The Thread of Minor Theories

[Pagerunner he/him]

Here's a minor theory. SA has 10 flashback characters, 10 KR orders. But, how can we have one character from each Order, if both Shallan and Ash are associated with Lightweavers? Simple: Ash bonds a spren of either the Dustbringers, Willshapers, or Stonewardens. (I'd guess Willshapers. Is-He-Taln-Or-Not probably takes Stonewardens, and Eshonai seems like more of a Dustbringer than a Willshaper.)

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

Here's a minor theory. SA has 10 flashback characters, 10 KR orders. But, how can we have one character from each Order, if both Shallan and Ash are associated with Lightweavers? Simple: Ash bonds a spren of either the Dustbringers, Willshapers, or Stonewardens. (I'd guess Willshapers. Is-He-Taln-Or-Not probably takes Stonewardens, and Eshonai seems like more of a Dustbringer than a Willshaper.)

cool Idea but really I don't know if an Herad may bond a Spren....of course some Herald in the books may lost whatever made them different by a standard Human....(Ash-fired-theory ? XD)

[Rasarr she/her]

6 hours ago, Pagerunner said:

Here's a minor theory. SA has 10 flashback characters, 10 KR orders. But, how can we have one character from each Order, if both Shallan and Ash are associated with Lightweavers? Simple: Ash bonds a spren of either the Dustbringers, Willshapers, or Stonewardens. (I'd guess Willshapers. Is-He-Taln-Or-Not probably takes Stonewardens, and Eshonai seems like more of a Dustbringer than a Willshaper.)

I'd be more inclined to say that Ash becomes a Dustbringer and Eshonai will be a Willshaper. Willshapers are described as loving adventures and novelties; Eshonai has spent her youth travelling and mapmaking, and was the first to contact humans, which would also fit with Willshapers' supposed "affinity to spren", i.e. capability to negotiate with beings of other culture and species. On the other hand, Ash with her penchant for destruction fits with what little we know about Dustbringers. 

@Yata - I'm guessing that with Ash having broken the Oathpact, it's quite likely she's got a gaping hole in her spiritweb where her bond with Honor (or whatever made her a Herald) used to be that would fit any spren who'd wish to associate itself with her.

[Yata he/him]

7 hours ago, Rasarr said:

 

@Yata - I'm guessing that with Ash having broken the Oathpact, it's quite likely she's got a gaping hole in her spiritweb where her bond with Honor (or whatever made her a Herald) used to be that would fit any spren who'd wish to associate itself with her.

Yes but we don't know what give to the heralds the immortality and other Heralds-related features...probably they are yet high Invested beings with different rules.

PS: I have an idea about the Herald to be immortal superhuman before Honor ask them help with the Oathpact and giving them the Honorblades...but it's another minor theory XD

[zeppomarks]

Tiny one, probably obvious: If Elendel is named after Elend and Vindiel is named after Vin, it stands to reason that Luthadel is named after a man. For awhile I assumed Lutha (or maybe, but unlikely, Luthad?) was female due to the "a" at the end, but the naming convention seems to imply the opposite.

[zeppomarks]

So a thought just popped into my head. Y'all know how a bonded spren can turn into a shardblade and a bunch of other useful stuff? What if all the standard shardblades were spren that had taken that form for the Knights Radiant they had bonded with, and then the Knights Radiant took the sprens' measurements to lock them in place like in Garanid's Interlude chapter and then hid away the measurement somewhere? That would be why those shardblades scream and that might explain exactly how the Knights Radiant betrayed the spren and why the Stormfather is so miffed with humans. Hm, just a thought.

[Djarskublar he/him]

1 hour ago, zeppomarks said:

So a thought just popped into my head. Y'all know how a bonded spren can turn into a shardblade and a bunch of other useful stuff? What if all the standard shardblades were spren that had taken that form for the Knights Radiant they had bonded with, and then the Knights Radiant took the sprens' measurements to lock them in place like in Garanid's Interlude chapter and then hid away the measurement somewhere? That would be why those shardblades scream and that might explain exactly how the Knights Radiant betrayed the spren and why the Stormfather is so miffed with humans. Hm, just a thought.

They scream because they are 'dead.' The Radiants abandoning their oaths killed the spren's sapience sorta... Dunno how to explain that. The measurements may still apply though. That would explain why they are all in Blade form. They were measured when in that state. I don't think it's likely, but I like the idea. Good thinking.

[zeppomarks]

4 hours ago, Djarskublar said:

They scream because they are 'dead.' The Radiants abandoning their oaths killed the spren's sapience sorta... Dunno how to explain that. The measurements may still apply though. That would explain why they are all in Blade form. They were measured when in that state. I don't think it's likely, but I like the idea. Good thinking.

Thanks. Yeah, I remember when they talked about that, but I've learned to take anything said in an early novel in a Brandon Sanderson series with a grain of salt, cause anything can change. But if they're stuck in that form they could probably still experience a spren death, or "spreath" as I'm going to call it from now on. lol.

[Jondesu he/him]

11 hours ago, zeppomarks said:

So a thought just popped into my head. Y'all know how a bonded spren can turn into a shardblade and a bunch of other useful stuff? What if all the standard shardblades were spren that had taken that form for the Knights Radiant they had bonded with, and then the Knights Radiant took the sprens' measurements to lock them in place like in Garanid's Interlude chapter and then hid away the measurement somewhere? That would be why those shardblades scream and that might explain exactly how the Knights Radiant betrayed the spren and why the Stormfather is so miffed with humans. Hm, just a thought.

Brandon's said fairly explicitly that they're in blade form because they modeled themselves after the Honorblades, so they sort of reverted that form when they "died".  However… I wonder if the concept of resurrecting a dead blade could be significantly affected/hampered by the fact that they've been recorded in detail by Shallan (if not by other scholars before, who have certainly kept records even if they weren't up to Shallan's standards)?  What if a Blade is resurrected only to be unable to change shape, or even leave Blade form, because it's been measured like that?

jW

[zeppomarks]

@Jondesu I'm rereading WoK right now and I totally forgot that Shallan records a bunch of Shardblades in WoR. I think you're onto something there. I was trying to find significance in the Garanid interlude, but perhaps my assumption went the wrong direction in time? Maybe it's not a clue so much with what happened in the past but will end up being a clue for the future? It still doesn't make sense to me why they would stay shardblades when they die, just because they were imitating honorblades. I feel like there's got to be more to it than that.

[Argel he/him]

What if Shallan drew the blade like it was alive again -- maybe that would help make it so?

[WeiryWriter he/him]

On 8/19/2016 at 11:49 AM, Pagerunner said:

Here's a minor theory. SA has 10 flashback characters, 10 KR orders. But, how can we have one character from each Order, if both Shallan and Ash are associated with Lightweavers? Simple: Ash bonds a spren of either the Dustbringers, Willshapers, or Stonewardens. (I'd guess Willshapers. Is-He-Taln-Or-Not probably takes Stonewardens, and Eshonai seems like more of a Dustbringer than a Willshaper.)

The answer is that the Flashback character is not always going to be a member of the Order that is being focused on. There was that pattern for WoK and WoR but it will not hold for every book. (And there is WoB on this, just don't have it on hand at the moment.)

[Pagerunner he/him]

43 minutes ago, WeiryWriter said:

The answer is that the Flashback character is not always going to be a member of the Order that is being focused on. There was that pattern for WoK and WoR but it will not hold for every book. (And there is WoB on this, just don't have it on hand at the moment.)

Don't worry, I've seen it already. I'll admit, I had forgotten about it when I posted the idea, but to me the pattern still seems too strong to ignore. With 10 'main characters,' we know 6 of them correspond to 6 different orders (assuming that there's nothing devious going on with Renarin), and then there are strong implications that Szeth will become a true Skybreaker (7 of 7) and not-as-strong implications that Eshonai will join an Order.

The quote in question says that the main character won't match the Order being explored in the book. It does not deny that each of the main characters belongs to a different KR order. Subtle distinction, and one that gives Brandon the freedom to mix things up if he wants to (Like how the list of main characters once included Navani, Adonlin, and Taravingian in place of Eshonai, Lift, and Renarin!). At one point, he even discussed possibly giving Kaladin a second book, didn't he? So, I don't think it's necessarily essential that each character represent an Order. But the main character list has continued to change up, and it's possible one of the reasons for Brandon's choices is to get one main character from each KR order.

It's more an intriguing possibility that's been tickling my mind and would provide some nice symmetry, along with a subversion for Ash's character (was the Herald of one Order, now a member of a different one, something that I found intriguing when something similar was done for a supporting character in the Wheel of Time). But, overall, It's not something I'll defend to the grave. This is the thread of minor theories, after all.

[Incidentally, I just stumbled across a WoB that says Adolin's blade used to belong to an Edgedancer. To carry on my suspicion of 10MC=10KR, that could mean Adolin was replaced as a main character by Lift. I think Eshonai replaced Navani in the front 5, so they might share an Order. Renarin might have replaced Taravingian, meaning that T could become a Truthwatcher. I gotta do some more digging, see if any of them were mentioned in any of the same lists. I might even make a crazy-person diagram of when Brandon referred to each character as being a main character to determine when he made each switch, but that doesn't seem like it would serve any useful purpose. But why would a little thing like that stop me?.]

[zeppomarks]

Time for more pointless hypotheses! 

Do you all think that the shards of the Cosmere will eventually come back together, controlled by a single entity, or will they simply balance out in the end controlled by, say, 10 entities (since 10 and 16 seem to be the numbers of choice in the Cosmere) a la Harmony? Or is there some other possibility? I'm not sure what could balance Odium. Maybe Honor. But Odium seems too unwieldy to be balanced by anything. Like, how do you temper hatred without eliminating it? Combine Honor and Odium and what would you get? Justice, maybe? A shard of Righteous Indignation? I don't know, thinking aloud. What do y'all think?

Also, who, if anyone, do you think will get the shard of Honor in the end? Dalinar seems like the most likely candidate, with Kaladin taking second place. However, Mistborn Era 1 shattered my ability to assume my assumptions to be correct. Although, I could see Kaladin getting the shard of Righteous Indignation. He has enough Honor and Odium to be able to justify it. Thoughts, considerations, half rotten fruit to throw? I'm accepting all submissions.

[maxal she/her]

3 hours ago, WeiryWriter said:

The answer is that the Flashback character is not always going to be a member of the Order that is being focused on. There was that pattern for WoK and WoR but it will not hold for every book. (And there is WoB on this, just don't have it on hand at the moment.)

But he also said the MC were the flashback characters, so it is getting confusing... It may be the second arc is different or the WoB you refer to merely applies itself to the dead flashback character book. 

He said the pattern wouldn't repeat itself, but he wants to refer to each book as being "XYZ character's book". I think the right question to ask would be: "Will the flashback character always been the primary main character in his given book?" In other words, is being the flashback character a guarantee this character has a role within all parts of the main narrative? Or is the focus Order always the one associated with the character occupying the rank of "primary main character" is any given book?

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

Don't worry, I've seen it already. I'll admit, I had forgotten about it when I posted the idea, but to me the pattern still seems too strong to ignore. With 10 'main characters,' we know 6 of them correspond to 6 different orders (assuming that there's nothing devious going on with Renarin), and then there are strong implications that Szeth will become a true Skybreaker (7 of 7) and not-as-strong implications that Eshonai will join an Order.

The quote in question says that the main character won't match the Order being explored in the book. It does not deny that each of the main characters belongs to a different KR order. Subtle distinction, and one that gives Brandon the freedom to mix things up if he wants to (Like how the list of main characters once included Navani, Adonlin, and Taravingian in place of Eshonai, Lift, and Renarin!). At one point, he even discussed possibly giving Kaladin a second book, didn't he? So, I don't think it's necessarily essential that each character represent an Order. But the main character list has continued to change up, and it's possible one of the reasons for Brandon's choices is to get one main character from each KR order.

It's more an intriguing possibility that's been tickling my mind and would provide some nice symmetry, along with a subversion for Ash's character (was the Herald of one Order, now a member of a different one, something that I found intriguing when something similar was done for a supporting character in the Wheel of Time). But, overall, It's not something I'll defend to the grave. This is the thread of minor theories, after all.

[Incidentally, I just stumbled across a WoB that says Adolin's blade used to belong to an Edgedancer. To carry on my suspicion of 10MC=10KR, that could mean Adolin was replaced as a main character by Lift. I think Eshonai replaced Navani in the front 5, so they might share an Order. Renarin might have replaced Taravingian, meaning that T could become a Truthwatcher. I gotta do some more digging, see if any of them were mentioned in any of the same lists. I might even make a crazy-person diagram of when Brandon referred to each character as being a main character to determine when he made each switch, but that doesn't seem like it would serve any useful purpose. But why would a little thing like that stop me?.]

Adolin never was a main protagonist, I do not know why Brandon said he may do a book on him (it was a long time ago) as other answers he has given indicate he never really intended to. Renarin has always been the "important brother", we have a WoB which explains how Adolin was supposed to die early on as Renarin was the "important one". Adolin was not replaced by Lift as he was never supposed to be a character to begin with: Brandon refers to him as a "unexpected pleasant surprise". Writing Adolin was never within the plan nor was him reviving his Blade: this arc, if it happens, is something he probably design to give the character something to do which would interest the readers.

The subversion of Ash seems probable considering the planning, but I feel a subversion which is announced in bright big letters a decade before it happens loses much of its significance. I would thus admit this one sounds like a Red Herring. In fact, I want it to be a Red Herring because there is foreshadowing and there is... spilling out your beans too early in advance. 

It is hard to get a clear idea of how it will pan out, but we must be ready to assume the 10 MC aren't 10 KR. There may be orders with no MC to champion them: Dustbringers seem a very strong candidate for this to happen.

[zeppomarks]

Another one.

I know it's been put forth that there were probably only 9 desolations in the past, and I think this theory has a lot of merit and is probably correct. But I noticed that it's often, possibly always, enumerated in the book as "ninety and nine desolations". It seems unlikely, but do you all think that the "ninety" could be in reference to something else? It's probably just an edit made by Vorin Ardents, but the phrasing could imply more. Maybe a translation error made a long time ago? Maybe something removed to obscure information? "Ninety [redacted] and nine desolations." I know I'm probably looking deeper into it than is necessary but, if y'all haven't noticed yet, that's kinda my jam. lol

[PallonianFire he/him]

1 hour ago, maxal said:

He said the pattern wouldn't repeat itself, but he wants to refer to each book as being "XYZ character's book". I think the right question to ask would be: "Will the flashback character always been the primary main character in his given book?" In other words, is being the flashback character a guarantee this character has a role within all parts of the main narrative? Or is the focus Order always the one associated with the character occupying the rank of "primary main character" is any given book?

I think the fact that he's said he's comfortable with having the flashback character already be dead by the time the book rolls around discounts this.

[maxal she/her]

25 minutes ago, PallonianFire said:

I think the fact that he's said he's comfortable with having the flashback character already be dead by the time the book rolls around discounts this.

On this regards, he said the following:

I have said many times before that Renarin and Lift are main characters for the next five, but--as you point out--I've also said that I have no problem having a main character who is actually dead, and their story told through flashbacks and the stories of the other characters. Renarin is not safe, but you will see a lot more from him in the future, even if he does die.

To say more would be to give too many spoilers about the nature of the back five books.

Therefore, you may be dead and still be considered a main character. Since he mentions he doesn't mind if this character story is told through flashbacks only, he then re-confirms the 10 MC indeed are the 10 flashback characters. My understanding is there won't be 10 KR, but several KR, both major and minor which will evolve all through the series. We may not get one MC per Order.

How can a character be called "main character" if his story merely is told from both flashbacks and third person's perspective, I have no idea at all. It defies the planning which wants one character to be labeled "primary main character". So far, Brandon has not open the door for any character nor being a flashback one to be one of the top tier characters of any given book. 

No matter how I shuffle it, I personally find it very confusing. 

 

[Jondesu he/him]

58 minutes ago, zeppomarks said:

Another one.

I know it's been put forth that there were probably only 9 desolations in the past, and I think this theory has a lot of merit and is probably correct. But I noticed that it's often, possibly always, enumerated in the book as "ninety and nine desolations". It seems unlikely, but do you all think that the "ninety" could be in reference to something else? It's probably just an edit made by Vorin Ardents, but the phrasing could imply more. Maybe a translation error made a long time ago? Maybe something removed to obscure information? "Ninety [redacted] and nine desolations." I know I'm probably looking deeper into it than is necessary but, if y'all haven't noticed yet, that's kinda my jam. lol

Woah, where did that theory come from? I've never heard it before...I always assumed there had been 99 and they told everyone that was all there would ever be (me, I'd be assuming there should be 100 and be really worried, but it's been thousands of years so it's no surprise they're not worried.

jW

[zeppomarks]

@Jondesu That's a good question, actually. I read it a couple days ago and now I can't for the life of me find it. I can't even remember who put it forth to give them credit... Maybe someone else on here can remember.

But basically the theory came down to time. The facts we know are that Desolations have been known to kill off ~90% of Roshar's population, set technology back an age (bronze to iron or iron to stone), and at least one lasted 11 years.

Given the time that it would take to repopulate and readvance in tech, each Desolation has to have at least 1000 years between them. I don't remember how the length of Desolations fit into it, but I remember they were a part of it. But if each Desolation was separated by ~1000 years then 99 Desolations plus the time since the Heralds dipped out means that Odium has been assaulting Roshar for over 100,000 years. Which means that Dominion and Devotion died over 100,000 years ago, too. Adonalsium would have had to be broken 100k+ years ago. It's likely Scadrial would have been created around the same time (or at the most several thousand years afterward), but then some how taken all that time to get to steam engines (apparently there's WoB that they were entering the industrial age prior to TLR) even though it only took them ~340 years to go from a renaissance-esque age to full on industrial.

The whole timescale just reads false if there had actually been 99 Desolations.

If there were only 9, the timeline would be far more manageable, the True Desolation would be Desolation numero 10 (and we all know how Roshar is with 10s), and some other stuff that I can't really remember... I really wish I knew where that post was. That person's argument was far more detailed and elegant than this Quasimodo of logic.

The theory went on to postulate that the reason everyone thinks there have been 99 Desolations is because during the Hierocracy the Ardents were like, "'9' is a doodoo number... No symmetry whatsoever! How about '99'? Yeah? Better? Sweet, done and done. Let's get lunch. No braised longroot this time. Didn't stop '9'ing for an hour. Get it? Cause '9' is doodoo? Like what I said earlier? Ha! Ardent humor is the bees knees." Ahem... The trascript for that conversation went a little long...

Anywho, that was the general, horribly-mutilated gist of the theory. Someone's theory. Not mine. Mine aren't nearly as well thought out or plausible.

[The One Who Connects he/him]

Not set in stone yet, but... Timeline

On the subject of time, what sort of time-frame does the use of "centuries" imply to you?

Quote

Even after all these centuries, Jezrien looked young, like a man barely into his thirtieth year.
. . .
Though he hadn't worn a crown in centuries, his royal manner lingered.

From TWoK Prelude

I assume that Jezrien was a King before being made a herald, if this is wrong feel free to correct me. This could actually give a timescale for the span of Desolations.

Edited August 23, 2016 by The One Who Connects

[Jondesu he/him]

I'd been presuming that with the knowledge of the Heralds to get them on the right track, it took somewhere closer to a couple hundred years to rebuild (they seem to often not be anywhere to close what we see, and need to be taught even some basics, when the next Desolation nears).  I don't know for sure how much that messes with the math though.

jW

[zeppomarks]

31 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Not set in stone yet, but... Timeline

On the subject of time, what sort of time-frame does the use of "centuries" imply to you?

I assume that Jezrien was a King before being made a herald, if this is wrong feel free to correct me. This could actually give a timescale for the span of Desolations.

Interesting. I hadn't seen that before. Although, if that's the case then that would mean there would have been a Desolation every 60 years or so. Given how many people die in a Desolation, it seems impossible that Roshar could have repopulated fast enough between them. Granted, even at 9 Desolations they'd have one every 660-670 years if my math is right. Repopulation seems unlikely even on that scale.

But there's also this: https://www.facebook.com/groups/270545169744383/permalink/731811053617790/

19 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

I'd been presuming that with the knowledge of the Heralds to get them on the right track, it took somewhere closer to a couple hundred years to rebuild (they seem to often not be anywhere to close what we see, and need to be taught even some basics, when the next Desolation nears).  I don't know for sure how much that messes with the math though.

jW

Although, the Heralds go back after each Desolation to get tortured in Hell or where ever. The Knights Radiant might have been able to, assuming they knew any more about science then other Rosharan's, but I'm assuming they were in pretty rough shape after each Desolation.

[zeppomarks]

@Jondesu Finally found that Nine Desolations theory. Seems very plausible to me.

[Jondesu he/him]

32 minutes ago, zeppomarks said:

@Jondesu Finally found that Nine Desolations theory. Seems very plausible to me.

Just read through the most significant parts. I dunno, I'm not sold, though there's some good reasoning behind it. I wish we could get something out of Brandon that would help place something; how many years ago Adolnasium was shattered, how long the time of the Desolations lasted, etc. I think there were a lot of overestimates in that thread and assumptions we shouldn't be making, but it's always tough to say.

jW