Knight Radiant opposite orders

[Farnsworth]

So, I was looking at my screensaver for about 30 minutes, trying to see if I could come up with any big revelations. This actually makes more sense than it sounds like, because my screensaver is image from WoR with all the orders from the knights radiant. Here are a few things I've realized/ wondered.

1: Syl really doesn't like pattern when she first sees him. Kaladin is very focused on honor, whereas Shallan is a member of the Ghostbloods. If you look at the image, they are opposite each other. It could be that their orders are opposite. This would make sense, because perfect honor is not a good attribute, neither is no honor. This way the orders balance each other out. 

2: The Truthwatchers and the Bondsmiths are in the center. The Bondsmiths bring people together, so I doubt that they would have an opposite order. The Truthwatchers, if they are all similar to Renairin, seem pretty benign, so I doubt that they would have an opposite order either.

3: This image seems to be carved on stone. Does it actually exist? Will anybody eventually find it?

[Khyrindor]

1. I've thought about this a bit as well, and it makes sense.

2. There have been theories that Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers are like the god orders, and that each side is the closest to Honor and Cultivation respectively. 

3. I believe that it has been seen on page a few times; they call it the double eye of the Almighty, and it's described as an hour glass shape. If I recall correctly, it is seen in the Pallenium in Kharbranth and in Kholinar Palace in an Interlude. I may be wrong. 

[Farnsworth]

While we're on this topic, what are the dragon things that are behind the image?

This is the picture I'm looking at:

[WeiryWriter]

4 minutes ago, Figberts said:

While we're on this topic, what are the dragon things that are behind the image?

Those are larkin.

[Farnsworth]

What's a larkin?

[Stormgate]

We don't know much, but they are from the Reshi Isles, one is given to a potential proto-Radiant (I'm guessing here), and when Nale attempts to kill Lift, he uses a larkin to drain Lift of Stormlight. We might know a bit more, but I don't off the top of my head.

[maxal]

1 hour ago, Khyrindor said:

2. There have been theories that Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers are like the god orders, and that each side is the closest to Honor and Cultivation respectively. 

Actually, Brandon did state the closest to Honor was the Honorspren and thus the Windrunners and the closest to Cultivation are Wyndle and the Edgedancers.

[Khyrindor]

 

39 minutes ago, maxal said:

Actually, Brandon did state the closest to Honor was the Honorspren and thus the Windrunners and the closest to Cultivation are Wyndle and the Edgedancers.

Well, if the man himself said so, it must be true. 

[FourthBridge]

Something to support your theory is stated on page 70, of WoR. Jasnah and Shallan are speaking about Pattern. Jasnah says that they are Cryptics. "There is a complex sort of conflict between them and the honorspren." It goes on to state that it is just the nature of the spren. Since spren are attracted to their categorical patrons, that would mean that Kaladin and Shallan are also different in the same ways. On the next page of course, they mentioned how the Almighty was created by humans to represent the emotion they saw in spren. It seems like Brandon is trying to that same theory.

[Erklitt]

9 hours ago, Figberts said:

3: This image seems to be carved on stone. Does it actually exist? Will anybody eventually find it?

They know at least a simplified version, and understand what it means (and with 'they' I mean interested scholars, like Jasnah):

Quote

[Jasnah] flipped through one of her books, stopping at an illustration. Shallan had seen it before; it was as ancient as Vorinism. Ten spheres connected by lines forming a shape like an hourglass on its side. Two of the spheres at the center looked almost like pupils. The double eye of the Almighty.
"Ten essences," Jasnah said softly. She ran her fingers along the page. Ten Surges. Ten orders. [...]"

WoR ch. 6 p 109 kindle edition

There's a rather militaristic version under the archway of chapter headings with non-standard POVs, and I think I've seen an even simpler version somewhere  (just spheres and lines), but I can't remember where. I would expect them to find the original at Urithiru , it certainly wasn't a big secret.

What I find interesting is that 4 orders have 4 connections to other orders, while the rest have only three. Assuming the lines between the orders mean anything. Each order has a connection to those next to it and to the one opposite; Windrunners, Edgedancers, Lightweavers and Stonewardens have an additional connction 'three orders up / down'.

So: if Windrunners and Edgedancers are the orders closest to the two 'benevolent' shards, what about the other two? What is the balance here? I don't think we can fit Odium in here, the KR were created to fight him (or rather his desolations). Maybe the  right hand side is the 'shard-centered' side, the left hand one the 'human-centered'? Truthwatchers and Bondsmiths stand in the middle as 'liaison' - for the Bondsmiths at least a very fitting position. And judging from Renarin's character the same could be true for the Truthwatchers. Windrunners and Edgedancers somehow combine and work together as the 'shardic backbone' of the KR, Lightwatchers and Stonewardens as the 'human backbone'? Now it gets pretty speculative I admit...

Edit: what I just dubbed the 'human side' also contains the three orders that have a special connection to Shadesmar. Vague ideas why they are somehow 'opposed' to the shardic side: Humans dabbling with the Cognitive Realm directly... spren created by the workings of the human mind (the Cryptics' 'mathematical identity' - Patterns true name would be numbers - would fit that)...

Edit2: Oh, and hello @FourthBridge, welcome to the Shard!

Edited July 26, 2016 by Erklitt

[Yata]

There is a WoB somewhere that talk of Adesion and Progression like GodSurge.

Or to be more precise, someone ask Brandon if there is that can be similar to Godmetal in the Surgebinding. And he replied with those two surges, but just in the meaning to be more closely linked to Honor (Adesion) and Cultivation (Progression) than the others surges.

Of course it's to note that both Windrunner and Bondsmith (the one strictly associated to Honor) have Adesion Surge and both the Edgedancer and Truthwatcher have the Progression Surge

[Ari]

11 hours ago, Khyrindor said:

 

Well, if the man himself said so, it must be true. 

Hah. Actually what Brandon said was that Syl would see herself as the closest to Honour. Sort of the same way some people in the USA engage in debates as to who's a "real American" while others say "we're all Americans." The Edgedancers' Spren are in a similar position with regards to Cultivation.

[Erklitt]

So, with all this second hand information what Brandon did or did not say, I searched for various related catchwords. This is what I came up with:

Quote

Khyrindor: Are there Surges that could be considered as God Surges, like the God metals on Scadrial?
Brandon Sanderson (Paraphrased): Yes.
Khyrindor: Progression and Adhesion, perhaps?
Brandon Sanderson (Paraphrased) : No, but they could be considered as such.

[Later:]

Q: The "God Surges" you mentioned recently, are they a part of the WoK frontsheet?
Brandon Sanderson:   All I said regarding this was to tell a fan that it was possible to make an analogy between the god metals on Scadrial and certain powers on Roshar. However, these are not a codified part of the magic system.

Quote

ZAS : Nohadon mentioned that "All the spren aren’t as discerning as honorspren."

BRANDON SANDERSON: So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

Quote

Question: Is Cultivation's Shardholder still alive.

Brandon Sanderson: Good question, what do you think?

Question: I want to say, but that's based on my knowledge before I read Lift's interlude from Words of Radiance. Now I am leaning towards no. Based on that interlude, it looks like spren have essence from both Honor and Cultivation. It's almost like they exist in a spectrum, on one end of which is Honor, and on the other - Cultivation; so there are spren that are, for the lack of better example, 90% Honor and 10% Cultivation, and there are spren that are 15% Honor and 85% Cultivation.

Brandon Sanderson: That's a very astute observation!

Question: And since we know that Honor is Splintered, then it might be the case that Cultivation is also Splintered, and their Splinters form the spren.

Footnote: In a prior signing report it was revealed that Cultivation's shardholder is indeed alive.

Quote

Question: Syl identifies herself as an honorspren.

Brandon Sanderson: Yes.

Question: Would Wyndle identify himself as a cultivation spren? [Pause]

Brandon Sanderson: Yes. I think you could say that he would.

Question: By the same logic, would a voidspren follow the same naming convention, so to speak?

Brandon Sanderson: Here's the thing. Certain spren have decided that they are the most pure forms of honor, or that they are the most pure form of whatever, where all of them are kind of... Syl's got a good argument for what she is. But there are other spren that would be like "well, I'm an honorspren too, I'm just this variety of honorspren." Does that make sense? Syl's like "I'm an American!" and I'm like "I'm an Alaskan!" Yes, you're an American. I'm an American too. It's kind of similar to that. But she would be the most pure... many would view her as the purest form. Wyndle would view himself as the purest form of a cultivation spren.

That's really not much to go by, and throws my earlier speculations right off again. But maybe it will help the discussion.

 

Edited July 26, 2016 by Erklitt

[goody153]

I thought that Skybreakers and the Windrunners are the one who actually have a rivalry (i thought i've seen it from the epigraph mentioning this) even though ironically it seems like their two head heralds seem fine with each other (Nale even seems to showcase respect to Jezrein assuming he stops drooling lol). Well i guess it makes sense since Skybreakers can probably be vengeful (according to Syl's reaction with kaladin wanting justice) and Windrunners are like standard protagonist of generic non-dark fantasy's that "doing right thing even if it means sparing whoever".

[maxal]

10 hours ago, goody153 said:

I thought that Skybreakers and the Windrunners are the one who actually have a rivalry (i thought i've seen it from the epigraph mentioning this) even though ironically it seems like their two head heralds seem fine with each other (Nale even seems to showcase respect to Jezrein assuming he stops drooling lol). Well i guess it makes sense since Skybreakers can probably be vengeful (according to Syl's reaction with kaladin wanting justice) and Windrunners are like standard protagonist of generic non-dark fantasy's that "doing right thing even if it means sparing whoever".

I think it has more to do with the Skybreaker wanting to uphold the written law while the Windrunners are more concerned with honor and protection. I can easily imagine several situations where the Skybreakers would demand punishment for an individual the Windrunners want to protect.

People always hate lawyers: it isn't hard to figure out why the Skybreakers would have been at odds with most orders. 

[Three1415]

Can someone find the WoB that says the Edgedancers and the Windrunners are the 'god orders?' I haven't been able to locate it myself, and given the Bondsmith's and the Truthwatcher's central position in the diagram, and the fact that the Bondsmiths at least bond with the remainder of Honor himself, I find it unlikely the first two are the god orders, and would like to see confirmation...

[Assassin in Burgundy]

25 minutes ago, Three1415 said:

Can someone find the WoB that says the Edgedancers and the Windrunners are the 'god orders?' I haven't been able to locate it myself, and given the Bondsmith's and the Truthwatcher's central position in the diagram, and the fact that the Bondsmiths at least bond with the remainder of Honor himself, I find it unlikely the first two are the god orders, and would like to see confirmation...

Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers are kinda the leaders of the Radiants, and Bondsmiths seem also kinda "Honor shardish," but windrunners still beat them on that account.

[galendo]

Huh.  I just noticed, looking at that image of the orders and surges, that all of the symbols for the orders have wing-looking things going off to either side.  This might not mean anything, but it's a rather odd coincidence.  Note that this isn't the case for the surges.

Here's the image again for easy reference:

[Erklitt]

1 hour ago, Three1415 said:

Can someone find the WoB that says the Edgedancers and the Windrunners are the 'god orders?' I haven't been able to locate it myself, and given the Bondsmith's and the Truthwatcher's central position in the diagram, and the fact that the Bondsmiths at least bond with the remainder of Honor himself, I find it unlikely the first two are the god orders, and would like to see confirmation...

Just go up three posts from your own. Last quote. Actually reading what went before sometimes helps...

[Three1415]

14 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

Just go up three posts from your own. Last quote. Actually reading what went before sometimes helps...

As does having some ability to interpret questions. I was skeptical of a surprising claim that was made, and wished to see the source; none of the information in your previous post addresses mine directly, nor does it clarify the very issue I wished to resolve--indeed, I raised my question due to that information, rather than in spite of it, as you presumed. 

For the purposes of additional clarification, as well as to defend the legitimacy of my question, I would like to note that the Stormfather, to whom Dalinar is bonded, is actually Honor (or, at least, as close as one is going to get after his Splintering), not just a little piece of him (as Syl is), which throws some confusion into who exactly the god orders are. Without explicit confirmation from Brandon, I am still inclined to believe the Bondsmiths are the closest in that regard, considering they both utilize Adhesion and have an even more direct link to Honor, as well as their central position in the KR diagram. Likewise with the Truthwatchers, although we lack enough perspective from Renarin to truly make a determination in that respect, and indeed there has been some speculation as to whether he is actually a Truthwatcher or not, due to a number of oddities regarding his bond.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Three1415

[goody153]

2 hours ago, maxal said:

I think it has more to do with the Skybreaker wanting to uphold the written law while the Windrunners are more concerned with honor and protection. I can easily imagine several situations where the Skybreakers would demand punishment for an individual the Windrunners want to protect.

People always hate lawyers: it isn't hard to figure out why the Skybreakers would have been at odds with most orders. 

It probably doesn't help that Skybreakers are like a better version of windrunner with the Division surge(the same surge as dustbringer which i assume is a destructive surge) instead of the sticky/sticky surge, probably makes them the most combat oriented out of all of them.

Yeah Skybreakers might really be what we suspected as has lots of issues with the other Order except probably BondSmiths. And they still remained like mentioned by Mraize back when Shallan was still young so they are probably the order that was mentioned in one of the epigraphs that reaped from the destruction of the other Orders especially that Nale seems to still guide the Order.

 

[Erklitt]

6 hours ago, Three1415 said:

As does having some ability to interpret questions. I was skeptical of a surprising claim that was made, and wished to see the source; none of the information in your previous post addresses mine directly, nor does it clarify the very issue I wished to resolve--indeed, I raised my question due to that information, rather than in spite of it, as you presumed. 

Ok, first: sorry if my one-liner came out rather rude. I apologize.

I just get a little frustrated sometimes about an occasional phenomenon of which this thread is a good example: I guess all of us sometime state half-remembered or misremembered WoBs as fact, that's human and in itself isn't a problem. But when someone else remembers something different, often the facts aren't checked, instead everyone continues on their own assumptions, and true discussion becomes harder and harder.

Since such different memories of WoBs concerning the god orders / surges were cited here, I decided to do a thorough search of WoBs for the topic and bring us all on the same page - to avoid that very phenomenon. I think I was pretty thorough, searching theoryland for the order names, surge names, and various expressions like 'god surge', 'god order' etc., each individually, so as not to miss anything. And I was surprised to find that Brandon never (as far as I can find) mentioned the existence of 'god orders' and didn't really take to the expression 'god surges' either - all that was interpretation. Not necessarily wrong, but still interpretation. So, I read your post and thought: "Hey, I just showed there is no such WoB! That all came from the one about Syl and Wyndle!" But I realize that 1) I didn't mention how thorough my search had been and 2) even if I had of course you didn't have to believe I'd found everything.

And if there is really such a WoB about the Edgedancers and Windrunners being god orders and I missed it, I'd sure like to know!

[HonorIsDead]

On ‎2016‎-‎07‎-‎26 at 3:28 AM, Erklitt said:

They know at least a simplified version, and understand what it means (and with 'they' I mean interested scholars, like Jasnah):

There's a rather militaristic version under the archway of chapter headings with non-standard POVs, and I think I've seen an even simpler version somewhere  (just spheres and lines), but I can't remember where. I would expect them to find the original at Urithiru , it certainly wasn't a big secret.

What I find interesting is that 4 orders have 4 connections to other orders, while the rest have only three. Assuming the lines between the orders mean anything. Each order has a connection to those next to it and to the one opposite; Windrunners, Edgedancers, Lightweavers and Stonewardens have an additional connction 'three orders up / down'.

So: if Windrunners and Edgedancers are the orders closest to the two 'benevolent' shards, what about the other two? What is the balance here? I don't think we can fit Odium in here, the KR were created to fight him (or rather his desolations). Maybe the  right hand side is the 'shard-centered' side, the left hand one the 'human-centered'? Truthwatchers and Bondsmiths stand in the middle as 'liaison' - for the Bondsmiths at least a very fitting position. And judging from Renarin's character the same could be true for the Truthwatchers. Windrunners and Edgedancers somehow combine and work together as the 'shardic backbone' of the KR, Lightwatchers and Stonewardens as the 'human backbone'? Now it gets pretty speculative I admit...

Edit: what I just dubbed the 'human side' also contains the three orders that have a special connection to Shadesmar. Vague ideas why they are somehow 'opposed' to the shardic side: Humans dabbling with the Cognitive Realm directly... spren created by the workings of the human mind (the Cryptics' 'mathematical identity' - Patterns true name would be numbers - would fit that)...

Edit2: Oh, and hello @FourthBridge, welcome to the Shard!

here's one of the simpler versions:

[HonorIsDead]

10 hours ago, goody153 said:

It probably doesn't help that Skybreakers are like a better version of windrunner with the Division surge(the same surge as dustbringer which i assume is a destructive surge) instead of the sticky/sticky surge, probably makes them the most combat oriented out of all of them.

yah, the Skybreakers are the offensive warriors, they are built to kill, seek vengeance and destroy , where as the Windrunners are the defense, they are designed to get places quickly, protect everyone, heal when needed but they aren't aloud to go seek out the enemy and counter attack, they need to stay back and protect the other orders that don't have powers that are as fighting based, or at least that what it seems like based off of what Kaladin and Szeth are like and the half told stories about the 2

Edited July 27, 2016 by The_God_King

[Emerald101]

@Three1415

The Stormfather is most likely Honor's Cognitive shadow merged with the "rider of the storms". In the pre-recreance days the Bondsmiths would've bonded a spren which we have only a partial understanding of, which I would argue is insufficient evidence to assume a "more direct link to" Honor from. Even if "God-orders" do exist (which I doubt) I would expect the Windrunners to represent Honor given their postition as number one in the essence chart, their divine attribute of leading, and their association with Jezrien the king of the Heralds. Additionally, Brandon himself (after some hemming and hawing) asserts the Honorspren as closest to Honor when he said, "But she (syl) would be the most pure... many would view her as the purest form." (Credit to Erklitt for digging that up)

@Erklitt

It's nice to see another sharder who's as concerned with headcanon WoB's as I am. Thanks for coming in and helping to clear some of this up.

Edited July 27, 2016 by Emerald101
Clarity + grammar