Gavilar's ball mystery

[manukos he/him]

i am not sure if there is an other post on the subject (propably is)but after a quick search my efforts where fruitless so ... here goes 

so i was re-re-reading WoK and smt struck me as weird mostly because i never noticed it before (or maybe i did but i was so overwhelmed by the awesomeness that i forgot)

after Szeth assasinates the old king he grants him his final wish to leave a message for his brother to find the most important words a man can say 
everyone remembers it and the reason is preaty obvius , he wants Dalinar to follow the codes and find what it was he discovered 

But there was smt else , Gavilar asks szeth to " not let them take it" refering to a dark sphere that he had with him 

Szeth obeyes and hides it somewhere in Jah  Keved 

also an interesting fact that i discovered though it could be a coinsidence , Szeth's initial master who we meet in the third interlude  uses him as a way to make "new friends" 
and as a witness to verify some of his crazy and far fetched stories well one of his stories is about a spere that glows dark instead of light 
now we are certain that he hasnt seen the rock but could he had heard about it from Szeth?

one more note whatever it is it's existance is propably  not known to the diagram since they surly dont have it and taravangian hasn't questioned Szeth about it .

any way i am getting sidetracked any ideas on what the sphere actualy is  ?

[Tariniel he/him]

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BLIGHTSONG

How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren people would feel are corrupted. But that is corruption where the mixing of different shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, people are meaning the mixing of shards powers.

BLIGHTSONG

So is there a mixing of shards power with Nightblood?

BRANDON SANDERSON

*smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it.

BLIGHTSONG

Ok, uhhh, so something similar is happening with Gavilar's sphere, right?

BRANDON SANDERSON

*contemplative silence*, RAFO.

We can assume it is some sort of corrupted form of Investiture, likely Stormlight, as we are on Roshar after all. Don't know how much more we actually know, however. Brandon's been really closed up about the mystery sphere. One thing people have been calling it is the Voidsphere, as Brandon said we were close when asked if Odium had Invested it.

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Me: The sphere which Gavilar found that Szeth now has--I've been lead to believe that it either is or was heavily invested.

Brandon: Yes.

Me: Is it still heavily invested?

Brandon: Yes.

Me: So, it hasn't, like, gone dun or anything?

Brandon: No, it has not.

Me: And I'm going to take that to mean it wasn't invested with Stormlight--was it invested by Odium? 

Brandon: Something like that.

 

Edited October 14, 2016 by Tariniel

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, harambe said:

After Szeth assasinates the old king he grants him his final wish to leave a message for his brother to find the most important words a man can say 
everyone remembers it and the reason is preaty obvius , he wants Dalinar to follow the codes and find what it was he discovered

I'm not sure that's obvious. I think that is what Dalinar thought (and what BS wanted us to believe at the beginning of WoK); but I think Gavilar really wanted his brother to discover the Oaths.

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any way i am getting sidetracked any ideas on what the sphere actualy is  ?

Some of the Sphere threads: here, here and here.

 

[Oversleep]

Another one here. Secret History spoilers.

[marianmi]

So, my question is - why didn't it go dun? It's been quite a while probably since it was invested ... just how much is in there??? Can a sphere contain that much? (because with regular stormlight it would be dun pretty fast).

[Seeker861]

Well we know that spren can be captured in gems and there are some theories that the Unmade are spren. So maybe the sphere holds one of the Unmade and that's why it hasn't gone dun.

[marianmi]

1 minute ago, Seeker861 said:

Well we know that spren can be captured in gems and there are some theories that the Unmade are spren. So maybe the sphere holds one of the Unmade and that's why it hasn't gone dun.

Yup, that makes sense. Although I would assume that after some time (long time) the spren would naturally escape the gem, since nothing is a pure container.

[Seeker861]

1 minute ago, marianmi said:

Yup, that makes sense. Although I would assume that after some time (long time) the spren would naturally escape the gem, since nothing is a pure container.

They might naturally escape at some point, we'll have to wait and see what we learn about this from fabrials in future books. 

[Spoolofwhool]

4 hours ago, marianmi said:

So, my question is - why didn't it go dun? It's been quite a while probably since it was invested ... just how much is in there??? Can a sphere contain that much? (because with regular stormlight it would be dun pretty fast).

If it isn't stormlight, it probably wouldn't be bound by stormlight'ss nature of naturally dispersing. Not all investiture disperses naturally, and some forms can remain bound for a theoretically indefinite amount of time. 

Mistborn and Warbreaker Spoilers

Spoiler

Breath and Feruchemical charges remain in objects for a long time, near indefinitely. 

As the WoB seemed to imply, the sphere is invested with something that is more of Odium than stormlight, so it probably disperses at a far lower rate or not at all.

3 hours ago, marianmi said:

Yup, that makes sense. Although I would assume that after some time (long time) the spren would naturally escape the gem, since nothing is a pure container.

It might be possible to bind a spren for a long time, since they might not have the same nature of stormlight. We know fabrials have spren in their gems, which seems to imply that they can hold spren for awhile since constantly having to refill the gems with spren using whatever process is required would probably make fabrials a lot less useful. Truth be told, we don't know enough about fabrials to say for sure though.

 

[william_wallace]

 

10 hours ago, Tariniel said:

BLIGHTSONG

How does corrupted investiture work, like Nightblood?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oh, Nightblood. Again, this is a definition of what somebody feels is a corruption. For instance, there are spren people would feel are corrupted. But that is corruption where the mixing of different shards has changed things, and I think a lot of times when people say corruption, people are meaning the mixing of shards powers.

BLIGHTSONG

So is there a mixing of shards power with Nightblood?

BRANDON SANDERSON

*smirks* RAFO. That's the natural question, I'm glad you asked it.

I know this is off topic, but this quote about corruption and mixing of shard power makes me wonder if:

Spoilers for Stormlight Archive and Warbreaker

Spoiler

...if Nightblood was originally an experiment to awaken a (dead spren) shardblade. This could cause the mixture of shard investiture mentioned above.

 

 

 

[Spoolofwhool]

6 hours ago, william_wallace said:

 

I know this is off topic, but this quote about corruption and mixing of shard power makes me wonder if:

Spoilers for Stormlight Archive and Warbreaker

  Hide contents

...if Nightblood was originally an experiment to awaken a (dead spren) shardblade. This could cause the mixture of shard investiture mentioned above.

 

Only problem with that idea is that sprenblades are so invested they would practically resist any form of investiture.

[Blightsong he/him]

7 hours ago, william_wallace said:

 

I know this is off topic, but this quote about corruption and mixing of shard power makes me wonder if:

Spoilers for Stormlight Archive and Warbreaker

  Hide contents

...if Nightblood was originally an experiment to awaken a (dead spren) shardblade. This could cause the mixture of shard investiture mentioned above.

 

 

 

Nightblood is smaller than an average shardblade and made of a different material, so i doubt it.

[ARARITA he/him]

@william_wallace I've been saying that forever - i'm sure people are tired of seeing me refer to Nightblood as a Zombieblade };)

@Seeker861 I believe it could be an Unmade ..but ... I also wonder if it could be a large amount of Odium trapped / invested

 

[Patrick Star]

I'm still in (or head of, at this point?  no idea lol) the "unmade-in-a-box" camp.

For OP, since they probably haven't seen my posts on it, the idea's that Gavilar had Yelig-nar (Blightwind) trapped in the sphere, and the Parshendi finding out about it caused them to assassinate him, since we know they really didn't want anything to do with the unmade and (presumably, from Amaram's actions) that Gavilar  wanted to cause another desolation.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Blightsong said:

Nightblood is smaller than an average shardblade ...

I'm not sure that's true. Shardblades are sized for fighting Voidbringers and <Warbreaker Spoilers>

Spoiler

From the Wiki:  Nightblood is completely black, both blade and hilt. The blade is thin, long, and straight, with cutting edges on both sides. The cross guard is referred to as being hooked. Its overall size is noted as large; most likely, Nightblood was made to fit the proportions of a Returned...Based on Vasher and Vivenna's statements, Nightblood could be around 53 all the way to 60 inches long overall, with a blade of around 43-46 inches long.

BS said a Claymore is close to the right size - AMA

So, most likely, Nightblood is thinner than the average shardblade, but not necessarily smaller overall.

Edited October 15, 2016 by Treamayne

[Brgst13]

I'm of the idea that this sphere is one of the Dawnshards.  These are said to "bind any creature, voidish or mortal".  One such sphere is seen to bind Szeth to his oaths as a Truthless.  I dont see it as being invested directly by Odium, but rather having been used to bind an Unmade within the sphere.  Brandon has been very tight-lipped about both the Dawnshards and this sphere, and in my head these have connected.

[Seeker861]

5 minutes ago, Brgst13 said:

I'm of the idea that this sphere is one of the Dawnshards.  These are said to "bind any creature, voidish or mortal".  One such sphere is seen to bind Szeth to his oaths as a Truthless.  I dont see it as being invested directly by Odium, but rather having been used to bind an Unmade within the sphere.  Brandon has been very tight-lipped about both the Dawnshards and this sphere, and in my head these have connected.

I had never even considered this before. While I'm not sure that Szeth's Oathstone is a Dawnshard I could definitely see Gavilar's sphere being one. 

[Eki]

8 minutes ago, Brgst13 said:

I'm of the idea that this sphere is one of the Dawnshards.  These are said to "bind any creature, voidish or mortal".  One such sphere is seen to bind Szeth to his oaths as a Truthless.  I dont see it as being invested directly by Odium, but rather having been used to bind an Unmade within the sphere.  Brandon has been very tight-lipped about both the Dawnshards and this sphere, and in my head these have connected.

Hasn't Brandon RAFO'd whether Szeth's oathstone is magical or not? And you could definitely argue that Szeth broke his oath at the end of WoR, especially in the changed version.

[Spoolofwhool]

46 minutes ago, Brgst13 said:

I'm of the idea that this sphere is one of the Dawnshards.  These are said to "bind any creature, voidish or mortal".  One such sphere is seen to bind Szeth to his oaths as a Truthless.  I dont see it as being invested directly by Odium, but rather having been used to bind an Unmade within the sphere.  Brandon has been very tight-lipped about both the Dawnshards and this sphere, and in my head these have connected.

To be fair, we don't actually know whether the Oathstone is actually magically binding people, or whether he's just following his oath of being Truthless by personal honor. Nale, at the end of WoR seemed to imply that it was just a matter of personal honor, as he congratulated for saying true to his oaths and not wavering where others would've. Also, from Szeth's viewpoint in the prologue of WoK, he described it as his honor preventing him from intentionally failing his orders, not some external binding.

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Nin cocked his head. “You? Not worthy? I watched you destroy yourself in the name of order, watched you obey your personal code when others would have fled or crumbled. Szeth-son-Neturo, I watched you keep your word with perfection. This is a thing lost to most people—it is the only genuine beauty in the world. I doubt I have ever found a man more worthy of the Skybreakers than you.”

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Besides, perhaps a Shardbearer could defeat him, kill him and end his miserable life. His Lashings wouldn't work directly on someone in Shardplate, and the armor would enhance the man, strengthen him. Szeth's honor would not allow him to betray his mission or seek death. But if that death occurred, he would welcome it.

I'm of the opinion that the oathstone was just a stone used to mark whoever was his master, without any magical meaning. The oathstone is also described as being quite ordinary, unlike the black sphere. Also, since the oathstone is stone, it wouldn't be able to contain anything, in my opinion, as it appears that on Roshar, only gems can hold investiture or investiture entities.

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It was fairly ordinary, a simple piece of rock with a few quartz crystals set into it and a rusty vein of iron on one side.

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Gavilar coughed, hand quivering, reaching toward his chest and fumbling at a pocket. He pulled out a small crystalline sphere tied to a chain

 

[marianmi]

I agree with @Spoolofwhool above. Szeth's stone had nothing magical in it.

Also, the sphere is not a Dawnshard. Let's go our way back towards a Dawnshard: parshendi are upset that the spren don't bind with them, they feel betrayed by the gods (Honor and Cultivation). The only god that "accepts" them is Odium, with his forms of power - although it changes parshendi to voidbringers, a form in which they are controlled by Odium. Now, spren copied what Honor with with the Honorshards => a Honorblade can't bond with parshendi either. I have used here the term "Honorshard', because it helps understand what Dawnshards are: objects similar to Honorblades created probably by Adonalsium (probably swords, until proven wrong.- the assumption being just like spren copied Honor, Honor copied Adonalsium), which can bond with any creature - human or parshendi (unlike Honorblades, which can bond only with humans).

Unless that sphere can bond with humans and parshendi, and gives them access to some powers at least comparative to surges, it's not a Dawnshard. I think the important bit with that sphere is the black stormlight inside, not necessary the sphere itself, so I would incline to believe the sphere contains one of the Unmade. Gavilar probably showed the sphere to the parshendi, and, being a son of Honor, said something along the lines of: "Hey, here's one of your gods, I want to set him free because this will bring the Heralds back. You guys get your gods back, we get our Heralds back, it's a win-win!".

 

Edited October 16, 2016 by marianmi

[Spoolofwhool]

8 minutes ago, marianmi said:

Gavilar probably showed the sphere to the parshendi, and, being a son of Honor, said something along the lines of: "Hey, here's one of your gods, I want to set him free because this will bring the Heralds back. You guys get your gods back, we get our Heralds back, it's a win-win!".

With subtext being "With your gods back, you get to mentally enslaved again! Your race gets to repeat the events of millennia past which involved the systematic destruction of all civilization on this planet, eventually resulting in a large portion of your race losing their connection to spren, gaining slaveform, and becoming enslaved by humans! Really win-win!"

I can see why they would want to kill him.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[marianmi]

To be fair, he was not aware of the subtext  or he would have kept his mouth shut and survive the night  

[Spoolofwhool]

1 minute ago, marianmi said:

To be fair, he was not aware of the subtext  or he would have kept his mouth shut and survive the night  

That's just what he wants everyone to think. He probably had some inkling though that nothing good would come of it. Guess he never expected that the parshendi wouldn't want the True Desolation to come about. Who knew that people would actually try to avoid the bringing about of world-ending events.