The Stone Shamans and the Faithful Order (Extended Version)

[Erklitt she/her]

I've updated my theory and fleshed it out some. I'm not sure what is the usual way: edit the OP or add one at the end? I've decided on the first option. The original, as it stood on July 15th, is at the end of this post.

So, here is Version 2, augmented with everything you guys contributed:

The One Faithful Order hides as (part of?) the Shin Stone Shamanate

(Page numbers in quotes are from kindle version and without guaranty. I think I have seen page numbers differ on different hardware, although they are independent on current kindle text size.)

We know from the in-world book ‘Words of Radiance’ that one order didn’t betray their oaths during the Recreance:

Spoiler

[...] but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine.

WoR Epigraph to Ch. 41 Scars p. 464

So this order still has to be there somewhere. Why do I think they are either identical with or part of the Stone Shamanate, the Shin leadership?

For starters, here are again the two most important quotes in full length. I’ll repeat small parts of them where needed, without repeating the source each time.

Spoiler

He had fought an impossibility. A man with Stormlight, a man who knew the storm within.  That meant ... problems. Years ago, Szeth had been banished for raising the alarm. The false alarm it had been said.
The Voidbringers are no more, they had told him.
The spirits of the stones themselves promised it.
The powers of old are no more.
The Knights Radiant are fallen.
We are all that remains.
All that remains. ... Truthless.
"Have I not been faithful?" Szeth shouted, finally looking up to face the sun. His voice echoed against the mountains and their spirit-souls. "Have I not obeyed, kept my oath? Have I not done as you demanded of me?"
The killing, the murder. He blinked tired eyes.
SCREAMS.
"What does it mean if the Shamanate are wrong? What does it mean if they banished me in error?"
It meant the End of All Things. The end of truth. It would mean nothing made sense, and that his oath was meaningless.
It would mean he had killed for no reason.

WoR Interlude 10 Szeth p. 709 (Q1)

 

 

Spoiler

"Who are you?" Szeth asked.
You spend this long obeying the precepts of your people and religion, yet you fail to recognize one of your gods?"
"My gods are the spirits of stones," Szeth whispered. "The sun and the stars. Not men."
"Nonsense. Your people revere the spren of the stones, but you do not worship them."
That crescent ... He recognized it, didn't he?
"You, Szeth," the man said, "worship order, do you not? You follow the laws of your society to perfection. This attracted me, though I worry that emotion has clouded your ability to discern. Your ability to ... judge."
Judgment.
"Nin," he whispered. "The one they call Nalan, or Nale, here. Herald of Justice."
Nin nodded.
"Why save me?" Szeth said. "Is my torment not enough?"
"Those words are foolishness," Nin said. "Unbecoming of one who would study under me."
"I don't want to study," Szeth said, curling up on the stone. "I want to be dead."
"Is that it? Truly, that is what you wish most? I will give it to you, if it is your honest desire."
Szeth squeezed his eyes shut. The screams awaited him in that darkness. The screams of those he'd killed.
I was not wrong, he thought. I was never Truthless.
"No," Szeth whispered. "The Voidbringers have returned. I was right, and my people ... they were wrong."
"You were banished by petty men with no vision. I will teach you the path of one uncorrupted by sentiment. You will bring this back to your people, and you will carry with you justice for the leaders of the Shin."

WoR Ch. 88 The Man Who Owned the Winds p. 1062 (Q2)

So, the reasons for this theory:

 

1. A Curious Wording

Spoiler

The Knights Radiant are no more. We are all that remains. (Q1)

The wording almost sounds like the second sentence is a shortened version of “We are all that remains of them.” This may not seem much to go by, but we know Brandon doesn’t do such things by accident.

 

2. Szeth knows where Urithiru lies

The home of the Knights Radiant was Urithiru. I would expect the one remaining order to have at least a tradition of where it lies, no matter where they are now. But who does? Everyone, it seems, is searching for it frantically: Jasnah Kholin, the Ghostbloods, the Sons of Honor.

Szeth, the lowly Shin, knows exactly where it is:

Spoiler

If he had not been bound to an Oathstone, if he had been another man entirely, he would have stayed here. The only place in the East where the stones were not cursed, were walking on them was allowed. This place was holy.

WoR Interlude 10 Szeth p. 708

 

3. Nalan has deadly business with the Shin leaders

Spoiler

You will bring this back to your people, and you will carry with you justice for the leaders of the Shin. (Q2)

I think most of us agree that Nalan is on a KR killing spree. So what is this about sending Szeth to the Shin leaders to bring judgment? Has he changed his agenda? Or is killing the Shamanate merely a logical step towards his happy KR-less world?

 

4. Minor oddities about the Shin

None of the following is very compelling, yet they are interesting facts that I think support rather than contradict the theory.

Spoiler

They held sapphires infused with Stormlight. Profane. How could the men of these lands use something so sacred for mere illumination?

WoK Prologue: To Kill p. 22

The Shin revere Stormlight. (They also revere stones, but I have no answer as to why they do that, at least none that has any relevance for this theory. Some good suggestions have been made in this thread http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/55011-odium-is-invested-in-the-very-stone/.) Anyway, their reverence for Stormlight could very well be connected to their leaders’ being KRs.

Spoiler

Still kneeling, Szeth looked up after the man. “You are right. My people have the other Honorblades, and have kept them save for millennia.”

WoR Ch. 88 The Man Who Owned the Winds p. 1064

They have the Honorblades. Strange distinction this, for such a backwater people.

 

 

So, which order is it?

 

After playing with ideas of Stonewardens, Lightweavers, Dustbringers and Truthwatchers  I have (almost to my own disappointment) come back to the most obvious choice: I think it really is the Skybreakers after all.

Most compelling for this I find Mraize’s words to Shallan:

Spoiler

Why did your brother seek out the Skybreakers?

WoR Ch. 88 The Man Who Owned the Winds p. 1056

So Mraize knows one order is still active and can be ‘sought out’. I don’t see why he should be wrong about their identity.

At first I thought such a discovery would kill my theory, because we see Nalan doing his thing with no connection whatsoever to the Shin. But looking more closely at Nalan and his dealings with Szeth, I have come to the conclusion that Nalan has withdrawn his patronage from the existing Skybreaker order. It’s not so big a leap when reading about how reluctant he was to take them on in the first place:

Spoiler

[…] Nalan’Elin betook himself to finally accept the Skybreakers who had named him their master, when initially he had spurned their advances and, in his own interests, refused to countenance that which he deemed a pursuit of vanity and annoyance; this was the last of the Heralds to admit such patronage.

WoR Ch. 43 The Ghostbloods (Epigraph)  p. 486

Instead, he’s planning his own, new version of them. An order of ‘Skybreakers’ who are not Knights Radiant. He cannot command spren, and no spren is waiting to bond with Szeth when Nalan recruits him.

In sending Szeth to bring judgment to the Shamanate, he plans to kill his own former order. Only so can the world be KR-free. And the whole thing makes even more sense now: He’s unlikely to find any legal grounds on which to hang the Shamans, they are pretty ‘legally minded’ themselves. So he needs a tool. Nightblood is perfect, because it can do what Nalan himself cannot: kill without legal conviction.

 

A few more things that fit:

Szeth recognizes Nalan from the ‘crescent’ in his face. I couldn’t find this mark on either his face in the chapter headings or the charcoal drawing in Elhokar’s palace – though in both cases that might be due to poor resolution on kindle. How about the printed version? If it’s not just a resolution problem, then this detail about his face isn’t widely known, and indeed, no one else seems to have recognized Nalan. Yet Szeth does. Do the Shin have a better memory of the physical attributes of the Skybreaker patron than the rest of the world? Why would they?

Though Nalan seems to refer primarily to Szeth as a person when he says ‘You worship order’ that conversation still leaves the impression that in a lesser degree this is true of the whole Shin people. Skybreaker influence on their ethics and beliefs? The harsh punishment of a Truthless: typical Skybreaker?

Anyway, that whole Truthless business: the following is supposition on my part, not facts gathered from the text. But it looks to me like the Stone Shamans (just like Nalan) are convinced that a resurrection of the old KR orders will bring back the Voidbringers and is therefore to be prevented at all costs. The Spirits of the stones have promised them the Voidbringers are gone, but either those spirits themselves named this condition or the Shamans don’t entirely believe them. So anyone showing symptoms of a bonding (which I think happened to Szeth and was duly reported by him as their law proscribes) is commanded to a life of murder, which will kill their spren by constantly going against life before death. To cover up any traces of true spren-induced surgebinding (while that lasts) they are given an Honorblade, with the positive side effect of making them more efficient killers. They may not kill themselves, because if they were too quick about that, acting before the spren has become mindless, that same willing-to-bond spren might choose another subject. Better make sure to be rid of such a spren by having the knight survive it.

 

 

Last topic: what do they look like?

 

I take back what I originally said about them having been assimilated with the Shin through ‘natural means’. That doesn’t make sense, because it would only work if older members of the order died and new ones were born. However, spren looking for new candidates would have no reason to limit themselves to descendants of the order. We haven’t yet exactly seen a Knight Radiant gene.

Maybe the original members are still alive, and no new ones are chosen. (It has been theorized that a full bonding could grant immortality; I believe there’s even a WoB.) Maybe new members chosen anywhere are led by their spren to join in Shinovar. Who said the Stone Shamans need to be born Shin? In case it is still the original members (which I think more likely), I can almost see them before me, ancient and hidden from most eyes, like the first generation of kandra on their balconies. 

 

 

Original Version:

Spoiler

I WoR, Interlude 10, a curious wording caught my attention.

Szeth muses about Kaladin's powers. Here are his thoughts:

Quote

He had fought an inpossibility. A man with Stormlight, a man who knew the storm within.  That meant ... problems. Years ago, Szeth had been banished for raising the alarm. The false alarm it had been said.
The Voidbringers are no more, they had told him.
The spirits of the stones themselves promised it.
The powers of old are no more.
The Knights Radiant are fallen.
We are all that remains.
All that remains. ... Truthless.

Has the possibility ever been considered (I could find nothing online) that the Shin stone shamante is what remains of the one faithful order?

For reference, here is that part of a 'Words of Radiance' epigraph that spoke about that order (WoR Ch.42 Scars):

Quote

[...] but this was only nine of the ten, as one said they would not abandon their arms and flee, but instead entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine.

Combining these two quotes, many things suddenly popped into place:

Without knowing anything about what Stonewards can do, the name alone seems to point clearly to this order.
[Edit] However, we know it's not them from Dalinar's Recreance vision (thanks @Yata). But it could be any order really that we don't know for certain has defected.
[Edit2] I'm wondering about the Truthwatchers, both from their discription in WoR (secretive...) and their obsession with truth as shown by the harsh punishment for someone who is seen as 'Truthless'. Though I'm not quite sure what to make of Renarin in this case... some spren of their order not liking what they've done with their heritage and starting over somewhere else?

Imagine the shamans as the lost order of Stonewards XY: it would explain the Shin's secretiveness and separatism, the shamanates fear of (and therefore resistance against) the idea of the KR returning. And of course their reverence for stone. Maybe even their strange powers to 'retrieve the honorblade'. It also makes it much less strange that this people should be in possession of the honorblades in the first place. Anyway, 'entertained great subterfuge at the expense of the other nine' just seems to fit the shamanate's mindset perfectly.

I'm not saying they were all Shin. I rather imagine them hiding among the Shin, mingling with them, dominating them spiritually. In that case, the foreign genetic influence from a mixed group like the order probably was would not be very noticeable 4000 years later.

 

Edited July 15, 2016 by Erklitt
Extended version!

[Yata he/him]

But the Stonewards are with the Windrunners the only Orders we saw break their Bonds are leave their Blade and Plate (Dalinar's vision).

Of course it's possible that the Stone Shamans (and the Shin but again, the Shin have too unique features on Roshar) are offspring of former Stoneward.

The interesting part to me is: " The spirits of the stones themselves promised it" as far as we may see... The Spren saw the Radiant's Oath Break like a betrayal... Therefore "who are those Spirit who talk with the Shin after the Recreance ?"

I like your idea... but I think the problem is more complex than that.

Edited July 12, 2016 by Yata

[Erklitt she/her]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

But the Stonewards are with the Windrunners the only Orders we saw break their Bonds are leave their Blade and Plate (Dalinar's vision).

Of course it's possible that the Stone Shamans (and the Shin but again, the Shin have too unique features on Roshar) are offspring of former Stoneward.

The interesting part to me is: " The spirits of the stones themselves promised it" as far as we may see... The Spren saw the Radiant's Oath Break like a betrayal... Therefore "who are those Spirit who talk with the Shin after the Recreance ?"

I like your idea... but I think the problem is more complex than that.

You're right about the Stonewards, thanks for the reminder. I had just searched through WoR and had forgotten the Recreance vision happened in WoK. So it's not them, but the only reason for that choice was the name anyway. I edited my theory.

So let's say it's another order. Dustbringers e.g. could have a special affinity to stones, too. But it really could be any order.

Concerning the Shin's unique features, I still believe that the time has been long enough for complete assimilation. Imagine a mixed group of Europeans, Native Americans and Africans having mingled with the Japanese people 1000 BC, or even with Australian Aborigines. I doubt you would be able to make out their traces today.

Regarding the problem being more complex: I think it's the other way round. There had to be something like this hiding in broad daylight. If there really was one faithful order, where are they? Why don't we see anything of their doings? It's hard to imagine them so passive, and I cannot recognize them in any of the secret societies we know about. Not even in conversations among conspirators where they discuss possible political players can I find any hint that anyone knows where that KR order is and what they are up to. The more I think about this, the more certain I become.

As for the spirits they talk to, I don't know. Their own spren weren't betrayed, so I think there's a possibility. But there may still be many powers on Roshar we know nothing about.

Of course, in the end, it all turns out as RAFO... 

Edited July 12, 2016 by Erklitt

[kaladamSB he/him]

I was always under the impression that the order who didn't abandon their oaths was Nalan and his Skybreakers seeing as how they are still active today. Would also kind of go along with their obsession with the law, kind of a never abandon your post kind of scenario. 

[Erklitt she/her]

On 13.7.2016 at 4:33 PM, kaladamSB said:

I was always under the impression that the order who didn't abandon their oaths was Nalan and his Skybreakers seeing as how they are still active today. Would also kind of go along with their obsession with the law, kind of a never abandon your post kind of scenario. 

As far as I know, that's one theory. Or is there a WoB about it? That would indeed be the death of my theory.

I always considered that theory as possible but not compelling. We only see Nalan himself and Szeth, no other Skybreaker. The way he goes about his crazy kind of justice doesn't look so different to me from the other heralds' insanity we've seen so far. And in his meeting with Szeth I think he's lying. He talks about Szeth becoming a Skybreaker, but I see no spren waiting to bond with him. And he calls Nightblood a Shardblade, which is a half truth at best. So, I'm not convinced the Skybreakers are active.

Do you have a source for anything definitive on this? I would appreciate it.

[Edit] Actually, @kaladamSB, I was wrong about the Skybreakers not being active. I had overlooked one quote: Mraize tells Shallan that 'her brother sought out the Skybreakers'. This seems indeed almost compelling evidence. Why should Mraize know about the one order still in existence yet be wrong about its identity?

I'm currently in the process of refining this theory, and integrating this fact among others. So, a late thanks!

Edited July 15, 2016 by Erklitt

[Argel he/him]

No, it's just a theory, and we have seen other Heralds around doing things (like talking to Elohkar in the flashback to the night of Gavilar's assassination). I think those skeptical of it being the skybreakers are expecting the leadership of the remaining order to be more sane. Also, the Skybreakers feel a bit too obvious, unless it's one of those things meant for even casual readers to have a shot at figuring out.

I'm leaning towards one of the existing organizations/factions we have seen, where the inner circle could be the remaining order, still operating in secret. Or alternatively, they mostly split up, functioning as very small sleeper agent cells. The Ardents could be good place to hide -- they have a lot of access and are kind of under the radar.

[Erklitt she/her]

1 hour ago, Argel said:

No, it's just a theory, and we have seen other Heralds around doing things (like talking to Elohkar in the flashback to the night of Gavilar's assassination). I think those skeptical of it being the skybreakers are expecting the leadership of the remaining order to be more sane. Also, the Skybreakers feel a bit too obvious, unless it's one of those things meant for even casual readers to have a shot at figuring out.

I'm leaning towards one of the existing organizations/factions we have seen, where the inner circle could be the remaining order, still operating in secret. Or alternatively, they mostly split up, functioning as very small sleeper agent cells. The Ardents could be good place to hide -- they have a lot of access and are kind of under the radar.

Do you have a favorite candidate? I'm thinking...

The Sons of Honor want to reestablish a Hierocracy. Doesn't exactly sound like a likely KR project to me.

The Ghostbloods seem to be a rather mixed-world organization, based on Mraize (his collection and his similarity to Hoid) and Iyatil. Of course the KRs could have allied themselves with worldhoppers. But if it were them, why the frantic search for Urithiru? Shouldn't they have a tradition of where it is?

The idea about hiding among the ardents is interesting. However, thinking about the ardents we've met so far, I find no likely candidate. Kabsal comes to mind for a moment, which would point again to the Ghostbloods. On the other hand, he never seems to have been a true ardent, at least not in Kharbranth.

Taravangian and the Diagram? That would mean that the 'faithful order' hasn't kept anything like a high ethical standard. (Same with the Ghostbloods). Otherwise, not impossible. Saving something of humanity would at least fit their ultimate goals.

Thinking this all through, I still find my suggestion more likely. All the more so since I just remebered Szeth knows Urithiru! Just checked: He hasn't just found a nice high tower by accident, he knows what it is. While the Sons of Honor and Ghostbloods are both searching.
 

Quote

If he had not been bound to an Oathstone, if he had been another man entirely, he would have stayed here. The only place in the East where the stones were not cursed, were walking on them was allowed. This place was holy.

From WoR Interlude 10

Still, I'm open to persuasion.

[Massik he/him]

If the Shin had anything to do with the KR, wouldn't they know that another desolation would come, and therefore a refounding of the KR would happen as well?

I am highly interested in who Szeth spoke of using stromlight, which had him named truthless, and where he goes next.  

Since he is reborn and taken under Nale's wing, he will essentially be aligned with those he was attmepting to kill under the Diagram's orders, no?  Chaos!

And what happens to those who named him truthless?  

 

Edited July 13, 2016 by Massik
typos

[Erklitt she/her]

14 hours ago, Massik said:

If the Shin had anything to do with the KR, wouldn't they know that another desolation would come, and therefore a refounding of the KR would happen as well?

I am highly interested in who Szeth spoke of using stromlight, which had him named truthless, and where he goes next.  

Since he is reborn and taken under Nale's wing, he will essentially be aligned with those he was attmepting to kill under the Diagram's orders, no?  Chaos!

And what happens to those who named him truthless? 

There are those who believe the desolation will not come again. Even the heralds seem to have hoped for that. (Jezrien to Kelek in the Prologue: "We'll tell them we won ... Who knows, maybe that will prove true?" (Quoted roughly from memory) I don't see why the faithful order shouldn't have the same hope.

As for to whom Szeth spoke, I think there's currently no better answer than 'The Stone Shamanate of Shinovar', whatever that is exactly. I'd guess their spritual leadership at least, maybe political as well. Some kind of ruling body.

I'm not sure Szeth, under Nalan's guidance, will align with whom he tried to kill before. Whatever Nalan's motives, he is evidently bent on killing the very KR that Dalinar is trying to gather. However, I have no doubt of Chaos !

This topic has really roused my curiosity. I've tried to find out what I could about the Shin beliefs (other than their reverence for stone). There's really not much to go by, most of it is in two passages. Everything else I could find just repeats part of what is found in those.

The first is the one the beginning of which I cited in my OP (WoR Interlude 10)

Spoiler

He had fought an inpossibility. A man with Stormlight, a man who knew the storm within.  That meant ... problems. Years ago, Szeth had been banished for raising the alarm. The false alarm it had been said.
The Voidbringers are no more, they had told him.
The spirits of the stones themselves promised it.
The powers of old are no more.
The Knights Radiant are fallen.
We are all that remains.
All that remains. ... Truthless.
"Have I not been faithful?" Szeth shouted, finally looking up to face the sun. His voive echoed against the mountains and their spirit souls. "Have I not obeyed, kept my oath? Have I not done as you demanded of me?"
The killing, the murder. He blinked tired eyes.
SCREAMS.
"What does it mean if the Shamanate are wrong? What does it mean if they banished me in error?"
It meant the End of All Things. The end of truth. It would mean nothing made sense, and that his oath was meaningless.
It would mean he had killed for no reason.

The second is in the scene between Szeth an Nalan (WoR Ch. 88 The Man Who Owned the Winds):

Spoiler

"Who are you?" Szeth asked.
You spend this long obeying the precepts of your people and religion, yet you fail to recognize one of your gods?"
"My gods are the spirits of stones," Szeth whispered. "The sun and the stars. Not men."
"Nonsense. Your people revere the spren of the stones, but you do not worship them."
That crescent ... He recognized it, didn't he?
"You, Szeth," the man said, "worship order, do you not? You follow the laws of your society to perfection. This attracted me, though I worry that emotion has clouded your ability to discern. Your ability to ... judge."
Judgment.
"Nin," he whispered. "The one they call Nalan, or Nale, here. Herald of Justice."
Nin nodded.
"Why save me?" Szeth said. "Is my torment not enough?"
"Those words are foolishness," Nin said. "Unbecoming of one who would study under me."
"I don't want to study," Szeth said, curling up on the stone. "I want to be dead."
"Is that it? Truly, tht is what you wish most? I will give it to you, if it is your honest desire."
Szeth squeezed his eyes shut. The screams awaited him in that darkness. The screams of those he'd killed.
I was not wrong, he thought. I was never Truthless.
"No," Szeth whispered. "The Voidbringers have returned. I was right, and my people ... they were wrong."
"You were banished by petty men with no vision. I will teach you the path of one uncorrupted by sentiment. You will bring this back to your people, and you will carry with you justice for the leaders of the Shin."

Several other questions come to mind:
- What exactly did Szeth tell them? What has he seen or felt?
- Who are the 'spirits (Shin) / spren (Nalan) of the stones' that promised the Voidbringers were no more?
- What is behind that whole 'truthless' business? What are the shamanate's motives for such punishment?
- What is Nalan planning?

I thought about this some more, trying to do so independently of my OP theory. This is what I would guess from the few hints we have:

The ShiSha (Shin Shamanate) hope that their 'spirits' (whoever those are, I have no idea) are right about the Voidbringers being gone for good, but they are not as sure as they claim. In fact they worry that certain events - e.g. a refounding of the KR - could lead to another desolation. In this I think they might be sitting in the same boat with Nalan. (There seem to be pretty different theories about cause and effect flying around among Sons of Honor, Shin, Honor himself etc.) Szeth saw or felt something - my guess would be he had a spren trying to bond with him. I have no idea how else he could have known about the Voidbringers' return years before it happened. And in that case, the punishment makes some sort of twisted sense: condemn the budding Radiant to a life of murder - he's certain to loose his spren that way (constantly going against life before death). Give him an Honorblade: helps him be a good murderer and will hide any real Radiant effect by overlaying it.

Whatever the reason, Shin and Nalan seem to agree that the KR are not wanted nowadays. So why does Nalan want to send Szeth to the Shamanate for judgment? ... And again, I revert to my OP. (I am a gal of one idea currently, it seems.) Nalan wants all KR dead. Including those belonging to that one remaining order. Nightblood would be an excellent tool for killing a whole group of people who have proven themselves not the most ethical of rulers.

What remains a mystery to me is the whole stone thing: the Shin's reverence for stone and their reluctance to walk on it, the 'Stone spirits'... haven't found any good explanation there yet.

Edited July 14, 2016 by Erklitt

[Stormgate he/him]

I did note that the Lightweavers speak Truths. When they have no more spren, what are they? Truthless.

[Erklitt she/her]

10 minutes ago, Stormgate said:

I did note that the Lightweavers speak Truths. When they have no more spren, what are they? Truthless.

Quite true (pun not intended). I thought about whether they might be 'the ones'. Problem is: iirc Pattern at one point speaks about dead / mindless cryptics after the Recreance. That would seem to show the Lightweavers weren't faithful either.

[Massik he/him]

4 hours ago, Erklitt said:

There are those who believe the desolation will not come again. Even the heralds seem to have hoped for that. (Jezrien to Kelek in the Prologue: "We'll tell them we won ... Who knows, maybe that will prove true?" (Quoted roughly from memory) I don't see why the faithful order shouldn't have the same hope.

As for to whom Szeth spoke, I think there's currently no better answer than 'The Stone Shamanate of Shinovar', whatever that is exactly. I'd guess their spritual leadership at least, maybe political as well. Some kind of ruling body.

I'm not sure Szeth, under Nalan's guidance, will align with whom he tried to kill before. Whatever Nalan's motives, he is evidently bent on killing the very KR that Dalinar is trying to gather. However, I have no doubt of Chaos !

 

 

 

No, I mean who did he see using stromlight, and not who did he talk to about it.  Obviously when he tells his people about it, they nake him truthless. 

At any rate, they hope another desolation never comes.  That's far from believing that there won't be another one.  It implies they think there will, IMO.

Nale only goes after those who broke the laws of the land.  This is why he gives up on Lift is let go.  She is pardoned.

Dalinar goes by a strict code, so I don't see him and Nale being at odds...  Rather, if the KR (and therefore their patron heralds) have to work together, I don't see a way around it.  

 

Edited July 14, 2016 by Massik

[Erklitt she/her]

58 minutes ago, Massik said:

No, I mean who did he see using stromlight, and not who did he talk to about it.  Obviously when he tells his people about it, they nake him truthless. 

At any rate, they hope another desolation never comes.  That's far from believing that there won't be another one.  It implies they think there will, IMO.

Nale only goes after those who broke the laws of the land.  This is why he gives up on Lift is let go.  She is pardoned.

Dalinar goes by a strict code, so I don't see him and Nale being at odds...  Rather, if the KR (and therefore their patron heralds) have to work together, I don't see a way around it.  

 

Whom did Szeth see using Stormlight? My guess would be himself, but I agree, it really could have been anyone.

As for the ShiSha's hoping rather than believing the Voidbringers are gone: totally agreed.

But I have a very different opinion of Nale. He's not after true justice, he's after Surgebinders. Only he still considers himself the herald of justice and won't act without any 'lawful claim'. He doesn't hunt criminals on any general scale; the only people he hunts are Surgebinders. And with them he'll go to great lengths to find some criminal act in their past to give him a 'legal reason' for his persecution. The way he drags out a very old case against Ym is proof of that. I'm sure there would be worse criminals for him to hunt if he had the mind. And he doesn't really pardon Lift; he just stops acting against her for the time being after his 'legal handhold' against her is voided - no doubt waiting for the next opportunity.

With Dalinar, of course Nale would never admit that it's Dalinar's advancement of KR's that he's at odds with. He'd certainly find 'better reasons' to act against him, and surely Dalinar's past is full of acts that would give Nale a handhold. There's no doubt in my mind he'd search for - and find - one.

[Erklitt she/her]

Edited the OP to a more fleshed out version. Becoming more and more convinced

[What's a Seawolf?]

I came into this topic intending to mention the possibility that the Skybreakers working with Nalan are not the actual Skybreakers (a point someone brought up on another site.)

But you already mentioned it.  I like that aspect.  We've seen numerous heralds go mad, it would be a nice addition to Nalan's madness that not only is he killing Surgebinders, but trying to recreate his lost order without Spren.

Which is why I love your idea that the real Skybreakers are actually the Shin, it would make Nalan that much more devious if he's sending Szeth to kill off the actual Skybreakers, as a way for Nalan to hide from the truth/past and realize his false reality.

 

So while I agree the Skybreakers probably are the order that didn't break their oaths, let me throw out a crazy idea.

The Dustbringers are the order that did not betray their oath.  I have basically nothing to support this, however:

1.  We know very little about the Dustbringers.

2.  I think it's fair to infer from Kalak's pov in the prologue that the Dustbringers were very effective at fighting the Voidbringers.  'The Dustbringers had done their work well.'  From this (and their abilities) I will extrapolate that the Dustbringers, (let's pretend as the chief 'big gun' to be used against Voidbringers,) had a certain love for fighting Voidbringers/battle and would not want to give this up.  (Perhaps because they were in the midst of the battles so often/lost so many of their members and did not want it all to be in vain.)

3.  Tying very nicely into your other theory, 'Odium is invested in the very stone,' the Dustbringers being the Shin further explains the Hallowed Stones.  Dustbringers can turn stone into dust, and being the chief Voidbringer battlers, would have a great appreciation for avoiding the stones that turned against them in battle so often.  The started the idea of not walking on stones as a way to keep people away from potential disaster.

 

None of that is based on much of anything, but just a fun idea that popped into my head.

[Erklitt she/her]

11 hours ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

I came into this topic intending to mention the possibility that the Skybreakers working with Nalan are not the actual Skybreakers (a point someone brought up on another site.)

But you already mentioned it.  I like that aspect.  We've seen numerous heralds go mad, it would be a nice addition to Nalan's madness that not only is he killing Surgebinders, but trying to recreate his lost order without Spren.

Which is why I love your idea that the real Skybreakers are actually the Shin, it would make Nalan that much more devious if he's sending Szeth to kill off the actual Skybreakers, as a way for Nalan to hide from the truth/past and realize his false reality.

 

So while I agree the Skybreakers probably are the order that didn't break their oaths, let me throw out a crazy idea.

The Dustbringers are the order that did not betray their oath.  I have basically nothing to support this, however:

1.  We know very little about the Dustbringers.

2.  I think it's fair to infer from Kalak's pov in the prologue that the Dustbringers were very effective at fighting the Voidbringers.  'The Dustbringers had done their work well.'  From this (and their abilities) I will extrapolate that the Dustbringers, (let's pretend as the chief 'big gun' to be used against Voidbringers,) had a certain love for fighting Voidbringers/battle and would not want to give this up.  (Perhaps because they were in the midst of the battles so often/lost so many of their members and did not want it all to be in vain.)

3.  Tying very nicely into your other theory, 'Odium is invested in the very stone,' the Dustbringers being the Shin further explains the Hallowed Stones.  Dustbringers can turn stone into dust, and being the chief Voidbringer battlers, would have a great appreciation for avoiding the stones that turned against them in battle so often.  The started the idea of not walking on stones as a way to keep people away from potential disaster.

 

None of that is based on much of anything, but just a fun idea that popped into my head.

Just for the record, that wasn't my theory about Odium being invested in the stones. I just followed it with interest. 

Indeed, the Dustbringers would make a lot of sense here. I'm still puzzled by this whole 'stones are holy' busyness, and by who those 'spitits / spren of the stones' are. Do they have their own agenda? Are they lying to the Shin? Or do they have a good reason not to want the KR returning?