Radiant Ideals

[drsabek]

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'm not sure if anything has been confirmed about it, but I've had some thoughts about what the ideals actually do. Naturally, they are designed to train the Knight to think and act like the Herald their class is based on, but obviously there is more to it. Based on the path that Kaladin takes, I propose the following effects for each ideal:

1st Ideal: Starts the nascent Radiant on their path, gives them access to breathing in Stormlight, and some ability to surgebind, although at a more instinctual level

2nd ideal: Directs the Radiant on the class they will take, gives them a boost to their surgebinding (in that they can do it more easily), and cements the bond to the point where diverting from their path can have drastic (but not necessarily permanent) repercussions for their spren.

3rd ideal: Solidifies the bond to the point where the spren can take physical presence (ie, allows them to become a Shardblade). In the case of a Windrunner, allows them to extend the bond to squires, evidenced by Lopin finally being able to breathe in Stormlight and begin healing his arm.

4th ideal: Allows the formation of Shardplate. I've read that it's been theorized that Shardplate comes about due to a lesser bond, and is unique to each Knight. It makes sense that Shardplate for a Radiant would be alive, and that modern Shardplate is dead, in the same way that Shardblades are. As evidence, I submit the following 2 points from Dalinar's visions:

When he sees Shardplate worn by a Radiant, it has a glow to it. When the Knights break the Oath, on the day of Recreance, the Shardplates lose their glow.

When he sees the Radiant save the farm, she is able to dismiss and replace her helmet with a thought, in the same way a Shardblade is summoned/dismissed.

5th ideal: This one I haven't been able to figure out, because we have yet to see anything that approaches it. Best guess I can give is that it finalizes their path, and maybe they get a diploma, or something

[cloudjumper]

I don't think there is a fifth ideal. I do think that your points make sense though, and are logical. I like it. 

[The One Who Connects]

27 minutes ago, cloudjumper said:

I don't think there is a fifth ideal. I do think that your points make sense though, and are logical. I like it. 

Our of genuine curiosity, why don't you think there's a 5th Ideal?

Edit: I should probably respond to the original post too.. oops

No argument about 1st and 2nd Ideal. I think (but don't remember for sure) that Brandon/somebody has said that each Ideal boosts the effectiveness of the Stormlight holding, and by extension their Surgebinding.

3rd Ideal granting Squires.. Yea pretty much. However, that isn't limited to Windrunners. Brandon has said that they are unique in how many and how strong they are, but he has said that other orders had Squires too.

4th Ideal: I am not debating the origin of Shardplate (that's for another thread), but I always kinda imagined that Shardplate would be 5th Ideal. It's my opinion against yours, so whatever

5th Ideal: However, if we assume that Plate is 4th... something good, something noticeable has to mark officially becoming a member of the Knights Radiant. I like Shard-Diploma

Edited September 23, 2016 by The One Who Connects
Edit Glitched out

[nervousnerd]

I don't know that the ideal structure is going to be so rigid for all Orders. I mean. in terms of shardblade we know that Shallan only had to say the first ideal (and no truths even from what I remember) to be able to draw pattern as her blade. This could mean that certain orders are more powerful than others initially.

I also agree that we also don't necessarily know how many ideals there are. I does seem like there aren't many but we don't really know.

[drsabek]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

3rd Ideal granting Squires.. Yea pretty much. However, that isn't limited to Windrunners. Brandon has said that they are unique in how many and how strong they are, but he has said that other orders had Squires too.

 

I mentioned the Windrunners, as they were the only ones with squires that came to mind, but yeah. Following my idea, all would be able to create squires at this ideal.

22 minutes ago, nervousnerd said:

I don't know that the ideal structure is going to be so rigid for all Orders. I mean. in terms of shardblade we know that Shallan only had to say the first ideal (and no truths even from what I remember) to be able to draw pattern as her blade. This could mean that certain orders are more powerful than others initially.

I also agree that we also don't necessarily know how many ideals there are. I does seem like there aren't many but we don't really know.

My thinking for Shallan is that she had reached the third ideal already, but, as her class deals so closely with truths/lies, had made herself forget that, while getting around the downside of the second ideal. She made herself forget so much else about that time, so it would make sense (at least to me). She would then have to re attain the ideal again, but her class is special in that sense.

Edited September 24, 2016 by drsabek

[cloudjumper]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Our of genuine curiosity, why don't you think there's a 5th Ideal?

I kind of just assumed there wasn't because they only mentioned four in the books. But I guess there could be a fifth one.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

30 minutes ago, cloudjumper said:

I kind of just assumed there wasn't because they only mentioned four in the books. But I guess there could be a fifth one.

I'm pretty sure they mention 4 additional oaths after the 1st ideal which is shared by all orders. 

I'm kind of in the camp where the 5th ideal is what will grant Shardplate, but I dont' know what would come with 4 then... if 3 gives the blade. Maybe 4 gives you a Ryshadium somehow!?  

[Argel]

I can't find it, but there is a post WoR WoB that says Shallan has progressed the furthest, which puts here at 4/5 given that we know Kaladin is at 3/5. 

But maybe combat orders get shardplate at 4 and support orders get it at 5? Or Lightweavers don't use shardplate.  

Remember when Shallan asks Adolin embarrassing details about wearing shardplate? Karma.....  

Edited September 24, 2016 by Argel

[ParadoxicalZen]

IIRC, there is a Wob that said not all members of an order used plate but it was an option if they wished to do so

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

2 hours ago, Argel said:

Remember when Shallan asks Adolin embarrassing details about wearing shardplate? Karma.....  

Except she'll be able to remove parts of her armor at will...

[Yata]

4 hours ago, Argel said:

I can't find it, but there is a post WoR WoB that says Shallan has progressed the furthest, which puts here at 4/5 given that we know Kaladin is at 3/5. 

I don't think we need to find the WoB because we read Shallan and her truth "I am scaried", "I killed my father" and "I killed my mother" This place her in the 4/5 of Complete Radiancy and she is among the well know KR the more complete.

@Green Hoodie Mistborn or she may simply Soulcast unwanted object into perfume 

EDIT: I find easly the WoB:

Quote

Q:  How many oaths can a Radiant swear?
A:  There is an upper-limit/threshold to the number of oaths a Radiant may make. By the end of WoR, Shallan is a step higher than Kaladin.

 

Edited September 24, 2016 by Yata

[Sand Master]

To clear up the confusion about the number of Ideals, in WoK Teft says this:

Quote

But the Immortal Words—these Ideals—guided everything they did. The four later Ideals were said to be different for every order of Radiants. But the first Ideal was the same for each of the ten: Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.

So from this we know that there are Five Ideals, and each order shares the same First Ideal.

[kenod]

IIRC, the Fifth Ideal allows the Radiant to hold Stormlight perfectly.

[marianmi]

nothing/nobody can hold stormlight perfectly, not even voidbringers.

I don't think having a "level" chart helps, as I think each type of spren have their own rules. E.g., assuming that Shallan is now L4 as is implied by Brandon, then:

- she was L3 for the majority of WoR

- she was L2 before her soulcasting in TWoK

This means that she used her shardblade to kill her mum at L2.

Edited September 24, 2016 by marianmi

[Yata]

24 minutes ago, marianmi said:

nothing/nobody can hold stormlight perfectly, not even voidbringers.

I don't think having a "level" chart helps, as I think each type of spren have their own rules. E.g., assuming that Shallan is now L4 as is implied by Brandon, then:

- she was L3 for the majority of WoR

- she was L2 before her soulcasting in TWoK

This means that she used her shardblade to kill her mum at L2.

Again Shallan is a weird case..She almost broke his Bond with Pattern and then She have to reforge from lower levels....As far as We know Kid Shallan may be L1,L2,L3,L4 or L5. She was more skilled with her Illusion than the modern Shallan as Pattern often remember to her, also if Shallan block herself to remember it (it's a weird to re-read Stormlight Archive and note how many time Patter actual say to her all the truth and She simply remain stuck for the whole "troublesome part")

And I have to say, at the Start of Twotk she was at L0 or L1 (if you remeber her First Truth was in the soulcasting of the blood)

Edited September 24, 2016 by Yata

[marianmi]

Something similar happened with kal & syl - syl was basically dead. But when she came back, kal did not restart at L1, he continued to L3.

So i think similarly Shallan was L2 at start of twok, could use shardblade, and could do illusions too, but as Brandon Sanderson says about perception - not being aware that she can do it => she won't do it. When she spoke the truth from TWoK, she did not restart, but continue her leveling. And since it's assumed she's now L4, it means that as a kid she spoke the first ideal + 1 truth.

My personal opinion is that cryptics give you shardblade after the 1st oath. Truths will improve on surgebindings. Because cryptics are weird lidat.

[maxal]

Kaladin starts back up at Level 3 because he re-swore the first three oaths. What we do not know is how many oaths were required to revive Syl: one, two, three. This is an unknown.

[Yata]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

Kaladin starts back up at Level 3 because he re-swore the first three oaths. What we do not know is how many oaths were required to revive Syl: one, two, three. This is an unknown.

I have the impression than Syl was already restored before the thrird Oath but the Stormfather restrain her to return to Kal and He have to spoke the third Oath to overcome Stormfather's will (but the scene isn't easy to read).

 

3 hours ago, marianmi said:

Something similar happened with kal & syl - syl was basically dead. But when she came back, kal did not restart at L1, he continued to L3.

So i think similarly Shallan was L2 at start of twok, could use shardblade, and could do illusions too, but as Brandon Sanderson says about perception - not being aware that she can do it => she won't do it. When she spoke the truth from TWoK, she did not restart, but continue her leveling. And since it's assumed she's now L4, it means that as a kid she spoke the first ideal + 1 truth.

My personal opinion is that cryptics give you shardblade after the 1st oath. Truths will improve on surgebindings. Because cryptics are weird lidat.

Actually Big Shallan never actually summons her blade before to spoke the "third Oath"( second truth) and She never uses any kind of Surges before her First Truth (Second Oath)...She thinks/believe She may summon a Shardblade but we don't know if She was actually able to do it (every time she try to summon her Blade in twok something stop her to continue).

We have proof she would never be able to make her first Soulcast if she didn't try to "call Pattern" as "call the shardblade" (She actually spoke the "I am afraid" in this specific scene who upgrade her to an L2 Radiant)

Quote

HAVOC

In WoK, Shallan is being chased by Cryptics. She begins to summon her Shardblade, stops and then Soulcasts for the first time. We know from WoR that it's her bond to Pattern, her Shardblade that allows her to Soulcast. So my question is, if Shallan had not begun to summon her Blade, would she have been able to Soulcast?

BRANDON SANDERSON

She would not have been able to. No one has ever asked me that before.