[Mad Theory Time] Mraize's other Identity.

[Dahak]

In Chapter 88 of Words of Radience "The man who owned the Winds" there are only a limited number of characters who could fit the title.

Shallan can be ruled out by being female. Pattern for being a spren. Nightblood for being a sword. Adolin for not having any wind related powers and a back story that rules out him out has having been someone else previously.

Which pretty much leaves Mraize and Nalan. Nalan is the wrong herald to claim to ownthe winds, That would if it was refering to a Herald be Jezrien.

Mraize on the other hand is covered with scars, mildly inscruitable and has no background other than Iyatil was his babsk and unlike any modern vorin character thinks of the Radients as staid and conventional.

This is also the chapter where it is demonstrated that a dead body can be ressurrected if done fast enough.

Put this together and one possibility is when Odium killed Honor, someone (say Nalan) ressurected Talanvast's body afterwards. Due to Talanvast having had his shard splintered it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to suffer stigmatic scars and some degree of amnesia (Based on the Secret History of Mistborn there is reason to suspect being the avatar of a shard strips ones mind down.) thus leaving him in a state that could use a mentor.

Talanvast being a character who could have been said to have owned the winds since his cognitive shadow is the Stormfather.

Which would explain the point where Hoid refers to Talanvast as if he were still alive by the reasons he used to rule him out as a god.

 

This does of course mean I have reasons for thinking Mraize is either one of Rayse and Talanvast.

 

 

 

 

[Erklitt]

@Dahak I love mad theories, and I think you're really on to something!

Technically, the chapter title might refer to Szeth. He features in this chapter, and as the heading speaks in the past ('owned') he would qualify. But this short scene hardly deserves to determine the chapter heading, and so this indeed looks rather like a red herring.

Add FeatherWriter's old but recently remembered theory about SA telling the story of the afterlife, and the name of Mraize's organization: Ghostbloods. Whether he's really Tanavast I don't know; when Wit speaks about him in that epilogue he does so in the past tense. I would have taken Mraize for a dragon due to the fact that he reminds Shallan of Hoid. But I absolutely buy into your theory that he's someone revived, and that chapter title really refers to him.

[Alfa]

I checked who else was mentioned in the chapter, there are also Amaram and Taln, both of whom don't really fit.

But I have another thought - resurrection and the like being possible there is one more somehow easier explanation: Mraize is Jezrien. While the "man who owned the winds" fits to Tanavast, it fits to Jezrien much more. Also Mraize's appearance and manners are somehow regal, and - just like the other Heralds we've seen - he seems to be completely mad. Questionable is the point when he did stop sullying.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Alfa

[Erklitt]

54 minutes ago, Alfa said:

I checked who else was mentioned in the chapter, there are also Amaram and Taln, both of whom don't really fit.

Bu I have another thought - resurrection and the like being possible there is one more somehow easier explanation: Mraize is Jezrien. While the "man who owned the winds" fits to Tanavast, it fits to Jezrien much more. Also Mraize's appearance and manners are somehow regal, and - just like the other Heralds we've seen - he seems to be completely mad. Questionable is the point when he did stop sullying.

Had the exact same thought. Said sullying made me discard it - that and the fact that I really like the 'resurrected' idea and Jezrien hasn't died (latest desolation at least). But who knows...

Edited July 15, 2016 by Erklitt

[goody153]

It's probably Jezrien or maybe it's Nale(though extremely unlikely but skybreakers technically also own the winds, like you know being the only other radiant capable of surge of gravitation)

I certainly hope that Tanavast is dead that wouldn't feel right. The theme of god(Honor) being dead is already pretty cool and makes Stormlight much better.

Also Odium seems like isn't really the type to be sloppy and he probably made sure Tanavast is pretty much dead and the shard of Honor cannot be taken up in normal means(like Vin ascending).

[What's a Seawolf?]

I had the same questions about the title when re-reading that chapter recently.  At the time I assumed Nalan, because he does have the 'flying' part of the Windrunner abilities, and because he seems like he could be set up to be a foil to Kaladin, former Herald gone mad who abuses the law.

But I like the concept of it being Mraize.  Always thought of him as an offworld type though, someone from another planet that's worldhopped to Roshar.

[Elendtheking]

I think it refers to kaladin. In the same chapter, Szeth thought about what Kaladin had told him ("You are a coward") and he reffered to him as"the man who owned the winds".

[Yata]

Tanavast wasn't resurrected... We know his Cognitive Shadow merged with a Spren to made the Stormfather. Therefore it's impossible for him to be Mraize or any other physical being... Tanavast is already in the book as the Spren knowed as Stormfather.

Edited July 15, 2016 by Yata

[Eki]

1 hour ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

Always thought of him as an offworld type though, someone from another planet that's worldhopped to Roshar.

I think there's a WoB about him being native to Roshar. He probably has worldhopped, though.

I don't remember what's in this chapter, but from just the title, I would assume it referred to Kaladin. Which chapter was this?

[What's a Seawolf?]

4 hours ago, Eki said:

I think there's a WoB about him being native to Roshar. He probably has worldhopped, though.

I don't remember what's in this chapter, but from just the title, I would assume it referred to Kaladin. Which chapter was this?

Chapter 88.

[Eki]

2 hours ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

Chapter 88.

Well, yeah, but what is it about? I don't have the book available. Sorry about the confusion!

[Erklitt]

39 minutes ago, Eki said:

Well, yeah, but what is it about? I don't have the book available. Sorry about the confusion!

Don't have the book at hand either right now, but checked the chapter out for other reasons recently, so have it in memory more or less:

A big part is Mraize confronting Shallan ('we know Veil is you, and you are still welcome to the Ghostbloods'). Then there's Amaram getting Taln out of the temple, and Nalan reviving and recruiting Szeth. Szeth remembers Kaladin as 'the man who owned the winds' who told him (Szeth) that he was a coward for killing against his wishes, just because he was commanded to do so. Kaladin himself doesn't make an appearance, iirc.

[Eki]

22 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

Don't have the book at hand either right now, but checked the chapter out for other reasons recently, so have it in memory more or less:

A big part is Mraize confronting Shallan ('we know Veil is you, and you are still welcome to the Ghostbloods'). Then there's Amaram getting Taln out of the temple, and Nalan reviving and recruiting Szeth. Szeth remembers Kaladin as 'the man who owned the winds' who told him (Szeth) that he was a coward for killing against his wishes, just because he was commanded to do so. Kaladin himself doesn't make an appearance, iirc.

OK, thanks for the recap! Seems most likely it refers to Kaladin, if Szeth used that line.

But it could refer to Szeth at the same time, like someone mentioned, because it's past tense and Szeth just lost the ability to Windrun.

[Erklitt]

8 minutes ago, Eki said:

OK, thanks for the recap! Seems most likely it refers to Kaladin, if Szeth used that line.

But it could refer to Szeth at the same time, like someone mentioned, because it's past tense and Szeth just lost the ability to Windrun.

Personally, I believe that is a classical red herring. Kaladin doesn't make any appearance personally, while in fact he features prominently as 'the man who owned the winds' in the previous chapter. Why then should this chapter be named for him, where he's not even on screen? And the Szeth scene is really short. All that makes me consider the theory that the heading really refers to Mraize all the more likely.

[Sam Script]

I believe it refers to Szeth as well, for that he used to be a Windrunner. If you feel that "because others don't correspond with the portrait of wind so it must be Mraize", I think that would be a big logical flaw.

Interesting deduction about reviving of Tanavast. However, it is, as you said, a really crazy theory, rather than believable.

Mraize acts offworld but he's a native Rosharan. He is one of the person least connected to wind something. Yes he's kinda mysterious so far, but it doesn't mean that all the mysterious stuff could just fit him. It would be nonsense.

Last but not least, the Chapter titles might not be definitely related to characters in-chapter. I think the point was kinda over-emphasized. It is possible to refer to Kaladin in former pages. But I would still believe it's Szeth for now.

[Erklitt]

10 hours ago, Sam Script said:

[...]

Last but not least, the Chapter titles might not be definitely related to characters in-chapter. I think the point was kinda over-emphasized. It is possible to refer to Kaladin in former pages. But I would still believe it's Szeth for now.

I disagree: Chapter headings are often extremely meaningful in SA, but at the very least they fit what's inside. Naming a chapter for a person who's not even indirectly relevant in that chapter would be extremely un-Brandon-like. And I don't see such a big relevance of Kaladin in that brief thought by Szeth. Szeth himself might be it and possibly is, in that case I think the Nalan scene must be foreshadowing something crucial. But I doubt it. As I said before: that smell of Red Herring stinks for a mile.

[Sam Script]

@Erklitt K then, Szeth would be the one. It was my mean. I just said Kal might be possible, but I prefer Szeth as well.

[Argel]

Quote

The Man Who Owned the Winds

Who was great at windrunning but isn't anymore because he just lost the honor blade that gave him those powers??

Quote

But Szeth's appearance is too short!!!  (paraphrased)

Yeah, but let's consider what we know from the book:

• Prior to Brandon's George Lucas moment, we actually see Szeth die on the page, so we go into this chapter knowing he is dead.
• Post revision, it's implied because of how powerful the storm is and how high up he is. Not to mention he wanted Kaladin to kill him. Anyway, the reader goes into this chapter believing he is dead with no reason to suspect otherwise. The change Brandon makes is to Kaladin's behavior.
• In this chapter, Nalan -- the Herald of Justice -- confirms Szeth died and explains how and why he resurrected him.
• Said Herald gives Szeth Nightblood!!
• It's the last scene of the chapter.

What we also know:

• Nightblood is the only invested object we currently know of that can reduce the amount of usable Investiture in the Cosmere. Vasher even kills his own wife to keep that method of Awakening a secret because he believes that knowledge is too dangerous.
• Szeth is getting his own SA book. It's in the first five, so either SA4 or SA5. Presumably that also means he will become a KR.

The obvious interpretation is that the chapter title refers to Szeth, and so far no one has offered a credible reason to believe otherwise. It ties in to what just happened to Szeth and foreshadows his return. Szeth's section is short, but it ends the chapter, and that alone gives it more weight. And the we find out one of the heralds has ressurected Szeth and given him one of the most dangerous magical weapons we know of in the Cosmere. And we know Szeth is getting his own SA book, so he's one of the ten most important characters in the series.

 

Edited July 16, 2016 by Argel

[Jondesu]

39 minutes ago, Argel said:

Who was great at windrunning but isn't anymore because he just lost the honor blade that gave him those powers??

I would actually take it from a different perspective, supporting the same conclusion:

Szeth owned the winds, a trespasser and unworthy one, but he was the only one who could master the skies (so far as people were aware).

Kaladin has claimed them for his own, and defeated Szeth completely.  Szeth no longer owns the winds.

jW

[Erklitt]

3 hours ago, Argel said:

Who was great at windrunning but isn't anymore because he just lost the honor blade that gave him those powers??

Yeah, but let's consider what we know from the book:

• Prior to Brandon's George Lucas moment, we actually see Szeth die on the page, so we go into this chapter knowing he is dead.
• Post revision, it's implied because of how powerful the storm is and how high up he is. Not to mention he wanted Kaladin to kill him. Anyway, the reader goes into this chapter believing he is dead with no reason to suspect otherwise. The change Brandon makes is to Kaladin's behavior.
• In this chapter, Nalan -- the Herald of Justice -- confirms Szeth died and explains how and why he resurrected him.
• Said Herald gives Szeth Nightblood!!
• It's the last scene of the chapter.

What we also know:

• Nightblood is the only invested object we currently know of that can reduce the amount of usable Investiture in the Cosmere. Vasher even kills his own wife to keep that method of Awakening a secret because he believes that knowledge is too dangerous.
• Szeth is getting his own SA book. It's in the first five, so either SA4 or SA5. Presumably that also means he will become a KR.

The obvious interpretation is that the chapter title refers to Szeth, and so far no one has offered a credible reason to believe otherwise. It ties in to what just happened to Szeth and foreshadows his return. Szeth's section is short, but it ends the chapter, and that alone gives it more weight. And the we find out one of the heralds has ressurected Szeth and given him one of the most dangerous magical weapons we know of in the Cosmere. And we know Szeth is getting his own SA book, so he's one of the ten most important characters in the series.

 

You're making a very good point !!!

I'm not completely convinced, and, if challenged, would still set my money on Mraize as the reason for the chapter heading. BUT: I repeat, you're making an extremely good point, and the rest is RAFO. I'm very interested in how this will play out.

[Argel]

RAFO? I already read ch 88 and the rest of WoR. You might give that a try sometime....  

 

[Erklitt]

5 hours ago, Argel said:

RAFO? I already read ch 88 and the rest of WoR. You might give that a try sometime....  

 

Guess the truth of it is I've read it too often . Szeth's resurrection is already too much of a commonplace fact in my mind. Imagining to read it again for the first time, being surprised by this scene... well, I think you have finally convinced me. (Sigh... I liked the Mraize idea.)

[Dahak]

On 15/07/2016 at 3:03 PM, Yata said:

Tanavast wasn't resurrected... We know his Cognitive Shadow merged with a Spren to made the Stormfather. Therefore it's impossible for him to be Mraize or any other physical being... Tanavast is already in the book as the Spren knowed as Stormfather.

I don't believe we know you need his cognitive shadow to reanimate his corpse. The Stormfather is mankinds idea of a god, which doesn't seem to be a necessary component for ressurrecting the man who was worn by the power of a shard of Adonalsium.

[Yata]

22 hours ago, Dahak said:

I don't believe we know you need his cognitive shadow to reanimate his corpse. The Stormfather is mankinds idea of a god, which doesn't seem to be a necessary component for ressurrecting the man who was worn by the power of a shard of Adonalsium.

A Man is made by Soul, Mind and Body. A Cognitive Shadow is made by Soul and Mind (he lost the body and the ties to the physical realm). I really doubt you may resurrect a man without retrive his Soul and Mind....well you may recreate a body, maybe also a living one... but it would be hollow.

About the Stormfather, He is the Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow together with another Spren. Maybe the Stormfather is manipulated by the Human's faith and ideas... But this don't remove the point that He is the host of Tanavast's Soul and Mind also if twisted.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Yata

[RYANHOME]

On 7/15/2016 at 8:27 AM, Elendtheking said:

I think it refers to kaladin. In the same chapter, Szeth thought about what Kaladin had told him ("You are a coward") and he reffered to him as"the man who owned the winds".

I'm with you all the way Elendtheking.