[BoM/SH] What Sovereign is up to

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

The timing doesn't work. Spook was clearly in the north while Kel was in the South.

the reason I don't think Kelsier used Hemalurgy to become a feruchemist is because using it opens him to outside influence. Which strikes me as something he'd want to avoid. I don't think the extra power would be worth giving anyone, even a friend, the ability to control him. The maximum amount of spikes I'd give him is two, leaving a margin for error. 

Which is why I think he did whatever the first feruchemists did to gain the power. Especially since he should know how they did it. 

(This is also tied to my theory that full feruchemists are not a natural part of the magic system, but were a hack like Mistborn.)

[The One Who Connects he/him]

17 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

the reason I don't think Kelsier used Hemalurgy to become a feruchemist is because using it opens him to outside influence. Which strikes me as something he'd want to avoid. I don't think the extra power would be worth giving anyone, even a friend, the ability to control him. The maximum amount of spikes I'd give him is two, leaving a margin for error. 

Marsh was able to resist Ruin decently well through sheer force of will when Ruin wasn't directly focused on him, right? Say you added Spikes stealing human emotional stability and fortitude. Sazed probably wouldn't focus directly on controlling Kel, and that could help him resist if he needed. Do I think that's what he did? No, but it's something that I feel like people have overlooked in the past because we don't have an in-world example.

Edited September 13, 2016 by The One Who Connects
Misquote

[Mason Wheeler]

25 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The timing doesn't work. Spook was clearly in the north while Kel was in the South.

the reason I don't think Kelsier used Hemalurgy to become a feruchemist is because using it opens him to outside influence. Which strikes me as something he'd want to avoid. I don't think the extra power would be worth giving anyone, even a friend, the ability to control him. The maximum amount of spikes I'd give him is two, leaving a margin for error. 

Which is why I think he did whatever the first feruchemists did to gain the power. Especially since he should know how they did it. 

(This is also tied to my theory that full feruchemists are not a natural part of the magic system, but were a hack like Mistborn.)

It would sure be nice to have some idea how that was done...

[Jazzy Kandra she/her]

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The timing doesn't work. Spook was clearly in the north while Kel was in the South.

the reason I don't think Kelsier used Hemalurgy to become a feruchemist is because using it opens him to outside influence. Which strikes me as something he'd want to avoid. I don't think the extra power would be worth giving anyone, even a friend, the ability to control him. The maximum amount of spikes I'd give him is two, leaving a margin for error. 

Which is why I think he did whatever the first feruchemists did to gain the power. Especially since he should know how they did it. 

(This is also tied to my theory that full feruchemists are not a natural part of the magic system, but were a hack like Mistborn.)

I think that it's likely he gained it the old fashion way (like the first feruchemists did, and presumably Hoid as well)... Not just because Kelsier gained more advanced knowledge of Investitures like Allomancy and Feruchemy (the LR received a great amount of knowledge on the arts and he had held the power for a shorter amount of time), but because it gives Brandon a chance to show us how that crap works first hand. In other words, it's just good writing. xD

Either way, it might be that Kelsier fell out with Sazed, or (and I think this is a bit more likely...) he hasn't been in world for awhile (read: for the period in which AoL, SoS, and BoM takes place in; my headcannon is that, as he's best at leading small, specialized teams, he is doing just that and looking into things on other worlds to help Scadrial and whatever. It's basically his job, and it keeps him occupied, which is important with a man like Kell...). They do have disagreements (probably on Hemalurgy), since Sazed sees it as 'pretty much always bad', and Kelsier is more likely to use it if he thinks it's necessary (for his plans--to protect Scadrial). That probably means that they have disagreements about "how things should be done" (just as Marsh and Harmony have in AoL), but I think that both have the same goal and are willing, still, to put their differences aside and work together...

[Nethseäar he/him]

On 9/13/2016 at 4:56 PM, Kandra-in-disguise said:

 or (and I think this is a bit more likely...) he hasn't been in world for awhile

Does Ruin's Hemalurgic Communication have a range? (We don't have evidence either way, I believe). Or maybe they have to keep 'radio silence' to avoid attracting the attention of other Shards?

[Wonko the Sane he/him]

1 minute ago, Nethseäar said:

Does Ruin's Hemalurgic Communication have a range? (We don't have evidence either way, I believe). Or maybe they have to keep 'radio silence' to avoid attracting the attention of other Shards?

He's not able to touch or appear to Kelsier once he leaves the planet in SH. It's not 100%, but I'd take that as evidence that he is incapable of acting off-world.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

5 minutes ago, Wonko the Sane said:

He's not able to touch or appear to Kelsier once he leaves the planet in SH. It's not 100%, but I'd take that as evidence that he is incapable of acting off-world.

On that same subject, the Ire felt fairly safe from Ruin in their fortress, so they believe some form of limit exists

[Yata he/him]

Well Preservation said he is too invested in "this area" and He can't reach points very far from "this area" and Ruin is bound to similar limitation

[Sarevok]

On 22-9-2016 at 5:40 PM, Wonko the Sane said:

He's not able to touch or appear to Kelsier once he leaves the planet in SH.

Wait, what? He left the planet? I thought the Elantrians were on Scadrial?

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Sarevok said:

Wait, what? He left the planet? I thought the Elantrians were on Scadrial?

Ire's Fortress is indeed still in Scadrial's Cognitive Realm...Just very far far away (probably in the middle of an Ocean or within the Scadrial's Cognitive Border)

Edited September 25, 2016 by Yata

[shadowwisp]

1 hour ago, Sarevok said:

Wait, what? He left the planet? I thought the Elantrians were on Scadrial?

Nah, I think the Elantrians were on the outskirts of the cognitive realm for Scadrial. Otherwise Ruin/Preservation would have interfered. 

 

I think there is one thing we can say for sure about what Kelsier is doing: recruiting a new crew. No matter what his goal his, Kelsier likes being surrounded by friends/crew-members. I don't think he will be content with just native Scadrials either. 

I can see Kelsier and Shai getting along very well. Both have a grudge against Hoid, come from similar professions, and have unique skill-sets that allows them to manipulate the spirit-web directly. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe Hemalurgy and Soulforging are the only known magic systems that can significantly and intentionally manipulate the spiritual aspect of an individual. Not to mention that Essence Marks and Medallions would make a powerful and versatile combo to "buff up" the rest of the crew. Just have to find a loophole with the limitations of Forging. 

Edited September 25, 2016 by shadowwisp

[The One Who Connects he/him]

7 minutes ago, Yata said:

Ire's Fortress is indeed still in Scadrial's Cognitive Realm...Just very far far away (probably in the middle of an Ocean or within the Scadrial's Cognitive Border)

I imagined it as something of an "airlock" type of thing. Like there's a no man's land, albeit a small one, serving as the borders between worlds within the Cognitive. Given Scadrial's Cognitive is mists and Roshar is spheres/beads, there would probably need to be something keeping them from mixing, although my knowledge of Cognitive Physics is sorely lacking..

3 minutes ago, shadowwisp said:

I can see Kelsier and Shai getting along very well. It all hinges on Shai not having an issue with Kel's nicknames   Correct me if I am wrong but I believe Hemalurgy and Soulforging are the only known magic systems that can significantly and intentionally manipulate the spiritual aspect of an individual. I believe that this is correct, however some systems (like AonDor) haven't really been fully explored Not to mention that Essence Marks and Medallions would make a powerful and versatile combo to "buff up" the rest of the crew. Just have to find a loophole with the limitations of Forging. Kelsier, Shai and Co. running an interplanetary thieving crew... that can't possibly go wrong.

[Yata he/him]

I always forgot to place the reference.

Quote

QUESTION

Okay, so when Kelsier is in the-- Which Realm is he in?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He’s in the Cognitive Realm.

QUESTION

Is he seeing people from other worlds or is he--

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, he meets some people who are traveling but Cognitive Realm is location dependent. He is on the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and the people he runs into there-- until he kind of travels off into space, which is where he finds the fortress.

QUESTION

So even though he’s tied to Scadrial could he go to the Cognitive Realm of other worlds?

BRANDON SANDERSON

He would have trouble getting to another planet, being a Cognitive shadow like he was.

QUESTION

So is there some particular thing that somebody would need to have to be able to move between the realms?

BRANDON SANDERSON

A body is helpful.

QUESTION

That does make sense.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Depends on what their ties are and things like that. Not always, but yeah.

Kel would have problem to leave Scadrial (like Ruin and Preservation)

Edited September 25, 2016 by Yata

[shadowwisp]

Quote

He is on the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and the people he runs into there-- until he kind of travels off into space, which is where he finds the fortress.

It sounds more like as a cognitive shadow, he would have issues getting to another planet but not "space/in between planets" where the fortress is located. Remember, the Elantrians were worried about Threnody's Shades/Cognitive Shadows attacking them. 

[Steelheart]

On 8/27/2016 at 10:27 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The Southerners see ALL metalborn as deities. I have a theory that this predates Kell's visit (think about it; occasionally someone goes through tremendous difficulty and returns with strange powers. Of COURSE they would think of these people as gods.) So Kelsier is just a very powerful God to the Southerners, but in and of itself that isn't especially special. Allik's quote indicates that to me.

What makes the Sovereign special beyond other gods is that A) he saved them and he united the different tribes under himself. He's their over king; the one person all the tribes follow. Allik and his people are clearly Germanic in inspiration; this wasn't unheard of among them. 

The Search for the Holy Grail is one of the Arthurian myths. A mythical weapon left behind and a king leaving this realm with the promise to return someday is another. And the Arthur of legend DID unify several disparate peoples, only for them to divide again on his (seeming?) death.

It also adds to the dichotomy of the two groups if my theory is correct. To the North Kelsier is THE major deity. He is known for tearing down a ruling class, and bringing down kings. To the South he is just a more powerful god, but he is their king and overlord. He united them and reformed their society as their ruler. I am VERY much looking forward to the theological upheavals on BOTH sides!!

Your first point reminded me of Nalthis. People who Return with powers are viewed as gods? Yeah, Kelsier might have visited once or twice....

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

I do think he may have visited, considering the presence of Nalthian immigrants on Scadrial. However, the above post had nothing to do with Nalthis. It has more to do with some theories on how some figures in Real Life were deified. (Basically, did something awesome, now you are a god/ demigod. Or we will rewrite history to justify. (Looking at you Virgil.)) There is nothing inherently divine about these people, as opposed to Nalthis where the Returned actually are Splinters of a divinity.

Also, the point was that the concept predates Kel's arrival. He didn't set the system in place; it was already there.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Kingsdaughter613

[Landis963 he/him]

19 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I do think he may have visited, considering the presence of Nalthian immigrants on Scadrial. However, the above post had nothing to do with Nalthis. It has more to do with some theories on how some figures in Real Life were deified. (Basically, did something awesome, now you are a god/ demigod. Or we will rewrite history to justify. (Looking at you Virgil.)) There is nothing inherently divine about these people, as opposed to Nalthis where the Returned actually are Splinters of a divinity.

Also, the point was that the concept predates Kel's arrival. He didn't set the system in place; it was already there.

Nalthian immigrants, plural?  I only know of one confirmed as such (Lady Michelle Yomen-Ostlin)

[Mason Wheeler]

37 minutes ago, Landis963 said:

Nalthian immigrants, plural?  I only know of one confirmed as such (Lady Michelle Yomen-Ostlin)

Where was that confirmed?

[Landis963 he/him]

22 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Where was that confirmed?

I thought firstRainbowRose said that her counterpart was Nalthian before moving to Scadrial to be with Joshin.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

That's what I meant. Typing on the iPhone tends to mess stuff up. However, there have been Scadrians on Nalthis too. (At least one anyway...)