The Last Herald

[Morevna]

Talenelat seems to die at the end of WoK. But at the start of the book when its talking about the other herald, he implies that he's died several times. So what do you think: Is Talenelat dead as in dead-like dead as a rock, or dead as in hold on a min. while I die, I'll be right back. Cause It looked pretty permanent to me.

[Moogle]

Taln's still alive. His Honorblade didn't disappear. Wouldn't surprise me if he kicked the bucket sometime in the series (can't have a super knowledgeable person alive for too long), though.

 

Then again, isn't he getting a book of his own in the latter half of the series? Brandon can claim that dead people still get flashbacks all he wants, I suspect it's unlikely and serves to allow him to not spoil things by saying people get their own books. Flashbacks from dead characters just aren't a thing in most fantasy, and for good reason.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Moogle

[Bloodfalcon]

Taln's still alive. His Honorblade didn't disappear. Wouldn't surprise me if he kicked the bucket sometime in the series (can't have a super knowledgeable person alive for too long), though. Then again, isn't he getting a book of his own in the latter half of the series?

Yeah, he does get a book. I don't think he is dead either. I think Hoid being there will have something to do with saving him or maybe taking him away, like offworld. Either way, I think since he says the Oathpact is shattered, that means the Heralds can die-die again.

[Aonar]

He's never died in the first place. It specifically mentions that his Blade stayed behind after he collapsed, and we know from the prologue that Honourblades disappear when their wielder dies. 
 
Edit: I really need to learn to type faster. 
 
Edit #2

I think since he says the Oathpact is shattered, that means the Heralds can die-die again.

Can they? I always assumed that their immortality revolved around whatever powers Honor gave them, not their role in the Oathpact.

Edited January 22, 2014 by AonarFaileas

[Bloodfalcon]

Edit #2

Can they? I always assumed that their immortality revolved around whatever powers Honor gave them, not their role in the Oathpact.

It's always been my impression that their powers were tied into the Oathpact. Their decisions seemed to be the deciding factor on whether or not it remained. If part of it was to have them get tortured for centuries and then they stopped.... I just felt like it was a reward system for their pain. 

[Shardlet]

It does not appear to me that he died.  Recall that when a Herald dies, his/her Honorblade vanishes.  This contrasts directly with other generally known shardblades which appear or remain upon death.  The guards will likely assume at first that Taln is dead because his blade remained.  It will soon be discovered though that this is not the case here.  

[Argent]

Two remarks. 

1. I am pretty sure he is alive.
2. Every time - and I mean every time - Brandon has answered a question somehow related to the epilogue, he has used something along the lines of "someone who claims to be a Herald" instead of Taln's name. I still think that it is him we see materializing outside Kholinar, but I am slightly bothered by how Brandon never refers to him directly by name and/or title.

[vikorr]

Hi Argent - that is a really juicy remark. 

 

Wouldn't it be absolutely cool if Odium sent some imposter?

 

...it bothered me just a little that 'Taln' appeared. Heralds are meant to appear just before a desolation. And 'Taln' says it has come - but seriously - the Everstorm is like The Last Battle - it can't happen until the end of the book.

 

So what's the go?

[Bloodfalcon]

Hi Argent - that is a really juicy remark. 

 

Wouldn't it be absolutely cool if Odium sent some imposter?

 

...it bothered me just a little that 'Taln' appeared. Heralds are meant to appear just before a desolation. And 'Taln' says it has come - but seriously - the Everstorm is like The Last Battle - it can't happen until the end of the book.

 

So what's the go?

WOR Spoiler

But we also just learned that they come down and train new Knights Radiant before a Desolation. So there has to be some time in between.

[Morevna]

 

...it bothered me just a little that 'Taln' appeared. Heralds are meant to appear just before a desolation. And 'Taln' says it has come - but seriously - the Everstorm is like The Last Battle - it can't happen until the end of the book.

 

So what's the go?

That's what I thought when they overthrew the empire in the first book of Mist-born...

Also where do you guys get your information? Like that honor-blades vanish when their herald dies, and some of the specifics you seem to have on the oathpact? I've read most of Brandon's books (all of the cosmere) and yet every time I'm on this sight it feels like I'm missing something really important.

[Aleksiel]

Well, I guess it depends on what you think counts as 'just before' Desolation. A minute? A month? 62 days?  

 

@Morevna: the Honorblade vanishing is in the Prologue of WoK where it's stated that one missing sword in the circle of Blades indicates only one Herald has died.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Aleksiel

[skaa]

Two remarks.

• I am pretty sure he is alive.
• Every time - and I mean every time - Brandon has answered a question somehow related to the epilogue, he has used something along the lines of "someone who claims to be a Herald" instead of Taln's name. I still think that it is him we see materializing outside Kholinar, but I am slightly bothered by how Brandon never refers to him directly by name and/or title.

Note that Brandon never said "someone who claims to be Talenel", and that Hoid did not question his identity but merely described him as "confused". Maybe it's just Brandon's way of saying that Taln is still unaware of what his nine ex-partners have done. The title "Herald of the Almighty" no longer exists after the Oathpact was abandoned (and, of course, after the "Almighty" died), so Taln's belief that he is still a Herald is now inaccurate. Edited January 22, 2014 by skaa

[Argent]

That could be it. There is also the fact that we know at least one of the books is going / was supposed to feature Taln's flashbacks - which lends credibility to the belief that it was really him. And, as of a few days ago, we know that he is alive at the time Words of Radiance takes place.

[vikorr]

 Maybe it's just Brandon's way of saying that Taln is still unaware of what his nine ex-partners have done. 

 

One of the Chapter Headers has something like 'the burdens of 9 become mine. Oh almightly release me.' (that's close, not perfect) - said in a way that makes it almost certain it was Taln speaking. So he is aware that the others abandoned him.

 

The title "Herald of the Almighty" no longer exists after the Oathpact was abandoned (and, of course, after the "Almighty" died), so Taln's belief that he is still a Herald is now inaccurate. 

 

Why is it inaccurate? Everyone, even in these forums, still calls them Heralds. Taln still bears every hall mark of being a Herald. He still holds the oathpact in place, which was a function of the Heralds etc...and arguably returned when Heralds are supposed to return (if it is indeed Taln)

[Chlehrma]

That's what I thought when they overthrew the empire in the first book of Mist-born...

Also where do you guys get your information? Like that honor-blades vanish when their herald dies, and some of the specifics you seem to have on the oathpact? I've read most of Brandon's books (all of the cosmere) and yet every time I'm on this sight it feels like I'm missing something really important.

It's from the prologue to WoK. When the herald dies he goes to that other place. A place of torture, etc. also later in the prologue it mentions that of the herald was dead, then his blade would have gone as well. I forget the exact quote.

[Refero]

The dude' still alive. He probably fainted from exhaustion, after a stay in Damnation. I think he has a viewpoint chapter in WoR.

[skaa]

One of the Chapter Headers has something like 'the burdens of 9 become mine. Oh almightly release me.' (that's close, not perfect) - said in a way that makes it almost certain it was Taln speaking. So he is aware that the others abandoned him.

 

Ah, then I guess he does know about the other nine's betrayal, but perhaps not about Tanavast's death.

 

 

Why is it inaccurate? Everyone, even in these forums, still calls them Heralds. Taln still bears every hall mark of being a Herald. He still holds the oathpact in place, which was a function of the Heralds etc...and arguably returned when Heralds are supposed to return (if it is indeed Taln)

 

I was just speculating as to what Brandon meant by "someone who claims to be a Herald." Despite how Talenel retained "Heraldic" characteristics, and despite how people think the "Heralds of the Almighty" are still a thing, it would make sense that they are in fact no longer a thing because the one they are supposed to be heralds of is dead.

 

Besides, the idea that the Oathpact would survive even if only Taln is holding on to it was just speculation on Ishar's part:

 

"Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough..."

 

 

That sounds to me like an intelligent guess (or rather, Ishar desperately trying to justify his decision to betray his oath) more than a definitive statement. So, it might be possible that the Oathpact no longer exists, and that Taln just doesn't know it yet.

Edited January 23, 2014 by skaa

[marianmi]

* Taln is no longer a Herald of the Almighty since there is no more Almighty. So his heralding days are over.

 

* From the Purelake vision, we know spren have tried to emulate Honor in making the bonds. This strongly suggests that Heralds were bounded to Honor. Not (having) Splinters of Honor, but being bounded to the Shard somehow. The "somehow" should involve the Honorblades, since leaving them was the act of abandoning the Oathpact.

 

* Given the above, I wonder what was the effect of shattering Honor had on the heralds. Was this the reason they are not broken/twisted? Is this why Jezrien is now "drooling" - because the had a stronger connection to Honor (being the leader of the heralds) and thus lost more of himself then the shard got broken? Or maybe because Jezrien was, in fact, the one who went back for his blade, restored his connection to Honor, then the splintering occured and Jezrien's mind was splintered as well?

 

* I'm pretty sure the guy in Dalinar's visions is Tanavast, and not some Odium impersonation. And given that he tells Dalinar to make the KR, and says nothing about the Heralds leads me to believe the heralds becoming Heralds again is as probable as Honor being put back together.

[Bloodfalcon]

* Taln is no longer a Herald of the Almighty since there is no more Almighty. So his heralding days are over.

 

* From the Purelake vision, we know spren have tried to emulate Honor in making the bonds. This strongly suggests that Heralds were bounded to Honor. Not (having) Splinters of Honor, but being bounded to the Shard somehow. The "somehow" should involve the Honorblades, since leaving them was the act of abandoning the Oathpact.

 

* Given the above, I wonder what was the effect of shattering Honor had on the heralds. Was this the reason they are not broken/twisted? Is this why Jezrien is now "drooling" - because the had a stronger connection to Honor (being the leader of the heralds) and thus lost more of himself then the shard got broken? Or maybe because Jezrien was, in fact, the one who went back for his blade, restored his connection to Honor, then the splintering occured and Jezrien's mind was splintered as well?

 

* I'm pretty sure the guy in Dalinar's visions is Tanavast, and not some Odium impersonation. And given that he tells Dalinar to make the KR, and says nothing about the Heralds leads me to believe the heralds becoming Heralds again is as probable as Honor being put back together.

By your own point, there is a chance that his Heralding days are not over - the spren lost their KR, but now are rebonding. It even seems like spren that have previously had bonds are rebonding. Syl says that she has helped kill before in the way Kaladin did at the Tower. I don't think he is just a mortal man right now. He could be, and it would still fit, but I hope not. Someone needs to come train our Radiants!

Also no real confirmation that Jez is the Drooler^TM , correct? Even though that is certainly the fan favorite.

[Dros]

And given that he tells Dalinar to make the KR, and says nothing about the Heralds leads me to believe the heralds becoming Heralds again is as probable as Honor being put back together.

 

 

I've thought about that too. They must be broken much worse than we think if Honor doesn't even mention his Ace(s) in the Hole. I mean, I assume he knows they're still around.

[vikorr]

Taln is no longer a Herald of the Almighty since there is no more Almighty. So his heralding days are over.

 

According the the quotes, Brandon did not say 'Herald of the Almighty' but just 'Herald'...Taln is known by everyone as a Herald in name, and still serves a Heraldic Function & Heraldic curse (getting tortured every day), so I don't see how he could not be a Herald.

 

It'd be a hard slog to convince anyone that Taln being tortured for numerous centuries is not a Herald as soon as he arrives, Heralding the Everstorm (and if he hasn't arrived, he's still getting tortured)

Edited January 23, 2014 by vikorr

[Cheese Ninja]

Can anyone tell me for sure if the epilogue took place chronologically after all the other events in the book?  Or shortly after Hoid left the Shattered Plains for either the first (after talking to Dalinar) or second time (after talking to Kaladin)?  The timeline actually seems like it could match up best if it was just after Hoid spoke to Dalinar.

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Pretty sure we have no idea when exactly the epilogue occurs in relation to WoK and WoR at this point (please correct me if i'm wrong). For all we know, it still doesn't happen until after the events of WoR.

[Chlehrma]

* Taln is no longer a Herald of the Almighty since there is no more Almighty. So his heralding days are over.

* From the Purelake vision, we know spren have tried to emulate Honor in making the bonds. This strongly suggests that Heralds were bounded to Honor. Not (having) Splinters of Honor, but being bounded to the Shard somehow. The "somehow" should involve the Honorblades, since leaving them was the act of abandoning the Oathpact.

* Given the above, I wonder what was the effect of shattering Honor had on the heralds. Was this the reason they are not broken/twisted? Is this why Jezrien is now "drooling" - because the had a stronger connection to Honor (being the leader of the heralds) and thus lost more of himself then the shard got broken? Or maybe because Jezrien was, in fact, the one who went back for his blade, restored his connection to Honor, then the splintering occured and Jezrien's mind was splintered as well?

* I'm pretty sure the guy in Dalinar's visions is Tanavast, and not some Odium impersonation. And given that he tells Dalinar to make the KR, and says nothing about the Heralds leads me to believe the heralds becoming Heralds again is as probable as Honor being put back together.

1 & 3. He heralds the desolation since his boss is dead. Also, honors death does not seem to have impacted the immortality of the other nine, but their abandoning their oath does seem to have damaged their minds by inverting their core traits or perhaps all those years of torture finally broke their minds. Perhaps their abandoning their blades and breaking the oathpact is what actually killed honor or perhaps he died later and his death prompted the recreance or he recreance prompted his death.

2. The honor blades are probably fragments that Honor split off of himself prior to Odium killing him. Kind of like atium was the body of Ruin in physical form. My guess is that since Taln retained his blade, he has all the same attributes that he did when Tanavast lived. But if he honor shards come from honor, then I really want to know where shard blades come from. Anyway, my theory is that the heralds are splinters, but not of honor. We still do not know what the dawnshards were and maybe they are immortal because they are invested with them in some way.

4. Honor may not be able to see his heralds when they are in limbo between desolations. Also, it may be that he assumes they are gone because of the shattered oathpact. Who knows.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Chlehrma

[PeterAhlstrom]

Pretty sure we have no idea when exactly the epilogue occurs in relation to WoK and WoR at this point (please correct me if i'm wrong). For all we know, it still doesn't happen until after the events of WoR.

We don't know. It certainly doesn't happen the same night as chapter 75, because one night has a highstorm and one doesn't.