Yata Posted June 29, 2016 Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 To be honest to me, this don't support and even contraddict your theory. Someone said "your body, mind and soul will be separated one will return to the earth, another to the Cosmere and one... I don't know (Beyond). To me the only way to make sense with this sentience is: The Body returns to the earth (well as in the real world), the Soul's Investiture will be reclycled returning to his right source (for example Harmony for a Scadrial guy) and the Mind will go to the Beyond... But it's just my interpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Posted June 29, 2016 Report Share Posted June 29, 2016 Hmm, so what if no one can interact directly with the SR? Do we have WoB that specifically rule that out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted June 30, 2016 Report Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, Argel said: Hmm, so what if no one can interact directly with the SR? Do we have WoB that specifically rule that out? Maybe I don't understand what you want to say. But many magics give to you some look (for example Atium) or some managing (for example Soul Forgery or Feruchemy) of the Spiritual Realm or at least of a specific subspace of the Spiritual Realm. We know also that Shards may stay in the Spiritual Realm and for there obtain their future sight...also a mortal may do it, well at least before his mind completely broke for the amount of Information. Also perpendicularities pierces all the three Realms therefore it's possible that someone may use them to worldhop in the Spiritual (but I don't think its a smart thing to do for him) Therefore mortal and higher being have access to the Spiritual Realm. Edited June 30, 2016 by Yata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farnsworth Posted July 2, 2016 Report Share Posted July 2, 2016 The sun could definitely be the Beyond, but wouldn't the Spiritual Realm have to be visible in some form from the Cognitive Realm? in SH, Spoiler When Kelseir is in the Cognitive Realm, he sees the Spiritual Realm as a "place that defies geometry", so he can clearly see it. If it's visible from the Scadrial Cognitive Realm, then shouldn't it be visible from the Roshar Cognitive Realm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegatorgirl00 Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 1 hour ago, Figberts said: The sun could definitely be the Beyond, but wouldn't the Spiritual Realm have to be visible in some form from the Cognitive Realm? in SH, Reveal hidden contents When Kelseir is in the Cognitive Realm, he sees the Spiritual Realm as a "place that defies geometry", so he can clearly see it. If it's visible from the Scadrial Cognitive Realm, then shouldn't it be visible from the Roshar Cognitive Realm? Leras has to show Kelsier the SR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted July 3, 2016 Report Share Posted July 3, 2016 11 hours ago, Figberts said: The sun could definitely be the Beyond, but wouldn't the Spiritual Realm have to be visible in some form from the Cognitive Realm? in SH, I have to be honest, there is a fact that to me seems to disprove the Cognitive Sun=Beyond (and it's not the methapor of Leras about the three Realms). If the Sun is a manifestation of the Beyond. The Strong pull of the Beyond will have a some kind of source (the sun) but instead the Beyond's pull seems to come from elsewhere. Of course this isn't a proof but if we puts together this with other little clue... To me the Sun of the Beyond becomes less likely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farnsworth Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 So would this mean the sun is the spiritual realm? That seems much more likely to me, because what I said earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 Have we ever 100% for certain seen someone physically in the SR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Argel said: Have we ever 100% for certain seen someone physically in the SR? As far as I remember the only beings stable in the Spiritual are the Shards...the only mortal that saw the Spiritual are Mortal pushed (for a while) in the Spiritual through magic or shards Edited July 4, 2016 by Yata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightspine Posted July 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2016 (edited) I found some new facts that may support my theory while rereading Elantris. There is a sideways picture on the wall of the building leading to Devotion's shardpool depicting an Elantrian falling into the Pool. The other side of the pool was described as being dark, except for a "large white sphere." The Pool is a perpendicularity into the Cognitive Realm, and the Elantrian was (supposedly) being thrown in as part of a funeral. That means the depicted sphere is the sun of the Cognitive Realm, and it may represent the afterlife. (Assuming of course that the picture showed a funeral). Remember that even the pre-Reod Elantrians likely had a grasp of realmatics. Edited July 7, 2016 by Lightspine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted July 8, 2016 Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 Pre-Reod Elantrians knowed a lot of Realmatic but in the end, the picture may be simple a rapresentation of Worldhopping through the Perpendicularity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightspine Posted July 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2016 11 hours ago, Yata said: Pre-Reod Elantrians knowed a lot of Realmatic but in the end, the picture may be simple a rapresentation of Worldhopping through the Perpendicularity. I know. That's why I said I was assuming it was a funeral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red032 Posted July 9, 2016 Report Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) On 23/06/2016 at 3:29 PM, Drake Marshall said: Hm... Yes, the spiritual realm makes sense. I don't remember where, but somebody once metaphorically described the three realms as the spiritual realm being the sun, the cognitive being the sky the sunbeam passes through, and the physical being the ground that gets illuminated, thus tangibly manifesting the other two. So it wouldn't be surprising if the actual sun in the cognitive realm is actually the spiritual realm. This description appears on The Secret History. I think Leras says it. Edited July 9, 2016 by red032 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted July 12, 2016 Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 On 4/07/2016 at 1:01 PM, Figberts said: So would this mean the sun is the spiritual realm? That seems much more likely to me, because what I said earlier. I'm inclined to think it's actually more specific than that, and that the sun is the cognitive manifestation of a Shard's spiritual power. We'll know if anyone makes their way into the Cognitive Realm on a world that doesn't have a Shard, or if Brandon chooses to answer a question about the cognitive realm's sun(s) without RAFOing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted July 12, 2016 Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 11 hours ago, Ari said: I'm inclined to think it's actually more specific than that, and that the sun is the cognitive manifestation of a Shard's spiritual power. We'll know if anyone makes their way into the Cognitive Realm on a world that doesn't have a Shard, or if Brandon chooses to answer a question about the cognitive realm's sun(s) without RAFOing it. It's possible (so far we know the Shards are the only being who actively extend in the Realms from the Spiritual Realm) for they to have some kind of "access point". But IF this is true... Probably the "Sun" is a visual amalaman of all the Shards power because the Scadrial's Sun description didn't fit to neither Ruin or Preservation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted July 12, 2016 Report Share Posted July 12, 2016 This theory is supported by the fact that shadows in the Cognitive Realm go the wrong way, being pulled by the Beyond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrakeMarshall Posted July 16, 2016 Report Share Posted July 16, 2016 (edited) Here's some irony... Things in the cognitive realm are referred to as cognitive shadows... A cognitive shadow with a shadow. Actually here is an interesting thought... So shards can't really access the great beyond apparently... So, if a soul of the dead ultimately goes someplace where a shard can't even access it... Does it sort of follow that a shard can't really create a soul any more than it can commune with a soul that has passed on? And yet ruin and preservation certainly created life on scadrial... Interesting considerations which I bet Sanderson has an interesting answer to... Edited July 17, 2016 by Drake Marshall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 It's specifically ghosts (ie. people's cognitive aspects that have overcome the pull to the Beyond after death) that are referred to as cognitive shadows. There's a bunch of non-shadow things in the Cognitive Realm, from Spren to Worldhoppers, to fires representing people's intelligence, to representations of ideas, such as Kelsier's collection of ideals of abandoned items in M:SH. Not trying to be too pedantic but we do honestly risk going down the wrong path a lot in this forum when we let definitions drift. (look at what happens whenever we start talking about Focuses, for instance) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, Drake Marshall said: Here's some irony... Things in the cognitive realm are referred to as cognitive shadows... A cognitive shadow with a shadow. Actually here is an interesting thought... So shards can't really access the great beyond apparently... So, if a soul of the dead ultimately goes someplace where a shard can't even access it... Does it sort of follow that a shard can't really create a soul any more than it can commune with a soul that has passed on? And yet ruin and preservation certainly created life on scadrial... Interesting considerations which I bet Sanderson has an interesting answer to... Actually as I understood. the Soul don't reach the Beyond, it's the mind who cross the realms and go Beyond. Therefore a Shard may create an object (the Soul) who later develops a trascendental part (a Mind) who may in some aspect go out of the Creator's control EDIT: Ari replied together with me, I didn't read his post when I wrote this Edited July 17, 2016 by Yata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrakeMarshall Posted July 17, 2016 Report Share Posted July 17, 2016 I also note that Brandon said Harmony "didn't know how to reach the beyond". This is a fairly tricky turn of phrase, because he isn't really saying for sure if other shards can in fact interact with the beyond... It's actually possible that they can interact with the beyond then. Which would make a lot more sense. As for the cognitive aspect and the soul... I suspect from my knowledge of realmatics that both go on to the beyond actually. The soul and mind seem to both be pretty integral parts in making up a sentient being and I don't think sending only one on would work out too well. Similarly I imagine Kelsier's cognitive shadow still had the soul attached to it, but the two were unpaired from his body when it died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yata Posted July 18, 2016 Report Share Posted July 18, 2016 (edited) 14 hours ago, Drake Marshall said: As for the cognitive aspect and the soul... I suspect from my knowledge of realmatics that both go on to the beyond actually. The soul and mind seem to both be pretty integral parts in making up a sentient being and I don't think sending only one on would work out too well. Similarly I imagine Kelsier's cognitive shadow still had the soul attached to it, but the two were unpaired from his body when it died. The Soul is made of raw Investiture (of Adonalsium or Shards) and when someone dies his Investiture have to be recycled or Preservation and Ruin (for example) are losing more and more of their power. While we know that their "power level" is the same from the old times. Edit: And much more we have Harmony's words about just one of Body/Mind/Soul goes to the Beyond Edited July 18, 2016 by Yata Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Posted July 18, 2016 Report Share Posted July 18, 2016 Hmm, so we know Nightblood makes Investiture unavailable/unusable. And it sounds like that is a one way process. So that suggests more than that it just does not go back to the shard/Adonalsium. Could it be trapped in the Beyond? If none of the shards can interact with the Beyond then that could make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainRyan Posted July 18, 2016 Report Share Posted July 18, 2016 50 minutes ago, Argel said: Hmm, so we know Nightblood makes Investiture unavailable/unusable. And it sounds like that is a one way process. So that suggests more than that it just does not go back to the shard/Adonalsium. Could it be trapped in the Beyond? If none of the shards can interact with the Beyond then that could make sense. I do not think Nightblood makes the Investiture permanently unusable but that is just my personal opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argel Posted July 19, 2016 Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 20 hours ago, CaptainRyan said: I do not think Nightblood makes the Investiture permanently unusable but that is just my personal opinion. And that adds nothing to the conversation and may distract others from the question I asked based on what we do know, including WoBs. Anyone with something constructive want to chime in on my question/theory? 21 hours ago, Argel said: Hmm, so we know Nightblood makes Investiture unavailable/unusable. And it sounds like that is a one way process. So that suggests more than that it just does not go back to the shard/Adonalsium. Could it be trapped in the Beyond? If none of the shards can interact with the Beyond then that could make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainRyan Posted July 19, 2016 Report Share Posted July 19, 2016 1 hour ago, Argel said: And that adds nothing to the conversation and may distract others from the question I asked based on what we do know, including WoBs. Anyone with something constructive want to chime in on my question/theory? 1 hour ago, Argel said: Hmm, so we know Nightblood makes Investiture unavailable/unusable. And it sounds like that is a one way process. So that suggests more than that it just does not go back to the shard/Adonalsium. Could it be trapped in the Beyond? If none of the shards can interact with the Beyond then that could make sense. Hi @Argel, I am a human being with feelings and stuff. I would appreciate it if we treated each other with respect and, preferably, kindness. As to your theory, I think my opinion does add to the narrative - we do not know if Nightblood is permanently corrupting Investiture or only temporarily corrupting it. If it is a temporary corruption then I doubt it would be trapped in the Beyond or anywhere else for that matter. I would imagine that it does return to the Shard but in an unusable form and, until the Shard "recycles" it or something, it remains unusable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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