Shallan's drawing of Shalash - similar thing with Syl...?

[Oversleep]

Quote

ccstat: In Words of Radiance, Shallan draws a picture of someone destroying a statue. If attentive, could that person have been aware of being "observed" at the time?
Brandon: I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. I need more detail of what you're trying to get at here.
NeedsAdjustment: I think he's asking if Shalash(???) could have (or did) felt Shallan observing her.

Brandon: Looking at it again, I realize I'm asking for more clarity than they'd be able to provide. I do understand the question, but at the same time, my answers can can confirm or deny things that are (sometimes false) assumptions underpinning questions. So when we get into something like this, that has to do with mechanics I haven't explained very well yet, I get very hesitant about answering.

So...I'll probably just RAFO this one. For now. Though look for a scene involving Syl where something similar happens, as they are related.

source

I do not recall any scene like that. But I'm sure somebody here would know what Brandon is talking about!

Edited October 18, 2016 by Oversleep

[marianmi]

Maybe Syl seeing Pattern (without them being aware of eachother)?

Edited October 18, 2016 by marianmi

[Seeker861]

It could be a reference to that time in the chasm when Syl took on the appearance of another woman. 

[KnightRadiant she/her]

When was that quote from? Like, what date? It could, possibly, not have happened yet.

Edit: Never mind, just saw it. It was pretty recent, so it could be in Oathbringer.

Edited October 19, 2016 by KnightRadiant

[Oversleep]

9 minutes ago, KnightRadiant said:

When was that quote from? Like, what date? It could, possibly, not have happened yet.

Edit: Never mind, just saw it. It was pretty recent, so it could be in Oathbringer.

Oh right. It could mean that.

[Argent he/him]

I've been thinking about this one, and I think it might warrant a closer inspection of the scene where Shallan has her vision. "Something similar" can cover a range of possibilities, and doesn't necessarily mean that Shallan has had another similar vision.

[The Sovereign]

17 minutes ago, Argent said:

I've been thinking about this one, and I think it might warrant a closer inspection of the scene where Shallan has her vision. "Something similar" can cover a range of possibilities, and doesn't necessarily mean that Shallan has had another similar vision.

For Reference:

Quote

 

"She paused, noticing what she’d drawn: a rocky shore near the ocean, with distinctive cliffs rising behind. The perspective was distant; on the rocky shore, several shadowy figures helped one another out of the water. She swore one of them was Yalb.

A hopeful fancy. She wished so much for them to be alive. She would probably never know.

She turned the page and drew what came to her. A sketch of a woman kneeling over a body, raising a hammer and chisel, as if to slam it down into the person’s face. The one beneath her was stiff, wooden . . . maybe even stone?”

 

 

[Shardbearer he/him]

I can't think of any incident with Syl that is similar to this vision.

[The Sovereign]

29 minutes ago, Shardbearer said:

I can't think of any incident with Syl that is similar to this vision.

The only thing I can think of is Kaladin's flying dream when he see Szeth during one of his assassinations.

[Argent he/him]

1 hour ago, Iron Eyes said:

The only thing I can think of is Kaladin's flying dream when he see Szeth during one of his assassinations.

Where he "flies" over all of Roshar, as if he were one with the highstorm? Let's look at the circumstances that led to both visions then.

[Shardbearer he/him]

Well, in that scene it does appear Szeth saw or sensed Kal...

but that scene really doesn't involve Syl directly, so I'm not sure if it's what BWS was referring to.

[The Sovereign]

30 minutes ago, Argent said:

Where he "flies" over all of Roshar, as if he were one with the highstorm? Let's look at the circumstances that led to both visions then.

Precisely. If I remember correctly (I'd say I'm about 70% sure) Shallan is examining some plants during her journey to the shattered plains the morning after she Killed Tyn when she has her vision. Not much of an overlap of circumstances. Although I believe there was a Highstorm the day before. Could it be the close proximity to that much Investiture can cause these "glimpses"?

Edited October 19, 2016 by Iron Eyes

[Argent he/him]

Our haziness on the details is why I want to make sure we get everything fully right. I've had a pet theory that the center of the highstorm, the eye of the storm, is almost like a perpendicularity, an area where the border between realms is weak (which is why it is entirely serene, why the Stormfather is visible there, and why spheres get infused). Thinking about the stuff from this thread, I begin to wonder whether we are dealing with an area where all the realms meld a little bit, and so the spacetime-agnosticism from the Spiritual Realm might be allowing certain people, under certain circumstances, to perceive other spaces and times. This could also explain Dalinar's visions. 

So what I've been trying to do is explain that I want to see the full picture, but can't because I am at a work still

[marianmi]

23 hours ago, marianmi said:

Maybe Syl seeing Pattern (without them being aware of eachother)?

 

[ccstat he/him]

 

21 hours ago, Iron Eyes said:

The only thing I can think of is Kaladin's flying dream when he see Szeth during one of his assassinations.

This is the scene I decided he must have been referencing. I posted a follow-up, which he RAFO'd, saying he didn't want to get into the mechanics yet. I'll restate much of that post here as I speculate wildly. (Well, as soon as I have time to post again. gathering these quotes took longer than I expected.) 

17 hours ago, Argent said:

Our haziness on the details is why I want to make sure we get everything fully right. I've had a pet theory that the center of the highstorm, the eye of the storm, is almost like a perpendicularity, an area where the border between realms is weak (which is why it is entirely serene, why the Stormfather is visible there, and why spheres get infused). Thinking about the stuff from this thread, I begin to wonder whether we are dealing with an area where all the realms meld a little bit, and so the spacetime-agnosticism from the Spiritual Realm might be allowing certain people, under certain circumstances, to perceive other spaces and times. This could also explain Dalinar's visions. 

I like this idea a lot. I note, though, that Dalinar's visions seem to start just as the stormwall arrives, and end with the passing of the storm. To me that suggests a generalized storm effect (and presence of the Stormfather), rather than simply proximity to the "eye".  So the visions seem less connected in my view.

A possible note in favor of this idea: as the storm approaches while Kaladin is strung up in WoK, there is this exchange:

Quote

"Why am I still alive?”

“Something about an example,” Syl said, wrapping her translucent arms around herself. “Kaladin, I feel cold.”

“You can feel temperature?” Kaladin said, coughing.

“Not usually. I can now. I don’t understand it. I… I don’t like it.”

It may be that she could feel temperature because of the thinning boundary between the realms? Anyway, back to the topic at hand.Here are the two scenes, for reference:

Shallan’s experience occurs in chapter 30 of WoR two days before they reach the Shattered Plains, a day before she kills Tyn. They stop in a lait that has intriguing plants in it so Shallan can draw them. After she’s done those, 

Quote

she moved on to drawing whatever struck her. It was so nice to not be moving on a wagon while sketching. The environment here was just perfect—sufficient light for drawing, still and serene, surrounded by life…
She paused, noticing what she’d drawn: a rocky shore near the ocean, with distinctive cliffs rising behind. The perspective was distant; on the rocky shore, several shadowy figures helped one another out of the water. She swore one of them was Yalb.
A hopeful fancy. She wished so much for them to be alive. She would probably never know.
She turned the page and drew what came to her. A sketch of a woman kneeling over a body, raising a hammer and chisel, as if to slam it down into the person’s face. The one beneath her was stiff, wooden . . . maybe even stone?”

Kaladin’s experience is in chapter 46 of WoK. He has recently survived being strung up in a highstorm, and in the previous chapter from his viewpoint (43) he spent a while pondering about “life before death,” deciding to embrace the journey.

It is a long passage, but the details may be important, so rather than edit it down I’ll spoiler the less relevant sections with brief summary.

Kaladin dreams he is the storm, sees the shattered plains and other lands, then sees flashes of light that attract his attention. He follows the flashes.

Spoiler

 

Kaladin dreamed he was the storm.

He raged forward, the stormwall behind him his trailing cape, soaring above a heaving, black expanse. The ocean. His passing churned up a tempest, slamming waves into one another, lifting white caps to be caught in his wind.

He approached a dark continent and soared upward. Higher. Higher. He left the sea behind. The vastness of the continent spread out before him, seemingly endless, an ocean of rock. So large, he thought, awed. He hadn’t understood. How could he have?

He roared past the Shattered Plains. They looked as if something very large had hit them at the center, sending rippling breaks outward. They too were larger than he’d expected; no wonder nobody had been able to find their way through the chasms.

There was a large plateau at the center, but with the darkness and the distance, he could not see much. There were lights, though. Someone lived there.

He did see that the eastern side of the plains was very different from the western side, marked by tall, spindly pillars, plateaus that had nearly been worn away. Despite that, he could see a symmetry to the Shattered Plains. From high above, the plains resembled a work of art.

In a moment, he was past them, continuing north and west to soar across the Sea of Spears, a shallow inland sea where broken fingers of rock jutted above the water. He passed over Alethkar, catching a glimpse of the great city of Kholinar, built amid formations of rock like fins rising from the stone. Then he turned southward, away from anything he knew. He crested majestic mountains, densely populated at their tips, with villages clustered near vents that emitted steam or lava. The Horneater Peaks?

He left them with rain and winds, rumbling down into foreign lands. He passed cities and open plains, villages and twisting waterways. There were many armies. Kaladin passed tents pulled flat against the leeward sides of rock formations, stakes driven into the rock to hold them taut, men hidden inside. He passed hillsides where soldiers huddled in clefts. He passed large wooden wagons, built to house lighteyes while at war. How many wars was the world fighting? Was there nowhere that was at peace?

He took a path to the southwest, blowing toward a city built in long troughs in the ground that looked like giant claw marks ripped across the landscape. He was over it in a flash, passing a hinterland where the stone itself was ribbed and rippled, like frozen waves of water. The people in this kingdom were dark-skinned, like Sigzil.

The land went on and on. Hundreds of cities. Thousands of villages. People with faintly blue veins beneath their skin. A place where the pressure of the approaching highstorm blew water out of spouts in the ground. A city where people lived in gigantic, hollowed-out stalactites hanging beneath a titanic sheltered ridge.

Westward he blew. The land was so vast. So enormous. So many different people. It dazzled his mind. War seemed far less prevalent in the West than it was in the East, and that comforted him, but still he was troubled. Peace seemed a scarce commodity in the world.

Something drew his attention. Strange flashes of light. He blew toward them at the forefront of the storm. What were those lights? They came in bursts, forming the strangest patterns. Almost like physical things that he could reach out and touch, spherical bubbles of light that vibrated with spikes and troughs.

Kaladin crossed a strange city laid out in a triangular pattern, with tall peaks rising like sentries at the corners and center. The flashes of light were coming from a building on the central peak. Kaladin knew he would pass quickly, for as the storm, he could not retreat. Ever westward he blew.

He threw open the door with his wind, entering a long hallway with bright red tile walls, mosaic murals that he passed too quickly to make out. He rustled the skirts of tall, golden-haired serving women who carried trays of food or steaming towels. They called in a strange language, perhaps wondering who had left a window unbarred in a highstorm.

 

Kaladin sees Szeth, who notices his presence.

Quote

The flashes of light came from directly ahead. So transfixing. Brushing past a pretty gold-and red-haired woman who huddled frightened in a corner, Kaladin burst through a door. He had one brief glimpse of what lay beyond.

A man stood over two corpses. His pale head shaved, his clothing white, the murderer held a long, thin sword in one hand. He looked up from his victims and almost seemed to see Kaladin. He had large Shin eyes.

It was too late to see anything more. Kaladin blew out the window, throwing shutters wide and streaking into the night.

The stormfather tells Kaladin the Oathpact is shattered, Odium is coming, and Kal needs to get out of his storm.

Spoiler

More cities, mountains, and forests passed in a blur. At his advent, plants curled up their leaves, rockbuds closed their shells, and shrubs withdrew their branches. Before long, he neared the western ocean.

CHILD OF TANAVAST. CHILD OF HONOR. CHILD OF ONE LONG SINCE DEPARTED. The sudden voice shook Kaladin; he floundered in the air.

THE OATHPACT WAS SHATTERED.

The booming sound made the stormwall itself vibrate. Kaladin hit the ground, separating from the storm. He skidded to a stop, feet throwing up sprays of water. Stormwinds crashed into him, but he was enough a part of them that they neither tossed nor shook him.

MEN RIDE THE STORMS NO LONGER. The voice was thunder, crashing in the air. THE OATHPACT IS BROKEN, CHILD OF HONOR.

“I don’t understand!” Kaladin screamed into the tempest.

A face formed before him, the face he had seen before, the aged face as wide as the sky, its eyes full of stars.

ODIUM COMES. MOST DANGEROUS OF ALL THE SIXTEEN. YOU WILL NOW GO.

Something blew against him. “Wait!” Kaladin said. “Why is there so much war? Must we always fight?” He wasn’t sure why he asked. The questions simply came out.

The storm rumbled, like a thoughtful aged father. The face vanished, shattering into droplets of water.

More softly, the voice answered, ODIUM REIGNS.

 

Kaladin wakes up in the riddens of a highstorm, held down by the bridgemen to keep him from walking outside in a "fever dream."

Spoiler

 

Kaladin gasped as he awoke. He was surrounded by dark figures, holding him down against the hard stone floor. He yelled, old reflexes taking over. Instinctively, he snapped his hands outward to the sides, each grabbing an ankle and jerking to pull two assailants off balance.

They cursed, crashing to the ground. Kaladin used the moment to twist while bringing an arm up in a sweep. He knocked free the hands pushing him down, rocked and threw himself forward, lurching into the man directly in front of him.

Kaladin rolled over him, tucking and coming up on his feet, free of his captives. He spun, flinging sweat from his brow. Where was his spear? He clutched for the knife at his belt.

 No knife. No spear.

 “Storm you, Kaladin!” That was Teft.

Kaladin raised a hand to his breast, breathing deliberately, dispelling the strange dream. Bridge Four. He was with Bridge Four. The king’s stormwardens had predicted a highstorm in the early morning hours.

“It’s all right,” he said to the cursing, twisting clump of bridgemen who had been holding him down. “What were you doing?”

“You tried to go out in the storm,” Moash said accusingly, extricating himself. The only light was a single diamond sphere one of the men had set in the corner.

“Ha!” Rock added, standing up and brushing himself off. “Had the door open to the rain, staring out, as if you’d been hit on the head with stone. We had to pull you back. Is not good for you to spend another two weeks sick in bed, eh?”

Kaladin calmed himself. The riddens— the quiet rainfall at the trailing end of a highstorm— continued outside, drops sprinkling the roof.

“You wouldn’t wake up,” Sigzil said. Kaladin glanced at the Azish man, sitting with his back to the stone wall. He hadn’t tried to hold Kaladin down. “You were having some kind of fever dream.”

“I feel just fine,” Kaladin said. That wasn’t quite true; his head ached and he was exhausted. He took a deep breath and threw back his shoulders, trying to force the fatigue away.

The sphere in the corner flickered. Then its light faded away, leaving them in darkness.

 

Unfortunately, I'm out of time for posting, but I'll try to be back with some speculation and theorycrafting before too long.

[Argent he/him]

3 minutes ago, ccstat said:

The stormfather tells Kaladin the Oathpact is shattered, Odium is coming, and Kal needs to get out of his storm.

Storming kids, get off my lawn storm!

The Stormfather makes so much more sense if you imagine him as a grumpy grandpa.

Unfortunately, I don't see a connection between Shallan's subconscious ability to see things (the Cryptics in Kharbranth, the ship survivors, Shalash), Kaladin's stormriding, and Dalinar's visions. There has to be a common element, but it's probably not a root reason, just something all three touch in different ways. 

[Treamayne]

21 hours ago, Argent said:

Unfortunately, I don't see a connection between Shallan's subconscious ability to see things (the Cryptics in Kharbranth, the ship survivors, Shalash), Kaladin's stormriding, and Dalinar's visions. There has to be a common element, but it's probably not a root reason, just something all three touch in different ways. 

Except, didn't the referenced WoB say to watch for something similar happening to Syl?

Quote

So...I'll probably just RAFO this one. For now. Though look for a scene involving Syl where something similar happens, as they are related.

So, shouldn't we be looking for an event where Syl "knows" or "sees" something she normally shouldn't?  Possibly when she references the red Lightning spren

[Argent he/him]

The thing is, "something involving Syl" is awfully vague. It could be something Kaladin does while Syl is around, it could be something Syl does on her own, or it could even be something Rock does while Syl is around!

[Treamayne]

 

21 hours ago, Argent said:

The thing is, "something involving Syl" is awfully vague. It could be something Kaladin does while Syl is around, it could be something Syl does on her own, or it could even be something Rock does while Syl is around!

True, but Syl wasn't in the scene with the dream about riding the Highstorm. She doesn't show up until after Rock shaves him in the riddens. In the second dream (WoR, Ch 32) the Stormfather is telling Kaladin how he will betray Syl and kill her and he gets a visions of the Everstorm, Could that one be "involving Syl" enough?

 

Spoiler

With effort, he turned around. A face as large as eternity stretched behind him, the force behind the tempest, the Stormfather himself.

SON OF HONOR, said a voice like roaring wind.

“This is real!” Kaladin yelled into the storm. He was wind itself. Spren. He found voice somehow. “You are real!”

SHE TRUSTS YOU.

“Syl?” Kaladin called. “Yes, she does.”

SHE SHOULD NOT.

“Are you the one who forbade her to come to me? Are you the one who keeps the spren back?”

YOU WILL KILL HER. The voice, so deep, so powerful, sounded regretful. Mournful. YOU WILL MURDER MY CHILD AND LEAVE HER CORPSE TO WICKED MEN.

“I will not!” Kaladin shouted.

YOU BEGIN IT ALREADY.

The storm continued. Kaladin saw the world from above. Ships in sheltered harbors rocking on violent swells. Armies huddled in valleys, preparing for war in a place of many hills and mountains. A vast lake going dry ahead of his arrival, the water retreating into holes in the rock beneath.

“How can I prevent it?” Kaladin demanded. “How can I protect her?”

YOU ARE HUMAN. YOU WILL BE A TRAITOR.

“No I won’t!”

YOU WILL CHANGE. MEN CHANGE. ALL MEN.

The continent was so vast. So many people speaking languages he could not comprehend, everyone hiding in their rooms, their caverns, their valleys.

AH, the Stormfather said. SO IT WILL END.

“What?” Kaladin shouted into the winds. “What changed? I feel—”

HE COMES FOR YOU, LITTLE TRAITOR. I AM SORRY.

Something rose before Kaladin. A second storm, one of red lightning, so enormous as to make the continent—the world itself—into nothing by comparison. Everything fell into its shadow. (emphasis mine)

I AM SORRY, the Stormfather said. HE COMES.

Kaladin awoke, heart thundering in his chest.

The second dream, at least, is a prescient vision rather than a remote viewing of something currently happening. Which begs the question of whether Shallan's drawings were happening when she drew them, or visions of something past or future.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Treamayne
final comment added

[ccstat he/him]

Okay, I'm back briefly. Here is my conjecture on how this all fits together.

Note: I use conjecture here because I jump to conclusions and there is not enough evidence to develop it into a theory. With that disclaimer, thank you to Treamayne for the segue--this comment sets up my thought process well. 

On 10/22/2016 at 0:02 PM, Treamayne said:

but Syl wasn't in the scene with the dream about riding the Highstorm. She doesn't show up until after Rock shaves him in the riddens.

I think both cases of storm riding absolutely involve Syl, though she isn't named. As you recall, Syl usually disappears during a highstorm, presumably to fly with her windspren cousins. She finds her way back later, but for a little time at least she travels with the storm.

In the scene that Treamayne quoted from WoR, Kal realizes he is experiencing more than just a weird dream:

"This is real!" Kaladin yelled into the storm. He was the wind itself. Spren.

Now that is an odd thing to say. There are multiple interpretations, but I think it means his consciousness is riding along with Syl in the storm. Clearly still separate, since he has his own "private" conversation with the booming voice, but in some mechanistic sense he's a passenger. 

Syl obviously can't go all the way to Azir or those other places Kal flew over in his first dream. But I don't think that matters. I think that the Stormfather is central to this process. He kicks Kal out of his storm at the end of the first vision, and in the chasm after Syl's death he yells at Kal: "FAREWELL, SON OF HONOR. YOU WILL NOT RIDE MY WINDS AGAIN." That could be a simple "doesn't work without a spren" issue, but it sounds more like "permission denied" to me. Either way, without Syl and/or the Stormfather's permission Kal can't ride the storm. I am imagining that the Stormfather can allow himself to be used as a sort of carrier wave, onto which you can piggyback additional information content like human perception or a spren's consciousness. i.e. a portion of one's cognitive aspect can hitch a ride to wherever the Stormfather is. 

I envision then that Kal's bond with Syl allows him to gain entrance into the storm with her, and as long as she is dancing in the highstorm, he has a third-party link to the Stormfather and can see what is happening where the Stormfather is. Once the storm passes, that connection is broken and the dream ends. Fine print: the Stormfather reserves the right to deny service to any connection requests.

The main thing I like about this framework is that it provides a possible explanation for how Shallan's drawings could share a mechanism even though they occurred in the complete absence of a highstorm. See, her order is on the opposite side of the surgebinding chart from Kal's. Most interpret as a closer association with Cultivation than with Honor. I don't know if Cultivation has a mega-spren counterpart to the Stormfather, but I don't think one is strictly required. Shallan was doing her drawings in a particularly verdant lait, full of living, growing things. The rich plant and animal life, thriving in the middle of less fertile land, could indicate an essentially cultivated character in the location. So in my model, Pattern is sitting in a place with a higher-than-normal concentration of Cultivation's essence. Shallan can piggyback into a connection to other vibrant/cultivated locales. Perhaps that is why the view of the shipwreck survivors is from a distance: the closest vantage point for an easy connection was in a garden waaaay down the beach. We don't have any clues as to whether there was a potted plant behind Ash that would provide a good view of the statue smashing.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. I am not completely sold on this interpretation, but I do think it has a lot of potential. The biggest unknown is whether this was the scene Brandon was referring to. On balance, I think it was, but I could be extrapolating from a false comparison.

Edited October 24, 2016 by ccstat

[Argent he/him]

34 minutes ago, ccstat said:

I don't know if Cultivation has a mega-spren counterpart to the Stormfather, but I don't think one is strictly required.

The Nightwatcher is mostly that. The primary difference comes from the fact that the Stormfather is also Tanavast's cognitive shadow.

[Oversleep]

51 minutes ago, Argent said:

The Nightwatcher is mostly that. The primary difference comes from the fact that the Stormfather is also Tanavast's cognitive shadow.

But we also know that Stormfather existed before Honor as the Rider of the Storms. We do not know whether Nightwatcher is also Adonalsium spren.

[Lightspine]

Could what Sanderson said about Syl refer to when she knew that Szeth was coming to kill Dalinar? To add to previous discussion, that warning came IMMEDIATELY after Kaladin's second dream in the storm.

[ccstat he/him]

4 hours ago, Lightspine said:

Could what Sanderson said about Syl refer to when she knew that Szeth was coming to kill Dalinar? To add to previous discussion, that warning came IMMEDIATELY after Kaladin's second dream in the storm.

Good thought. I'll go look at that scene. I have attributed that to her ability to sense surgebinding from the Honorblade and/or the hateful eye of Odium on the proceedings.

15 hours ago, Argent said:

The Nightwatcher is mostly that. 

Many of us have assumed so, but I thought we were still missing confirmation of her affiliation with Cultivation. Am I forgetting something?

[The Sovereign]

1 hour ago, ccstat said:

Many of us have assumed so, but I thought we were still missing confirmation of her affiliation with Cultivation. Am I forgetting something?

As of this year:

 

Quote

 

Interview: Jan 21st, 2015

Changing Hands, AZ

the_archduke

What is the relationship between Nightwatcher and Cultivation?

Brandon Sanderson

I expected a hard RAFO, but he said Nightwatcher compared to Cultivation is similar to Stormfather compared to Honor.

Tags

Nightwatcher, Cultivation,