some spots to place a Hermalurgic spike while Ruin would know all the places. Not really. I believe both are aware of the nuances of all the metallic arts. When we're talking about fueling the metallic arts, we're referring to the shards directly using their investiture to empower a specific metallic art, like how Vin was able to draw directly on the mists for allomancy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 That concept may explain how someone who held Preservation for a bit could know certain things about the arts; the knowledge may be instinctive to the Shards. However, if they were not focused on that information they would likely not recall it consciously upon releasing the power as they would no longer have the mental capacity to manage so much information. So Rashek probably kept his knowledge of ecosystems and genetics, but not having focused on Hemalurgy he did not recall anything but the suggestions Ruin implanted. Spoiler In contrast, not only did Kelsier hold the power longer, but some part of his mind was likely seeking a means to reconnect to the physical realm, albeit non-consciously. He was also always fascinated by the three arts. So the knowledge is likely still extent in his mind; possibly quite close to the surface awaiting a catalyst to cause recall. On the other hand, Kell's knowledge of the sciences has probably returned to baseline after giving over Preservation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUQ he/him Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 22 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: Spoiler On the other hand, Kell's knowledge of the sciences has probably returned to baseline after giving over Preservation. Don't forget the Sliver effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cometaryorbit Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 12 hours ago, Jondesu said: @harambe, Hemalurgy can be used to steal abilities from any magic system. What we don't know is what type of spikes would be needed to steal each ability, or where the bind points would be. Well, we don't know the specific spike types, but Atium steals anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata he/him Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 (edited) 7 hours ago, Oversleep said: It's not quite that comparision. Ruin can also fuel Metallic Arts just like Preservation can. See: Maybe more like "Preservation switched the Misting's Metal and changed the way the Snapping works" as manipulation of his own Magic System Edited November 2, 2016 by Yata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goody153 Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 (edited) 13 hours ago, iceblade44 said: Yeah im getting what your saying, so by going with this logic Preservation would know some spots to place a Hermalurgic spike while Ruin would know all the places. Uhmm i don't think preservation actually knows about the intricacies Hemalurgy aside from really seeing how it's done. Any WoB or Epigraph i've read so far about people who knows about the ins and outs of hemalurgy always points out either Ruin/Ati or Sazed. There is nobody else mentioned, it's always the holder of Ruin. I think the WoB just meant about the final battle between Elend and Marsh where both person was fueled by Preservation and Ruin respectively. And both afaik were fueling allomancy (and maybe feruchemy too by Ruin to Sazed). Edited November 2, 2016 by goody153 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted November 2, 2016 Report Share Posted November 2, 2016 Spoiler Kelsier says he would have figured it out if he'd focused on that information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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