Gavilar's Black Sphere theories

[Assassin in Burgundy]

I've always wondered about the black sphere that Gavilar gave to Szeth. And unfortunately, the Coppermind has almost nothing on it. So without further ado, here are my theories that have no reliable truth and are probably not true.

#1. Shadesmar Sphere.

My first most likely untrue theory is that the black sphere is the "sprensphere" of Odium. In Shadesmar, each one of the spheres refer to something back in the physical realm, (I think). I believe Gavilar was somehow able to transport back a sphere from Shadesmar, and this sphere was of Odium, another Shard or something else important that my illogical mind cannot fathom.

#2. Voidbringer Stormlight.

This is probably the most likely to be true, but still, that chance is slim. As pointed out to me by @Pathfinder, Voidbringers are filled with Investiture. For those who don't know what that is, go here ---> http://coppermind.net/wiki/Investiture. Stormlight is a type of Investiture, and it fills spheres. According to Dalinar's flashbacks, Voidbringers/Midnight Essence (are they similar/the same?) bled black smoke, similar to Stormlight. What Gavilar may have done is fill a dun sphere not with Stormlight, but with Voidlight. (Made-up term). He may have needed this for returning the desolations for some unknown reason.

So, which one of these is more likely to be true? Or, even better, and post your, more likely correct, theories.

Also...

Here is a Sanderson Interragation Session about Gavilar's Black sphere below. I couldn't really make heads or tails of it.

QUESTION

As far as I can tell, in The Stormlight Archive, we have seen three different lights: the stormlight, the amberlight in the flashbacks, and the dark light in the stone. Do those correspond to the three Shards?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, the amberlight is more a function of...it's no different than the stormlight.

QUESTION

So, you see that in a storm? Like when gems gather that in the storm?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That amberlight is more related to... so, no... you are not seeing something other than stormlight. That is like saying that stormlight in a topaz is a different color than stormlight in a sapphire. It's not different colors; you're just seeing it filtered through something. The dark light of the, um, the gemstone that Szeth was given is indeed something different and distinct.

QUESTION

Voooiidlight?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, it is related to a different shard. How about that?

Edited July 20, 2016 by Assassin in Burgundy

[CaptainRyan]

8 minutes ago, Assassin in Burgundy said:

#1. Shadesmar Sphere.

My first most likely untrue theory is that the black sphere is the "sprensphere" of Odium. In Shadesmar, each one of the spheres refer to something back in the physical realm, (I think). I believe Gavilar was somehow able to transport back a sphere from Shadesmar, and this sphere was of Odium, another Shard or something else important that my illogical mind cannot fathom.

I would, personally, rate this as unlikely. We are told that Hemalurgic spikes can only hold a (relatively) small amount of Investiture and I believe Brandon was asked if you could spike an entire Shard and he very clearly said "Not a chance". In the same way I do not think a single sphere, no matter how large the gemstone nor how Shadesmar-y it is, could handle the full Shard of Odium.

10 minutes ago, Assassin in Burgundy said:

Voidbringers/Midnight Essence (are they similar/the same?)

They are not the same. The Radiant in Dalinar's vision laughs off the suggestion that the Midnight Essence are Voidbringers.

11 minutes ago, Assassin in Burgundy said:

bled black smoke

There is one other object in the Cosmere that I can think of that also has "black smoke". Any relation to what is released from a Midnight Essence I wonder? Hmm...

12 minutes ago, Assassin in Burgundy said:

QUESTION

[...] the dark light in the stone. Do those correspond to the three Shards?

[...]

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, it is related to a different shard. How about that?

Brandon specifically avoids naming Odium. Perhaps the Black Sphere is related to Cultivation somehow? Or perhaps Brandon was simply trying to avoid giving a direct answer?

 

Lastly, and this is a personal thing, I generally do not upvote people who ask for it. That is not a condemnation of you doing it but rather a personal quirk of mine. 

[Argel]

There is also WoB about black being the color of mixed Investitures.

And ditto about asking for votes.

[Yata]

9 hours ago, Argel said:

There is also WoB about black being the color of mixed Investitures.

And ditto about asking for votes.

Black is the result of mixed Investiture, but can be also a Shard's Investiture color.

Mistborn Spoiler

Spoiler

For example Ruin's Investiture is Black

 

Edited July 20, 2016 by Yata

[Assassin in Burgundy]

Okay, this could be possibly true. I still think that the sphere is Midnight Essence blood or whatever, but according to the Coppermind, Midnight Essence was like the harbinger for the Desolations. Maybe if that sphere could return the Midnight Essence, then Gavilar thought that that would return the Desolations also.

I'm still kind of making this up. But could this work? 

[CaptainRyan]

1 hour ago, Assassin in Burgundy said:

But could this work?

Sure. It could, as far as I know, theoretically work haha. I certainly do not have any direct evidence to counter the idea that the Black Sphere is Midnight Essence.

On the other hand, we also do not have much information at all about the Black Sphere so I would not personally endorse this idea either.  

[Patrick Star]

I'm still on the "Unmade in a box" train.

FYI (for any new people), the theory's basically that Yelig-nar (aka Blightwind) is inside the sphere, and that the voices Szeth hears are from Yelig-nar talking to him (or maybe just screaming at him for lolz or something).

@CaptainRyan I'm pretty sure that the Midnight Essences are spawned by Re-Shephir (an unmade, known as the Midnight Mother).  Slightly off topic, but I'm pretty sure she's the second unmade (the alien and sleek one) that Kal and Shallan see in the chasms.

Since we have a broken shardblade leaking black smoke, the unmade could also be broken splinters.  I'll have to think this over a bit more to make a firmer theory.  I'm pretty tired right now.

[asterion137]

my personal weird theory on the sphere is that it's like the Ire sphere in Mistborn Secret History in that it 

Spoiler

manufactures connection with a shard

It could be useful in trying to "build a bridge" between voidbinding?? and surgebinding as mentioned in the epigraphs

[galendo]

2 hours ago, Patrick Star said:

I'm still on the "Unmade in a box" train.

@CaptainRyanFYI (for any new people), the theory's basically that Yelig-nar (aka Blightwind) is inside the sphere, and that the voices Szeth hears are from Yelig-nar talking to him (or maybe just screaming at him for lolz or something).

 

Huh.  Haven't heard this one before.  Is there any evidence to suggest it, other than that Yelig-nar howls with "the voices he consumed" (or something like that) and that Szeth hears voices howling at him?  Because IIRC, he doesn't exactly carry the black sphere on his person.

[Jondesu]

2 minutes ago, galendo said:

Huh.  Haven't heard this one before.  Is there any evidence to suggest it, other than that Yelig-nar howls with "the voices he consumed" (or something like that) and that Szeth hears voices howling at him?  Because IIRC, he doesn't exactly carry the black sphere on his person.

There's a WoB stating that anyone who did what Szeth has done would hear the screams, which leads me to believe there's no connection to Yelig-bar. Brandon could have been being tricky though, and saying "Anyone who touched that sphere (which is something Szeth has done) would hear the screams." There was a tiny bit of wiggle room.

jW

[Naurock]

16 hours ago, Patrick Star said:

I'm still on the "Unmade in a box" train.

FYI (for any new people), the theory's basically that Yelig-nar (aka Blightwind) is inside the sphere, and that the voices Szeth hears are from Yelig-nar talking to him (or maybe just screaming at him for lolz or something).

@CaptainRyan I'm pretty sure that the Midnight Essences are spawned by Re-Shephir (an unmade, known as the Midnight Mother).  Slightly off topic, but I'm pretty sure she's the second unmade (the alien and sleek one) that Kal and Shallan see in the chasms.

Since we have a broken shardblade leaking black smoke, the unmade could also be broken splinters.  I'll have to think this over a bit more to make a firmer theory.  I'm pretty tired right now.

Szeth didn't receive a broken shardblade. Nightblood may kinda look like one, but behaves very differently.

[Patrick Star]

17 hours ago, galendo said:

Huh.  Haven't heard this one before.  Is there any evidence to suggest it, other than that Yelig-nar howls with "the voices he consumed" (or something like that) and that Szeth hears voices howling at him?  Because IIRC, he doesn't exactly carry the black sphere on his person.

It's somewhat circumstantial, but there are a couple of hints (or "hints", I guess).  There's the voices, which are basically Yelig-nar's trademark atm.  Also, the Parshendi assassinated Gavilar because they thought that he would bring the unmade back (they say "their gods", but it's almost definitely the unmade).  Gavilar possessing an unmade would definitely be enough proof to cause an assassination, and we've only been introduced to a few unmade so far.

Yelig-nar: AKA Blightwind.  Speaks through voices of those he has consumed.  Whereabouts unknown.

Moelach: Causes death rattles, and is on the move.  Not in the sphere.

Nergaoul: Causes the Thrill.  Also on Move.  Not in the sphere.

Re-Shephir: Likely creates midnight essences.  If my theory is correct, is on the move.

Dai-gonarthis: Known as the "Black Fisher".  Whereabouts unknown, possibly near water (just guessing from the name)?

Sja-Anat: Corrupts spren, whereabouts unknown, though could be responsible for creating Parshendi stormspren.

So if Gavilar has an unmade, it's one of Blightwind, Re-Shephir, Dai-gonarthis, or Sja-Anat.  However, Sja-Anat was introduced in WoR, so I doubt that it is in the sphere, as that would be poor storytelling.

And if Re-shephir was seen in the chasms, that would leave Yelig-nar or Dai-gonarthis in the sphere.  Of the two, only Yelig-nar fits the bill.

3 hours ago, Naurock said:

Szeth didn't receive a broken shardblade. Nightblood may kinda look like one, but behaves very differently.

Yes, he did.  Nightblood is essentially a broken shardblade (just from a different shard).  It's WoB, he said so at a Q&A.   http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/23013-wobs-from-steel-ministry/

 

[Stormgate]

@Patrick Star, is that a complete list of all Unmade? As in, has Brandon said that there are 6? If not, then there could be others. 

 

I do think it is probably Yelig-nar, going by the description of what it is.

 

However, does that mean that Yelig-nar escaped the sphere, and bonded Szeth?

[Patrick Star]

43 minutes ago, Stormgate said:

@Patrick Star, is that a complete list of all Unmade? As in, has Brandon said that there are 6? If not, then there could be others. 

I do think it is probably Yelig-nar, going by the description of what it is.

However, does that mean that Yelig-nar escaped the sphere, and bonded Szeth?

No, those are only the ones that have been mentioned by name so far.  And if the unmade-in-a-box theory is true, it would have to be one of them (minus Moelach, Nergaoul, and Sja-anat). I'm not entirely sure how the communication works.  Szeth definitely hasn't bonded Yelig-nar, though.  There's a WoB on that.  It's hard to say what's going on, since we don't know a ton about how the unmade work.

[Naurock]

5 hours ago, Patrick Star said:

Yes, he did.  Nightblood is essentially a broken shardblade (just from a different shard).  It's WoB, he said so at a Q&A.   http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/23013-wobs-from-steel-ministry/

 

I haven't seen this Q&A, only the Reddit one where he says the sword is more like a "robot spren". I'm not sure "broken" is the correct word, more incomplete. NB is sentient but kinda dense despite its age, whereas a spren the longer it's bonded has picked up on mannerisms and learned much to be much better company. Not gonna lie when I finished WoR I was psyched when Szeth got this sword, but after reading Warbreaker I was kinda let down after finding out how NB isn't very smart.

 

Anyways back to the topic, who do you think Gavilar was trying to keep the stone from? He assumed Szeth was Thiadakar's assassin. When he found out he worked for the parshendi he gave him the stone. Was he trying to keep it from the parshendi and was frazzled due to the fall/beating/having a chunk of wood through his chest? Or was he attempting to keep it from the Ghostbloods? 

[dvoraen]

3 hours ago, Naurock said:

I haven't seen this Q&A, only the Reddit one where he says the sword is more like a "robot spren". I'm not sure "broken" is the correct word, more incomplete. NB is sentient but kinda dense despite its age, whereas a spren the longer it's bonded has picked up on mannerisms and learned much to be much better company. Not gonna lie when I finished WoR I was psyched when Szeth got this sword, but after reading Warbreaker I was kinda let down after finding out how NB isn't very smart.

 

Anyways back to the topic, who do you think Gavilar was trying to keep the stone from? He assumed Szeth was Thiadakar's assassin. When he found out he worked for the parshendi he gave him the stone. Was he trying to keep it from the parshendi and was frazzled due to the fall/beating/having a chunk of wood through his chest? Or was he attempting to keep it from the Ghostbloods? 

I think he was attempting to keep it from the Ghostbloods.  I can't exactly put my finger on why, but Jasnah somewhat corroborates this towards the end of the Way of Kings:

"...then the Parshendi could hold the key to turning ordinary parshmen into soldiers...And we need to do it before someone else does, then uses it against us."  This is what she says right before she reveals the existence of the Ghostbloods and their symbol to Shallan.  Additionally, we know during WoR that the Ghostbloods were very interested into getting to Urithiru and how far the Sons of Honor had progressed in their own search for the Voidbringers and Urithiru.  I get the feeling that the Ghostbloods have something very interesting up their sleeve with regards to a Desolation, but I haven't sat down to really work that out onto paper.  To put it simply, it wouldn't surprise me to discover that they've discovered a means of harnessing Voidbinding in some manner.

 

That said, on the subject of the sphere itself, I still current stand by my past statement that the black sphere is utilized by the Unmade in some manner (specifically, that spheres like it extend their reach).  The real question is what's inside the sphere itself.  Is it a perfect gem, which is why it hasn't lost Investment?

[DrakeMarshall]

Hm... So black is the color of combined investitures?

That is... Interesting. That all but confirms that nightblood is not just a metal object that has been awakened with Nalthis powers... Some other shard's magic has likely touched nightblood.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Drake Marshall

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Drake Marshall said:

Hm... So black is the color of combined investitures?

That is... Interesting. That all but confirms that nightblood is not just a metal object that has been awakened with Nalthis powers... Some other shard's magic has likely touched nightblood.

I think it is a stretch at this stage to state that. Is it a possibility? Sure. Is it a likely possibility? There is still way too little info to support it. As put forward earlier, Ruin's color is black. Does that mean by extension by this WoB that it is all but confirmed that Ruin is a combination of investitures? Nope. So is it possible for Nightblood? Sure. Is it likely and all but confirmed? I think that is jumping the gun. 

[CaptainRyan]

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Is it a likely possibility? There is still way too little info to support it.

Evidence in favor:
- Nightblood produces black smoke that is known to be "corrupted" Investiture
- Black is the color of combined Investitures
- Nightblood is based on a different magic system's product (a Shardblade from Roshar)
- One of the main creators of Nightblood is known to have visited Roshar before making Nightblood
- This same creator is also known to be able to use Stormlight, Roshar's magic, to fuel certain aspects of Nalthis magic (though this is shown after Nightblood's creation)
- Nightblood has been referred to as a "robot spren" and a "broken Shardblade" by Brandon

I'd say that is some pretty compelling evidence that Nightblood is more than just Nalthis magic. I would not say it is "confirmed" but I think this is a pretty solid theory. @Drake Marshall's wording of "all but confirmed" is accurate if, perhaps, a bit exaggerated, in my opinion. 

[Pathfinder]

Evidence in favor:
- Nightblood produces black smoke that is known to be "corrupted" Investiture corrupted breaths which is nalthis investiture
- Black is the color of combined Investitures as stated, does that automatically mean Ruin is as well? How about clothing that is black? Just because black the color of combined investiture does not mean anything with a black color is combined investiture
- Nightblood is based on a different magic system's product (a Shardblade from Roshar) it is based on roshar, made from nalthis. a benz and a lamborgini may both be cars, but it does not mean the companies teamed up to make them 
- One of the main creators of Nightblood is known to have visited Roshar before making Nightblood again, all that means is he drew inspiration for the idea. does not automatically mean they are combined. Seons would function similarly to spren if brought to Roshar. Does that mean they are combined investiture? no.  
- This same creator is also known to be able to use Stormlight, Roshar's magic, to fuel certain aspects of Nalthis magic (though this is shown after Nightblood's creation) by your own admittance, it is after nightbloods creation. that does not intrinsically mean they are linked
- Nightblood has been referred to as a "robot spren" and a "broken Shardblade" by Brandon this is again because Vasher sought to emulate it using his own world's investiture. The broken shardblade comment was due to why it seemed to act differently. 

again i am not saying it is impossible. It is possible. But I take issue with the phrase "all but confirmed." It would be the equivalency of me saying it rained on sunday, so it is all but confirmed that it will rain every sunday. There is not a direct correlation between the two though it may appear to be. 

edit: another example. Well black is combined investiture. The black smoke nightblood emits is known as corrupted investiture. Then it is all but confirmed that all combined investiture is corrupted investiture! 

Edited July 22, 2016 by Pathfinder

[CaptainRyan]

@Pathfinder As fun as it would be to squabble with you I will just unfollow this thread. You obviously have a different point of view and I am too hungry at the moment to deal with your sarcasm and off-base analogies.

[Nalan'elin]

Im with @PatrickStar on this one the "Unmade in a box" Theory seems so cool. A long stretch but it would be awesome if yelig'nar just busts out of the black sphere lool.
 

[galendo]

Well, I guess there is a bit more circumstantial evidence for the "sphere contains Blightwind" theory than I first thought, but upon reflection it kind of seems a bit anticlimactic.  Like, how threatening can the Unmade possibly be if some random Alethi king can stuff one of them inside a sphere?  Or was Yelig-Nar just stupid enough to get himself stuck in some random sphere all by himself?  Again, not very threatening.

Granted, there is a line in the Diagram about how "many of [the Unmade] are mindless", but always figured this was one of the things that Mr. T. was wrong about.  I certainly hope so.  I would like my ancient, evil spren to be scarier antagonists than that, thank you.

[Erklitt]

2 hours ago, galendo said:

I would like my ancient, evil spren to be scarier antagonists than that, thank you.

[thegatorgirl00]

13 hours ago, galendo said:

Well, I guess there is a bit more circumstantial evidence for the "sphere contains Blightwind" theory than I first thought, but upon reflection it kind of seems a bit anticlimactic.  Like, how threatening can the Unmade possibly be if some random Alethi king can stuff one of them inside a sphere?  Or was Yelig-Nar just stupid enough to get himself stuck in some random sphere all by himself?  Again, not very threatening.

Granted, there is a line in the Diagram about how "many of [the Unmade] are mindless", but always figured this was one of the things that Mr. T. was wrong about.  I certainly hope so.  I would like my ancient, evil spren to be scarier antagonists than that, thank you.

Unless he wants to be there. If he can affect Szeth and others from inside the sphere, that means he had access to affect one of the most powerful men in Roshar and no one suspected a thing. 

Edit: It occurs to me that if this is true, it might give new meaning to his desire that they not get the sphere. Perhaps he thought if a random assassin was affected by an unmade, it would be less harmful than the next Alethi ruler. Clearly that turned out to be wrong, but he couldn't have known what Szeth would go on to do. 

Edited July 23, 2016 by thegatorgirl00