Glys

[maxal she/her]

I think Yata may have point.

There is another relevant WoB to this discussion which I would be hard-pressed to find, but someone linked Wyndle's appearances to Ym's spren using the fact Lift was being able to see through the cognitive realm. Eh it was not exactly in those words and I am convinced I am getting something wrong, so apologies in advance folks, but I did retain the fact Brandon told this person was very observant or smart or asked a good question. I do not recall  

Anyway, the point I am trying to raise is there is a connection in between the fact Lift is within the cognitive realm and Ym's spren appearance. I am not sure what the connection is exactly, but there is something in here the author has not wanted to tell us right away. I mean, what' the purpose of withholding information with regards to Ym's former order? He's dead. Why doesn't he want to tell us? There is a reason, this is for sure. However, ever since reading this WoB I am doing such a poor job out of quoting , I have revised my internal plotting and I have started to think Ym perhaps was an Edgedancer... We were so sure he was a Truthwatcher because the spren looked like light and it didn't have much in common with Wyndle... 

So what if Ym indeed is an Edgedancer? Why is it important NOT to tell us? Why is it important not to tell us what Glys looks like? 

Here is a potential answer sprouted by Yata earlier on: because knowing what Glys looks like would enable us to know which order Ym belongs to. While I do think something is off with Renarin and his visions, I also do not believe he has bonded a Voidspren which means I certainly believe he is a Truthwatcher. What information could potentially be hidden within Ym's short chapter which would be relevant to the Truthwatchers?

I can't see it. So what if the whole dilemma was linked to Ym actually being an Edgedancer? Why would it be relevant?

Perhaps because, as Yata suggested, Nale truly is hunting Edgedancers. Why? I do not know, maybe he has a personal vendetta against them, maybe Skybreakers and Edgedancers hated each other which I have no trouble believing based on what we know of both orders. We however have to consider the fact of all surgebinders, Nale didn't go for the obvious ones being in a position of power and thus, the most dangerous. He went to an elderly man in a remote village and to a young girl: both do not currently have the agency to influence anything within the world. Therefore, if surgebinders are dangerous, then why isn't he going after Jasnah, Shallan, Dalinar and Kaladin?

Why? Because he doesn't know about them? I don't believe it. Taravangian knew about Kaladin, he knew about Jasnah. Having Helaran among his followers, Nale would have known about Shallan. Dalinar is an easy guess. He could easily pin down a crime on each one of those to justify killing them, much more easily then he did for Lift and Ym. 

So why didn't he go for the most obvious, more powerful and actually dangerous Radiants?

I have no idea, but Yata's theory has merit. Maybe he is after the Edgedancers for reasons yet to explain, but the author doesn't want to give it away just yet. 

Edited July 22, 2016 by maxal

[+Kolten]

Also just the way Ym acts seems so much more in line with an edgedancer. Remembering those who have been forgotten by asking for their stories, caring and sacrificing. We do not know a lot about a truthwatchers oaths, but personality wise Ym seems closer to Lift  than to Renarin

[Brackcha he/him]

32 minutes ago, maxal said:

I think Yata may have point.

There is another relevant WoB to this discussion which I would be hard-pressed to find, but someone linked Wyndle's appearances to Ym's spren using the fact Lift was being able to see through the cognitive realm. Eh it was not exactly in those words and I am convinced I am getting something wrong, so apologies in advance folks, but I did retain the fact Brandon told this person was very observant or smart or asked a good question. I do not recall  

Anyway, the point I am trying to raise is there is a connection in between the fact Lift is within the cognitive realm and Ym's spren appearance. I am not sure what the connection is exactly, but there is something in here the author has not wanted to tell us right away. I mean, what' the purpose of withholding information with regards to Ym's former order? He's dead. Why doesn't he want to tell us? There is a reason, this is for sure. However, ever since reading this WoB I am doing such a poor job out of quoting , I have revised my internal plotting and I have started to think Ym perhaps was an Edgedancer... We were so sure he was a Truthwatcher because the spren looked like light and it didn't have much in common with Wyndle... 

So what if Ym indeed is an Edgedancer? Why is it important NOT to tell us? Why is it important not to tell us what Glys looks like? 

Here is a potential answer sprouted by Yata earlier on: because knowing what Glys looks like would enable us to know which order Ym belongs to. While I do think something is off with Renarin and his visions, I also do not believe he has bonded a Voidspren which means I certainly believe he is a Truthwatcher. What information could potentially be hidden within Ym's short chapter which would be relevant to the Truthwatchers?

I can't see it. So what if the whole dilemma was linked to Ym actually being an Edgedancer? Why would it be relevant?

Perhaps because, as Yata suggested, Nale truly is hunting Edgedancers. Why? I do not know, maybe he has a personal vendetta against them, maybe Skybreakers and Edgedancers hated each other which I have no trouble believing based on what we know of both orders. We however have to consider the fact of all surgebinders, Nale didn't go for the obvious ones being in a position of power and thus, the most dangerous. He went to an elderly man in a remote village and to a young girl: both do not currently have the agency to influence anything within the world. Therefore, if surgebinders are dangerous, then why isn't he going after Jasnah, Shallan, Dalinar and Kaladin?

Why? Because he doesn't know about them? I don't believe it. Taravangian knew about Kaladin, he knew about Jasnah. Having Helaran among his followers, Nale would have known about Shallan. Dalinar is an easy guess. He could easily pin down a crime on each one of those to justify killing them, much more easily then he did for Lift and Ym. 

So why didn't he go for the most obvious, more powerful and actually dangerous Radiants?

I have no idea, but Yata's theory has merit. Maybe he is after the Edgedancers for reasons yet to explain, but the author doesn't want to give it away just yet. 

He did go after them didn't he? Wasn't he the "man with the strange birthmark"(or something like that) who dropped Kaladin & Shallan into the chasms?

[maxal she/her]

1 hour ago, Brackcha said:

He did go after them didn't he? Wasn't he the "man with the strange birthmark"(or something like that) who dropped Kaladin & Shallan into the chasms?

Nale has always gone to hunt and seek the Radiant on his own: he never sent a third party to do his deed. He likes to recall them how it is they deserve to die: Ym has poisoned someone, some 40 years ago, Lift has been trespassing. 

Besides, the man who dropped the bridge was a hired assassin within the Sadeas's princedom: his goal was to drop Dalinar into the chasm, not Kaladin and Shallan. Shallan behind on the bridge merely was a coincidence more so Kaladin being there as well. They weren't the assassin's target: Dalinar was and to a lesser extend maybe he tried to get Adolin as collateral damage. 

From my perspective, the mere fact Nale didn't see fit to hang around the Shattered Plains in order to pluck out the Radiants could indicate he has other priorities which we aren't truly aware of. It makes no sense he would wander endlessly in the middle of nowhere to hunt Radiants when he could have just go to the Shattered Plains and wait. We have a WoB stating more sprens are gravitating towards the Kholin family as they stand at the forefront of important events thus confirming the majority of sprens aren't looking for proto-knights at random: they are looking for important people able to influence events. It may be why Dalinar is asked to seek Urithiru in one of his visions, in hope to become perhaps a Radiants: in the old days, the sprens most likely gravitate around the city, looking for future knights. In any advent, a Herald such as Nale surely would be aware of the sprens preference meaning if his goal merely was to pluck out all Radiants, then heading towards the Shattered Plains would have been the wisest choice.

What do Ym and Lift have in common? One is an old man and the other one is a little girl: they aren't threats nor would they ever become threats in the near future. Odd choices, very odd choices unless something else was guiding him.

Why would someone want to eliminate the Edgedancers above all orders?

[Erklitt she/her]

The points made here are too good to ignore, especially about Ym's personality and his asking for stories fitting the Edgedancer oath.

I just re-read the Nale-Lift scene. If he is hunting Edgedancers, then he's being pretty straightforward about it. I had taken his "You are an Edgedancer" as meaning "You are a surgebinder", but whatever he means he seems to be honest. And he states as his reason for pursuing her that she 'dabbles in arts that could return desolation to this world'.

So I think the question would be: what is it about Edgedancers that is more likely to bring a desolation than the doings of any other KR order?

What do we know about them? The in-world WoR states they are deadly, but I don't think they are more so then some other orders. And they are graceful, articulate and refined. We know they are compassionate, and we know their surges. And their first specific oath.

Maybe there's something in the 'rememberance'? "I will remember those who have been forgotten" sounds innocent enough, but maybe Edgedancers tend to remember more than they should. Things that, if remembered, can bring a desolation?? Still no real idea what that could be...

Edit: I just thought of another reason why Nale isn't going to the Shattered Plains. (So, one more argument against him hunting only Edgedancers) He always adheres to the laws of the land and accepted Gawx's pardon of Lift. (Only while she was there of course, but still.) And Elhokar could pardon any crime Nale might dig out for Dalinar and co. Dalinar says so clearly, in the Kaladin affair: "You can pardon any crime, as king." Maybe Nale just knows he can't touch the Surgebinders once they are under the protection of the Alethi crown, so he tries to find the 'budding ones' before they make it there.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Erklitt

[Erklitt she/her]

I think I just found (almost) proof against the 'Nale hunts only Edgedancers' theory. I read the Newsletter Lift story again for clues what made them 'huntworthy', and instead found this:

Spoiler

The Noodles [Azish viziers] looked into it; they're fascinated by him [Darkness]. Everyone pays attention to that bald guy who collects the heads of kings, but this guy has been murdering his way across Roshar, too. Little people. Quiet people.

Wyndle doesn't sound like he's one of many of his kind who were sent. I rather get the impression he was the only one; there may have been a few. But so many that Nale could 'kill his way across Roshar'? Well, maybe some spren have been 'host-hopping' after a murder. But still, it doesn't seem to fit.

[teknopathetic he/him]

My only guess is that the spren isn't from Roshar. Maybe it looks like something we have seen on a different planet. We know that other planets can have spren and that spren can move around the cosmere in some difficult way. 

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

I wonder if it is Truthwatcher spren's appearance in shadesmar which is the cause for concern. 

Also, don't forget that Lift's connection to shadesmar allows her to touch spren (or just Wyndle)  not so much see them as they appear in shadesmar, although that can be debated

[Yata he/him]

4 minutes ago, ParadoxSpren said:

I wonder if it is Truthwatcher spren's appearance in shadesmar which is the cause for concern. 

Also, don't forget that Lift's connection to shadesmar allows her to touch spren (or just Wyndle)  not so much see them as they appear in shadesmar, although that can be debated

But if this is the matter, Mister Sanderson may simply reveal how Glys appear in the physical realm.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Yata

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

I mean, their PR appearance could similarish to what we have seen with Pattern and Ivory, presumably Syl too. 

[summersnow]

Quote

“It appears that you are an Edgedancer,” Darkness said, steering her down the corridor as the
crowd moved in around Gawx, chattering. She stumbled, but he held her upright. “I had wondered
which of the two you would be.”

Nale wasnt certain what Lift was. I dont think he hunts Edgedancers specifically. I think he's really going after the surgebinders that are easier to kill. The prelude made very clear just how afraid the Heralds are of dying; I think the idea of hunting a surgebinder as dangerous as Kaladin or Jasnah just doesnt match with Nale cowardly nature.

Oh, by the way, the surge that Lift used when Nale first saw her was Abraison, so he was trying to decide between Edgedancers and Dustbringers.(not Truthwatchers, with whom they shared the Progression surge).

Edited July 23, 2016 by summersnow

[Eki]

Yeah, Nale specifically says he had wondered which of the two Lift was after she healed the Prime. (I say the Prime, because of course, he was always the Prime, they just hadn't realized it yet)

And I'm not sure why people are talking about Nale not going to the Shattered Plains (haven't read everything, sorry)... He did, he's there at the end of WoR. As to why he didn't go there before, I think everyone makes great points. He needs the law to agree with him, and that would be difficult to achieve for him there.

[Erklitt she/her]

1 hour ago, summersnow said:

Nale wasnt certain what Lift was.

I think Nale could be mad enough that finding someone with one surge that might make them an Edgedancer would be reason enough for him. But I agree that theory is out, for other reasons (see above)

16 minutes ago, Eki said:

And I'm not sure why people are talking about Nale not going to the Shattered Plains (haven't read everything, sorry)... He did, he's there at the end of WoR. As to why he didn't go there before, I think everyone makes great points. He needs the law to agree with him, and that would be difficult to achieve for him there.

You're absolutely right! I guess I had taken it for granted that he just came there to get Szeth and so never made that connection. I'm beginning to think Nale could turn into a great problem with the Adolin situation, were he to show signs of bonding (as I almost expect). Trumped up old charges are one thing, but a recent manslaughter might be much harder for Elhokar to pardon without losing all credibility as king. His hold on power is tenuous enough as it is.

[Rasarr she/her]

*puts her tinfoil hat on*
Glys looks just like Renarin. Sometimes, when other people thought that they were talking to Renarin, they were actually talking to Glys
*takes the hat off*

Now that I have this particular stupid thought out of my head, let me propose another possibility - what if Glys looks very similar to something we've already seen, but not a voidbringer? For example, what if his face is changing all the time, like Cuciseh's? Or book 3 will give us description of Nightwatcher, and later we'll find out that Glys looks very similar to her? Both could have quite some ramifications, though I'm not quite certain what they'd be.

Also, @Erklitt, I don't think Nale is coming for Adolin anytime soon. The last we've seen of him, he was setting out for Shinovar, and newsletter's excercept places him somewhere in Lift's vicinity (Tashikk?).

Edited July 23, 2016 by Rasarr

[Erklitt she/her]

1 hour ago, Rasarr said:

Also, @Erklitt, I don't think Nale is coming for Adolin anytime soon. The last we've seen of him, he was setting out for Shinovar, and newsletter's excercept places him somewhere in Lift's vicinity (Tashikk?).

Read the scene again - you're probably right. I remembered it rather as Nale sending Szeth to Shinovar. But it does rather sound like Nale is coming along.

[galendo]

On 7/21/2016 at 4:19 PM, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

If Glys doesn't look like that, then...  That would make me sad as well. I don't want Renarin to be an eventual betrayer (by binding a Void spren) to the family/Knights Radiant for power. It doesn't seem like his style, nor is it something I'd want to read. 

Really?  See, now I'd really like to read something like this.  The problem with Renarin, IMHO, is that he just isn't adding anything to the story right now.  Like, he could have literally not been in the books so far, and nothing would have changed.  We wouldn't have had the countdown, I guess...but I'm not sure the story would actually be worse for its absence.  I didn't really like the way the countdown was handled, anyway.  Too much coincidence that literally no one saw Renarin make the markings.  The first ones, maybe, I can understand no one noticing, but once they were actively watching out for someone writing them...it stretches my suspension of disbelief.

I also feel like they should have had someone in the room watching Dalinar anyway.  Wasn't that what Navani was doing as of the end of WoK?  Why did she suddenly stop recording his visions as he had them?  It makes no sense.  I feel that, logically, they should have confirmed or disproved whether Dalinar was making the markings after like the second or third vision, at most.

On 7/22/2016 at 1:52 AM, Erklitt said:

Syl has seen stormspren / voidspren about ... I'd hate a storyline where Renarin turns bad. But what about a storyline where he resists the influence of a bad or corrupted spren, once he realizes what it is? Stays 'good', maybe even 'converts' his spren? I'd like to see that... (And something like 'converting spren' needs to be possible, considering Dalinar and the Stormfather.)

Something like this could be pretty cool.  I'm not sure I like the converting the spren idea, since it seems like spren are pretty firmly bound by their own nature (they seem much less flexible than people, for instance).  But I wouldn't mind seeing a 'bad' Renarin (maybe 'misguided' is better) struggling against the bond once he realizes what he's somehow bonded.  That could be a cool arc, and one that none of our other proto-Radiants could reasonably give us, either.

[maxal she/her]

1 hour ago, galendo said:

Really?  See, now I'd really like to read something like this.  The problem with Renarin, IMHO, is that he just isn't adding anything to the story right now.  Like, he could have literally not been in the books so far, and nothing would have changed.  We wouldn't have had the countdown, I guess...but I'm not sure the story would actually be worse for its absence.  I didn't really like the way the countdown was handled, anyway.  Too much coincidence that literally no one saw Renarin make the markings.  The first ones, maybe, I can understand no one noticing, but once they were actively watching out for someone writing them...it stretches my suspension of disbelief.

I also feel like they should have had someone in the room watching Dalinar anyway.  Wasn't that what Navani was doing as of the end of WoK?  Why did she suddenly stop recording his visions as he had them?  It makes no sense.  I feel that, logically, they should have confirmed or disproved whether Dalinar was making the markings after like the second or third vision, at most.

Yes. I have to agree with you here. Renarin doesn't currently add to the story which is probably why so many readers stood in disbelieve over him being made a Radiant. Where did it come from? He was made a Radiant but we weren't privy as to how and, more importantly, why. A lot of people have been saying Renarin's life will go from bad to worst because others will give him trouble for having visions, but I fail to see it. Hadn't he manage to hide it from others? And if visions are as uncontrollable as others claim they are, then how did he manage to hide himself for so long? Dalinar's visions were predictable and yet he couldn't keep them contained so how did Renarin managed to do it on something he has no control on?

I sincerely have no idea what is going on with Renarin right now, but I read a lot of conflicting opinions on him. Mostly, I am bothered by the fact I was told he was an extremely important character while I cannot see which role he has embraced so far which is so crucial. This being said, a lot could change in between now and book 10, but I am somewhat disturbed I was told this. My reader's perspective were very different and it somehow bothers me none of my perspective happen to be right. 

I also agree it is highly implausible nobody saw him unless... unless he was using the Illumination surge to hide himself from any prying eye. The problem with this theory is it goes against other theories both wanting Renarin is not controlling his visions being a complete a victim as to when and how they arrive and Renarin being totally untrained with surgebinding.

It just doesn't add up. 

If the visions are uncontrollable, then him managing to hide himself is implausible.

If he consciously did it, them him being untrained and a novice is implausible.

It just doesn't add up. I have no idea what the deal is with Renarin, but anything dragging the character out his current mood would be an improvement, IMHO.

As for Nale... It also doesn't add up to me. His obsession over Lift is not plausible unless something else was at work. A child is not a threat, even a Radiant child: nobody is going to listen to her. I do not know if he truly hunts Edgedancers or not, but it is strange, to me at least. 

As for Ym, there seem to be only two solutions to the problem: either he is a Truthwatcher and Renarin isn't which is why the secrecy was put together or he is an Edgedancer and it has something to do with Nale's quest. I'd rather take the second option over the first.

[Argel he/him]

18 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

We know that other planets can have spren

Other planets can have native Spren? I don't recall a WoB on that.

 

3 hours ago, maxal said:

unless he was using the Illumination surge to hide himself from any prying eye. The problem with this theory is it goes against other theories both wanting Renarin is not controlling his visions being a complete a victim as to when and how they arrive and Renarin being totally untrained with surgebinding.

Am I missing something here? Why couldn't e.g. his spren be the one in control?

As far what not confirm Dalinar is doing the countdown, they had his knife as "proof" and believe it was tied to the visions. And the visions were the bigger concern. Once they had some kind of grip on that, it's plausible they would not look into the countdown further. We suspect Renarin was doing the countdown based on evidence they did not have. Why would they not think it's Dalinar?? They have no reason to suspect anyone else. 

[maxal she/her]

8 hours ago, Argel said:

Other planets can have native Spren? I don't recall a WoB on that.

 

Am I missing something here? Why couldn't e.g. his spren be the one in control?

As far what not confirm Dalinar is doing the countdown, they had his knife as "proof" and believe it was tied to the visions. And the visions were the bigger concern. Once they had some kind of grip on that, it's plausible they would not look into the countdown further. We suspect Renarin was doing the countdown based on evidence they did not have. Why would they not think it's Dalinar?? They have no reason to suspect anyone else. 

Because prior to Dalinar admitting it was probably him, they thought it was someone else. His admission came somewhere half-way through the book when he finds yet another glyph mark clearly done with his knife. He thus concluded it must be him, but prior to this, they didn't know. Dalinar had always remembered his visions and while he couldn't control them, he definitely was aware of what was happening to him. The countdown puzzled him because he has no memory of doing it. It didn't follow the pattern of his previous visions.

They posted guards everywhere in order to catch whoever was doing it and nobody ever saw a thing. The first glyph they found was during a Highstorm when they were all clustered together in a small piece, surrounded by several guards. Kaladin simply cannot fathom how someone could have passed through his wall of guard and feels terrible someone got through on his first assignment. Not being a fool, Dalinar is able to see Kaladin's guards were appropriately positioned and he doesn't hold it against him.

For Renarin to have done it, undetected, through a room full of people, not to mention the subsequent times where he had to dodge the guards, would have required a cunning we have not yet seen in him. If it was uncontrollable, then the fact he managed to remain undetected is not plausible. At the Oathgate, his behavior appears uncontrollable and he just drops there scribbling zeros everywhere... If this is how he behaved the other times, then he would have been caught. He would have never been able to walk pass the guards, in such a state, to steal his father's knife and to mark the wall. 

I thus do not think Renarin is not in control of his visions. I do think he cannot control when they arrive, but he can control enough of himself to go and scratch a wall, undetected. Remember the first time a scratch mark was done on the wall, Renarin was with them in a small room.... He couldn't have had an invasive vision right there: they would have seen him. The marks thus are Renarin very conscious and deliberate action made most probably through he use of the Illumination surge to hide himself.

As for Glys being in control, as far as we know, sprens cannot take the control of human beings, nor can they force their knight to surgebinde. I personally think it was Renarin, it was deliberate and I also believe he is more advance then we think when it comes to sugebinding.

[Argel he/him]

Hmm, good point about them knowing. Well, there's the other reason -- denial/not wanting to know, and then latching onto the first good-enough explanation. Especially one that doesn't drag anyone else into the equation. 

If Renarin is further along than we think that would be a good reason not to have any POVs for him. And Gly's appearance could change as Truthwatchers advance, or it could just be that as we saw with Kaladin, Syl can do more as Kal advances, and if we saw Glys, it would tip us off as to how advanced Renarin is. 

So, let's say he is much further along. Thoughts on his actions in that light? For example, was there more to joining Bridgefour? An obvious one is making sure he was with the expedition to the center of the Shattered Plains. Hard to imagine Dalinar not telling him to stay behind with Elohkar. But he's part of Bridgefour now, so "out of his hands" so to speak. 

Did he know more about the outcome of the duel? That if he had not stepped in Adolin would have lost? The tone of the dual was already starting to shift (they were going to try and cripple Adolin), but it shifted even further when Renarin steps in, making e.g. Kaladin's intervention even more important, and Shallan sends Pattern to help, which we are led to believe leads to that opponent freaking out and leaving the arena. 

I'm not sure I buy into the "Renarin we see is (mostly) an act", but I also have a hard time seeing Renarin being further along than he is and actually being the "useless" Renarin we think we see. I hope there is more to it though -- gives me hope for his SA book. Have an upvote for pushing me to take a new look at Renarin. 

 

 

Edited July 24, 2016 by Argel

[maxal she/her]

2 hours ago, Argel said:

Hmm, good point about them knowing. Well, there's the other reason -- denial/not wanting to know, and then latching onto the first good-enough explanation. Especially one that doesn't drag anyone else into the equation. 

If Renarin is further along than we think that would be a good reason not to have any POVs for him. And Gly's appearance could change as Truthwatchers advance, or it could just be that as we saw with Kaladin, Syl can do more as Kal advances, and if we saw Glys, it would tip us off as to how advanced Renarin is. 

So, let's say he is much further along. Thoughts on his actions in that light? For example, was there more to joining Bridgefour? An obvious one is making sure he was with the expedition to the center of the Shattered Plains. Hard to imagine Dalinar not telling him to stay behind with Elohkar. But he's part of Bridgefour now, so "out of his hands" so to speak. 

Did he know more about the outcome of the duel? That if he had not stepped in Adolin would have lost? The tone of the dual was already starting to shift (they were going to try and cripple Adolin), but it shifted even further when Renarin steps in, making e.g. Kaladin's intervention even more important, and Shallan sends Pattern to help, which we are led to believe leads to that opponent freaking out and leaving the arena. 

I'm not sure I buy into the "Renarin we see is (mostly) an act", but I also have a hard time seeing Renarin being further along than he is and actually being the "useless" Renarin we think we see. I hope there is more to it though -- gives me hope for his SA book. Have an upvote for pushing me to take a new look at Renarin. 

 

 

I do not know why Renarin's level of advancement would be an information Brandon would purposefully retained. He did tell us Renarin has been bonded Glys since earlier than it appears in the book which does imply he is farther along the road than people initially thought. Mind further down the road probably means he has said one or two additional oaths besides the first one as opposed to have only said the first one as most believe. I personally think Renarin most certainly is a level 2 Radiant and potentially a level 3, but not further than that. In other words, he progressed enough to be able to draw in stormlight at will and to be able to consciously use his surge. Which level of fluency he has with those is yet to be seen: hiding oneself with the Illumination surge is an easy feat even a novice shouldn't struggle too much with. Shallan's illusions are much more complex, so there is no reason to believe Renarin is not able to do something more basic. Simply because he feels useless does not mean he is. Renarin's feelings towards his own self have to do with his lack of soldering capacities: he is useless because he cannot fight, so he is bond to think his new powers are just as useless as they do not grant him warrior capacities. 

I think this may be the character's greatest flaw: his inability to perceive worth into any other activity but soldering and his obsession he has to be one if he is to ever be useful.

I thus do not think there is much more to him joining Bridge 4 than him wanting to be a soldier. He choose an unit his father wouldn't disapprove of, one which never sees combat so he could be a soldier among them. I do not think he did it to ensure he'd be at the Shattered Plains: he would have been there anyway. He didn't come as a "member of Bridge 4", but as "Prince Renarin Kholin". Besides, neither Dalinar nor Adolin consider Renarin to be a member of Bridge 4, they merely allow him to get away with it because well, it is Renarin. It is makes him happy, then they will close their eyes.

I do not think Renarin knew the outcome of the 4 on 1 duel nor do I think he knew he had to do something. I think he just saw his older brother being pounded on brutally, being clearly outmatched and he couldn't stand to watch Adolin being hurt while staying idle. I also doubt the visions have to do with daily life events: it appears as they tackle the greater scheme of things and while everyone loves Adolin, him being crippled in a duel bears no consequences in the higher game. I thus think the 4 on 1 duel was just what it appears to be: a great show of brotherly love. It highlights just how much Renarin loves Adolin, how despite having spent a lifetime being the second fiddle, being over-shadowed by a greater, better and more talented (in the areas which he thinks it matters the most) brother he still managed to grow up being supportive and yes, protective even of his older sibling. Renarin has watched out for Adolin all through both books, even if it isn't shown in any layer of depth. He has always been there, the one to listen to his endless courtships errors, the one trying to sound encouraging, the one trying to offer advice (be nice with them), the one trying to sooth his brother during his most emotional scenes... IMO, Renarin is NOT useless, it'd be great if he were to appreciate it.

[Pathfinder]

So here is a thought, just throwing it out there that may ride both sides of this dilemma. What if Renarin gets possessed by the vision, so is not in control, and writes what he does on the wall while the place is empty earlier in the day. Then he wakes up from the vision, and realizes what he did. Embarrassed, and worried about being caught he puts an illusion of a plain wall over what he wrote. When the writing is revealed is simply by the time the stormlight has run out and the illusion fades. So while all those guards are around looking for someone to write/carve something, it had already been there hours before they ever arrived. So Renarin does not have to be super cunning to accomplish it (slip by invisible, or have a illusory duplicate of himself while he does ), and he can still be out of control of the visions. 

 

edit: also regarding why does Nale not go for Kaladin, Jasnah, Dalinar, and Renarin. Although we could debate regarding Jasnah, I think a case can be made that none of those four broke any Alethi or Kharbranth laws. Since they didn't break any laws, he has no reason to go for them. Lift stole, and Ym was an accessory to murder (if i recall correctly). 

Edited July 25, 2016 by Pathfinder

[maxal she/her]

45 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So here is a thought, just throwing it out there that may ride both sides of this dilemma. What if Renarin gets possessed by the vision, so is not in control, and writes what he does on the wall while the place is empty earlier in the day. Then he wakes up from the vision, and realizes what he did. Embarrassed, and worried about being caught he puts an illusion of a plain wall over what he wrote. When the writing is revealed is simply by the time the stormlight has run out and the illusion fades. So while all those guards are around looking for someone to write/carve something, it had already been there hours before they ever arrived. So Renarin does not have to be super cunning to accomplish it (slip by invisible, or have a illusory duplicate of himself while he does ), and he can still be out of control of the visions. 

 

edit: also regarding why does Nale not go for Kaladin, Jasnah, Dalinar, and Renarin. Although we could debate regarding Jasnah, I think a case can be made that none of those four broke any Alethi or Kharbranth laws. Since they didn't break any laws, he has no reason to go for them. Lift stole, and Ym was an accessory to murder (if i recall correctly). 

The problem, for my part, is if he is out of control during his visions, then it seems impossible he wouldn't have been found out. They have been going on for weeks: Dalinar couldn't keep his very predictable vision secretive for this long. It just doesn't work out for myself. I simply do not buy Renarin has been twitching uncontrollably in fits of mind breaking moments for weeks and nobody saw anything as he was lucky enough for them to happen when nobody else was around.

Kaladin tried to escape from slavery, surely this isn't legal. Jasnah has assassins, tried to have people killed and most certainly murdered those thugs. Dalinar, well, Dalinar has his past for which he may or may not have had an official pardon. Shallan murdered her parents. I can't think of anything Nale would have against Renarin, so he'd be safe, for now.

[galendo]

38 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So here is a thought, just throwing it out there that may ride both sides of this dilemma. What if Renarin gets possessed by the vision, so is not in control, and writes what he does on the wall while the place is empty earlier in the day. Then he wakes up from the vision, and realizes what he did. Embarrassed, and worried about being caught he puts an illusion of a plain wall over what he wrote. When the writing is revealed is simply by the time the stormlight has run out and the illusion fades. So while all those guards are around looking for someone to write/carve something, it had already been there hours before they ever arrived. So Renarin does not have to be super cunning to accomplish it (slip by invisible, or have a illusory duplicate of himself while he does ), and he can still be out of control of the visions.

This could work, and honestly, it's a better explanation than any I've been able to come up with, but it does have a few problems:

1) Don't/shouldn't Renarin's visions be coming at the same time as Dalinar's, i.e., during the highstorm?  The countdown only ever appears on highstorm days.  It's not impossible that the vision comes before the storm, I guess, but the one time we see Renarin scratching away in the grip of the vision (near the Oathgate on the Shattered Plains), the storm is already raging just outside.

2) It relies on Dalinar being in the appropriate place when the Highstorm hits.  I can't remember if it happened in WoR or not, but in WoK the highstorms sometimes hit at unexpected times, when Dalinar wasn't in his own private rooms.  Now maybe you could argue that Truthwatchers can see the future well enough to know where Dalinar will be and Renarin's plotting all this out (to frame his father for the scratchings...why?), but it seems like a bit of a stretch.

3) Why not mark the walls in some other section of the palace entirely?  It seems a much better idea than trying to convince everyone that your father's in even less control of himself than everyone thought.  It's not like carvings in walls are so common that there's any danger of your warnings being overlooked or ignored.

4) Why hide the marks in the first place?  If no one saw you carve them, and no one's around to see you hide them with Stormlight, then probably no one's going to see if you just walk into the next room.

5) Wasn't Dalinar's knife the one used?  I kind of seem to remember that the blade showed signs of wear, though maybe I'm misremembering.  If so, though, this theory would require Renarin to steal the blade and then sneak it back again.  Again, why go through all this trouble?  Surely Renarin has knives of his own.

6) Why wasn't Navani watching Dalinar and recording his visions?  This isn't really a knock against your theory so much as it is a criticism about this part of WoR in general, but...why did she stop recording?  It's not like the few visions she witnessed were sufficient to derive the entire Dawn Chant, right?  I don't recall this ever being satisfactorily explained.

[Pathfinder]

26 minutes ago, maxal said:

The problem, for my part, is if he is out of control during his visions, then it seems impossible he wouldn't have been found out. They have been going on for weeks: Dalinar couldn't keep his very predictable vision secretive for this long. It just doesn't work out for myself. I simply do not buy Renarin has been twitching uncontrollably in fits of mind breaking moments for weeks and nobody saw anything as he was lucky enough for them to happen when nobody else was around.

Kaladin tried to escape from slavery, surely this isn't legal. Jasnah has assassins, tried to have people killed and most certainly murdered those thugs. Dalinar, well, Dalinar has his past for which he may or may not have had an official pardon. Shallan murdered her parents. I can't think of anything Nale would have against Renarin, so he'd be safe, for now.

Although a good point, I could say that he has been seen having fits. Everyone just attributes it to his "blood disease". Now true, this would rely on every time his "fit" manifests as writing on the wall being with no one around, but I think it is possible. I agree, you are correct, it is a stretch, but I was just trying to spit ball and see what stuck lol.

 

Regarding your response on legality. Kaladin was made a slave illegally. Nale does seem to have a beyond normal capability to find out a person's every dirty secret (evidenced by Ym). Since Kaladin being made a slave was unlawful, it would be more akin to him trying to escape kidnapping or unlawful imprisonment. So his fleeing would not be illegal. This is why I clarified Alethi and Karbarthian. We could debate about it back and forth, but from what I have seen, although assassination is "frowned" upon, it isn't illegal. As well as although she had foreknowledge, she did kill the thugs in self defense. Shallan killed her parents in self defense. Dalinar killed while at war. Twisted as it may be, killing during combat is seen as a part of war, not illegal. Now again, we could debate and go back and forth (as we have in the past in other threads lol), but that is my theory at least. As per the laws in world, nothing they did was illegal, so he had no cause to seek them out. But I respect that your views are different on the subject. 

 

edit: regarding Jasnah and assassinations, I just remembered, she had the assassin on retainer if someone else tried to hire them. She had a standing contact that if anyone hired an assassin to kill her or the royal family, she would pay better. She also had a contract pending for the queen, but did not follow through. So now I have to ask, have we ever seen Jasnah actually have any assassin carry out an assassination?

Edited July 25, 2016 by Pathfinder