What form do parshendi start with?

[cloudjumper]

So...what form are parshendi born with? It seems likely that they're born in slaveform, because you can't bond with a spren as an embryo (probably), but who knows? Any thoughts, anyone?

[Elenion]

6 minutes ago, cloudjumper said:

So...what form are parshendi born with? It seems likely that they're born in slaveform, because you can't bond with a spren as an embryo (probably), but who knows? Any thoughts, anyone?

I honestly have no idea! Other ideas I could see happening are dullform, because it was mentioned as the form that they get if they don't get a special form (in one of the excerpts of the song) or mateform, since both of the parents were most likely in mateform when the new parshendi was conceived.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Elenion
grammar

[Yata]

The Listener quite surelly start with no form (slave form) and then the parents educate him/her to change form (the more easy to get, probably the dull form)

[Three1415]

On that note, does anyone know what spren warform/nimbleform/dullform etc. are bonded with? We've only actually seen the bonding process for stormform, so it would be interesting to know what non-voidspren are used normally.

[Killik]

Perhaps they are born with whatever form the mother is in at time of birth.  As Elenion said this is probably mate form, but we dont know that she has to stay in this form throughout pregnancy.  Maybe you could have a newborn little Voidbringer running around!

I feel like dullform would fit well with a rainspren.  Windspren for nimbleform.  I can't think of one we've seen that would fit with warform, gloryspren?

[Jondesu]

I find it intriguing that in all the glimpses we got of the Parshendi culture, we never saw a child. Even when the entire nation was gathered to divide into the ones who would and wouldn't agree to take Stormform.  There were 20,000 Parshendi there. Older ones were mentioned, like Eshonai's mother. Not a single mention of a child (even though we saw Mateform Parshendi "romping" around).  Where are the children?

jW

[Elenion]

2 hours ago, Killik said:

Perhaps they are born with whatever form the mother is in at time of birth.  As Elenion said this is probably mate form, but we dont know that she has to stay in this form throughout pregnancy.  Maybe you could have a newborn little Voidbringer running around!

I feel like dullform would fit well with a rainspren.  Windspren for nimbleform.  I can't think of one we've seen that would fit with warform, gloryspren?

If it was based on the mother's form, I think it would be form at conception instead of birth, since the mother bonding with a spren probably wouldn't change the form of the child. It also appears that Parshendi give birth in mateform, seeing as Eshonai mentioned that she spent a year in it when she wanted a child. This can also help us estimate the gestation period of a Parshendi fetus, if anyone is concerned about that.

[Erklitt]

I think Slaveform most likely, simply because every other form requires a spren. So either at conception or at birth (whenever the form is determined), there would have to be a 'fitting' spren around. And so far our information is that spren-bonding only happens during highstorms.

Edit: @Jondesu We don't see them, but there must have been children in Narak. When Rlain and Dalinar talk after meeting again on the Shattered Plains, Rlain says:

Quote

I got close enough to see an army, tens of thousands. But surely they left some in other forms. The elderly? The young? Who watches our children?

WoR ch. 79 Toward th Center p. 958 kindle edition

Earlier Eshonai mentions children, too:

Quote

"This is why we need as many of us in stormform as possible", Eshonai said. "If we miss this opportunity, our children will sing us songs of Cursing, assuming they even live long enough to do so. [...]"

WoR Interlude 11 New Rhythms p. 712 kindle edition

That sounds like children currently do live in the camp.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Erklitt

[Jondesu]

1 hour ago, Erklitt said:

I think Slaveform most likely, simply because every other form requires a spren. So either at conception or at birth (whenever the form is determined), there would have to be a 'fitting' spren around. And so far our information is that spren-bonding only happens during highstorms.

Edit: @Jondesu We don't see them, but there must have been children in Narak. When Rlain and Dalinar talk after meeting again on the Shattered Plains, Rlain says:

Earlier Eshonai mentions children, too:

That sounds like children currently do live in the camp.

Thanks, I thought I remembered some reference to them.  I just wonder if Brandon chose not to show them to us for a reason, or if it merely wasn't something he felt he needed to include yet.

jW

[+hwiles]

It does seem super weird that no Parshendi child ever shows up on screen.  That is, until you remember how few human children appeared on screen.  Considering that Eshonai has a mother, I agree that it's definitely a safe bet that Parshendi have some manner of children.  Whether they hatch from eggs, are born as infants, or sprout off of the back of an adult Parshendi partially grown is, while an interesting question, ultimately of little consequence.

I'm gonna go ahead and suggest that maybe Parshendi can only give birth in a highstorm, which would solve the formless baby problem.  The Parshendi seemed pretty disturbed when they first met Parshmen, so I'm inclined to think that their babies don't plop out in Slave form.

[Erklitt]

15 minutes ago, hwiles said:

I'm gonna go ahead and suggest that maybe Parshendi can only give birth in a highstorm, which would solve the formless baby problem.  The Parshendi seemed pretty disturbed when they first met Parshmen, so I'm inclined to think that their babies don't plop out in Slave form.

Nice idea about the highstorm births. And every Parshendi couple takes great care in timing their offspring not to be ready for birth right at the beginning of the weeping...

However, the Parshendi's wondering about the Parshmen might be because they've never seen an adult in slaveform. 

Yet when I think about it, it's really hard to imagine that Parshendi children are as dull and slow of wit as slaveform. Maybe the word slaveform isn't applicable to them? Maybe they don't have a spren and don't need one until they reach a certain age.

When Eshonai visits her mother the mother seems to be stuck in some moment in the past and talks about 'your sister's first [?]'. I don't have the book about me right now to check the word she uses, but it clearly refers to her going out in a highstorm to find or change her form for the first time. It's evidently a ritual, a rite of passage. So maybe what goes before is simply not comparable to adult forms.

[+hwiles]

4 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

Nice idea about the highstorm births. And every Parshendi couple takes great care in timing their offspring not to be ready for birth right at the beginning of the weeping...

However, the Parshendi's wondering about the Parshmen might be because they've never seen an adult in slaveform. 

Yet when I think about it, it's really hard to imagine that Parshendi children are as dull and slow of wit as slaveform. Maybe the word slaveform isn't applicable to them? Maybe they don't have a spren and don't need one until they reach a certain age.

When Eshonai visits her mother the mother seems to be stuck in some moment in the past and talks about 'your sister's first [?]'. I don't have the book about me right now to check the word she uses, but it clearly refers to her going out in a highstorm to find or change her form for the first time. It's evidently a ritual, a rite of passage. So maybe what goes before is simply not comparable to adult forms.

You have an uncanny memory to recall such a detail.  You are of course, absolutely correct (Ebooks make looking things up much easier btw).

Quote

"Child, have you seen your sister?  It is the day of her first transformation!  We need to prepare her." - Eshonai's mom (not clear if she is talking about Venli or Eshonai)

She goes on to say later that they'll need to take the girl out into a storm, though by this point she's starting to get pretty confused and mixed up.

So yeah...I really don't know what to think then.  Weird.  We didn't see any young Parshmen either.  Maybe baby Parshendi/Parshmen are some messed up larva or something, who knows?  It'd strike me as weird if their children came out in slave form, though I'd say anything is possible at this point...

[Erklitt]

7 hours ago, hwiles said:

You have an uncanny memory to recall such a detail.  You are of course, absolutely correct (Ebooks make looking things up much easier btw).

So yeah...I really don't know what to think then.  Weird.  We didn't see any young Parshmen either.  Maybe baby Parshendi/Parshmen are some messed up larva or something, who knows?  It'd strike me as weird if their children came out in slave form, though I'd say anything is possible at this point...

Nothing uncanny about it  - I had scanned through that chapter for my previous post on this thread . And yes: yay for ebooks. The more accurate phrasing would have been: I don't have my kindle about me right now. Without it, I'm sure I would post far fewer quotes here, because they would be so much more trouble to find.

About seeing no young Parshmen, I just got a horrible idea. Maybe there are breeding farms somewhere, sequestered away from sensitive eyes. Given a parshman's worth, it would be a very lucrative trade.

 

[+hwiles]

11 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

About seeing no young Parshmen, I just got a horrible idea. Maybe there are breeding farms somewhere, sequestered away from sensitive eyes. Given a parshman's worth, it would be a very lucrative trade.

 

That's an excellent point.  I've thought about that a little myself, but I actually don't recall ever seeing anyone post here about it.  Considering how obedient and docile Parshmen are, I'd think that breeding them would be at least as easy as breeding livestock.  I'm going to just go ahead and assume that agriculture on Roshar is too complicated to be performed by Parshmen in an economically responsible way, otherwise their whole use of slaves doesn't make much sense to me...

But even so, the important questions are: where the heck are all these Parshmen coming from, and why aren't there tremendously more of them?  From a capitalist standpoint, as long as you can train a Parshman to do enough work to offset the cost of feeding, housing, and cleaning up after itself it would probably, in the long run, make sense to buy one.  Considering they never offer back-sass or revolt, I'd think every family in Roshar would want a Parshman or two to help around the house, weed gardens, churn butter, wash clothes, or whatever.  It'd be weird if no Alethi had ever had the idea to try enterprising on this largely untapped market.

So like...what gives?  Why is the supply of Parshmen low enough to keep their price higher than ordinary slaves?

[Argel]

Presuably they need to have schools to teach them e.g. Alethi, how to do various tasks in the correct way, etc. as well. A breeding farm may just not work well. 

[Erklitt]

@Argel @hwiles Actually I think a breeding farm does work, but what Argel describes is a big part of the reason for the high prices. A criminal or debtor can be sold just as they are without further investment, while Parshmen are a product of 'intensive cultivation'. It's in the breeders' own interest not to flood the market with too high numbers, which would destroy the prices. And the reason why not everyone owns a Parshman is the same as why not everyone with a lawn in our world owns a riding mower: the upkeep wouldn't be too expensive for most people, they are just too expensive to buy, and as long as your lawn is small enough that you can handle it without one... . On second thought, even the upkeep of a Parshman is not quite so trivial: they need a place to sleep at least, and I don't think you want them in your own bedroom. Just remember how small the house of Kal's parents was.

And what's the alternative? The Parshmen's owners doing their own breeding, which is 1) quite possible and 2) almost the same thing, just on a smaller scale. And they would have the trouble of having to 'educate' them. That's actually much easier to do on a farm. The one thing that I'm pretty sure won't happen is Parshmen choosing a partner and deciding to have children all by themselves.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Erklitt

[+hwiles]

1 hour ago, Erklitt said:

@Argel @hwiles Actually I think a breeding farm does work, but what Argel describes is a big part of the reason for the high prices. A criminal or debtor can be sold just as they are without further investment, while Parshmen are a product of 'intensive cultivation'. It's in the breeders' own interest not to flood the market with too high numbers, which would destroy the prices. And the reason why not everyone owns a Parshman is the same as why not everyone with a lawn in our world owns a riding mower: the upkeep wouldn't be too expensive for most people, they are just too expensive to buy, and as long as your lawn is small enough that you can handle it without one... . On second thought, even the upkeep of a Parshman is not quite so trivial: they need a place to sleep at least, and I don't think you want them in your own bedroom. Just remember how small the house of Kal's parents was.

And what's the alternative? The Parshmen's owners doing their own breeding, which is 1) quite possible and 2) almost the same thing, just on a smaller scale. And they would have the trouble of having to 'educate' them. That's actually much easier to do on a farm. The one thing that I'm pretty sure won't happen is Parshmen choosing a partner and deciding to have children all by themselves.

Just to be clear, I definitely don't support the idea of slave labor...That said, the thing that makes slave labor so expensive and unappealing in general is that:

1) slaves tend to harbor resentment for their owners

2) slaves generally don't do very good work unless they're restricted to very unskilled jobs (lack of motivation, not intelligence)

3) slaves revolt and kill their owners occasionally

Since 1) and 2) don't apply to Parshmen, they're really quite perfect slaves.  "Flooding the market" with Parshmen would drive prices down (supply and demand and what not).  This wouldn't ruin the profits of selling Parshmen though, it would just make small-scale breeding operations economically unwise.  Instead, sprawling breeding farms, overseen by a small number of large stake-holders would be the most efficient solution, which would work well with Alethkar's top-heavy feudal-esque society.  However...the price of a Parshman couldn't fall below a certain limiting value, (IE: ~16 years of food, water, and utilities + a markup determined by market dynamics probably on the order of 25% - 100%).

That's where I made my mistake earlier.  The minimum cost of a Parshman the market could sustain would probably still be pretty high (on the order of an entry-level car).  Considering the frequency of wars and power shifts, I'd imagine sellers would insist on being paid in cash (er...spheres) rather than credit, which would disqualify pretty much all members of the middle class and lower.  I still feel like Parshmen shouldn't be more expensive than human slaves...but whatever, they are and that's that.

Thanks for the contribution and making me think about it a little harder @Erklitt

[thegatorgirl00]

Perhaps the lighteyes want to keep the cost of Parshmen high to prevent them from being widely used by darkeyes. 

 

1 hour ago, hwiles said:

 I still feel like Parshmen shouldn't be more expensive than human slaves...but whatever, they are and that's that.

Where was it stated that Parshmen are more expensive than human slaves? 

[CaptainRyan]

2 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

Where was it stated that Parshmen are more expensive than human slaves? 

When Rlain is brought to Bridge 4, Kaladin questions why as Parshmen are, usually, more expensive than human labor.

[Stormgate]

Human slaves disobey, run away, sometimes/often require intense supervision, and require a wage. A pittance wage, but a wage. Parshmen are obedient, subservient, don't run away, and only need food, water, and shelter. Basically like Szeth without superpowers, the ability to communicate, Shardblade, etc. so it's logical that better servants would be more expensive.

[Blackhoof]

The questions of Parshendi reproduction (and Parhsmen) is quite interesting, I think. We need to know more.

[Zeldan]

Based on what occurs with humans in SA, they are treated more as indentured servants, which is basically someone who fell into debt, or committed a crime, and is now paying their debt through labor.

The Parshmen on the other hand, are like true slaves, who have been brought up since birth for one purpose. this process of raising Parshmen from birth to an age deemed suitable for sale would be quite costly, as they would generate no value for an exceptional amount of time, during which they must be fed and clothed, looked after, and trained to do everyday chores. It is only natural for a slave raised in this fashion to cost more from a slaver's perspective.

[cadebengert]

Can we just mention how awesome it would be to raise a kid in slaveform? They might actually listen!

[Jofwu]

It seems very odd to me that they would be born in slaveform. That just feels so wrong... The way Eshonai talks, slaveform is really the absence of a form. It's an absence of something that makes them who they are. But I guess it's the only explanation for how Parshmen babies aren't born into dullform? So why not a more complicated solution? I imagine that babies of "normal" Parshendi come out in dullform. But if one parent (or maybe both) was slaveform then they have a slaveform baby. It makes sense to me that children born to parents with "forms" would receive a "form" of their own. But children born to parents without "form" would naturally receive no "form". It's almost like the Parshendi have a soul (to use the word loosely) and thus are able to pass on souls to their children. But the Parshmen, with no soul of their own, have nothing to give.

As for the "where are the listener children" discussion... I think we don't see any because we're seeing through the eyes of Eshonai. They probably keep all of the kids in a certain place (for safety, teaching, etc.). And Eshonai doesn't come across as the kind of person who cares to take much note of children, even if she sees some of them around. Especially after she's in stormform, which is most of the book.

Edited September 15, 2016 by jofwu

[Yata]

43 minutes ago, jofwu said:

It seems very odd to me that they would be born in slaveform. That just feels so wrong... The way Eshonai talks, slaveform is really the absence of a form. It's an absence of something that makes them who they are. But I guess it's the only explanation for how Parshmen babies aren't born into dullform? So why not a more complicated solution? I imagine that babies of "normal" Parshendi come out in dullform. But if one parent (or maybe both) was slaveform then they have a slaveform baby. It makes sense to me that children born to parents with "forms" would receive a "form" of their own. But children born to parents without "form" would naturally receive no "form". It's almost like the Parshendi have a soul (to use the word loosely) and thus are able to pass on souls to their children. But the Parshmen, with no soul of their own, have nothing to give.

As for the "where are the listener children" discussion... I think we don't see any because we're seeing through the eyes of Eshonai. They probably keep all of the kids in a certain place (for safety, teaching, etc.). And Eshonai doesn't come across as the kind of person who cares to take much note of children, even if she sees some of them around. Especially after she's in stormform, which is most of the book.

I may understand your point....but actually where does the baby-Listener get the spren to be in dullform ?