Lightspine Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 I recently read this post about the "sun" in the Cognitive Realm and it got me thinking about what it could be: As far as I know, it has been proposed to be the cognitive shadow of Adonalsium (as explained in the above link) and the Spiritual Realm (not sure where this got started, but a commenter on the post above mentioned it). For those who don't know this topic, minds in the Cognitive Realm appear as flames, and smaller ones are weaker flames (as shown when Shallan visits Shadesmar to soulcast her ship). The "sun" of Shadesmar has been theorized to be an extremely large mind, but it could also be a massive collection of smaller minds. My theory is that the "sun" is actually the Beyond: the place souls go after they die, viewed from the Cognitive Realm. Upon death, it is known that a person's spirit visits the Cognitive Realm before moving on to the Beyond. That seems strange, unless the path to the Beyond is in the Cognitive Realm (this is also nicely illustrated by the "corridor" of clouds). This would make the "sun" a mind-numbingly huge collection of souls, the spirits of every thinking creature to have ever died, which would manifest as an enormous gathering of flame in the Cognitive Realm. Another thing backing this up is that Harmony can't touch the Beyond. In a released chapter from Jasnah's point of view after faking her death (read it here http://www.tor.com/2014/08/06/stormlight-archive-scene-after-words-of-radiance/) she can't touch the flames around her: they resist her, and block her influence. The Beyond, with it's colossal number of souls, might have enough resistance to block even the power of Harmony. 4
DrakeMarshall he/him Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 Interesting thought... Yes the sun definitely has to be something. One possible alternative... Invested things also glow in the cognitive realm... So rather than being all the souls of the dead, it could be all the "sparks of life" of the living. Just a thought.
Lightspine Posted June 21, 2016 Author Posted June 21, 2016 10 minutes ago, Drake Marshall said: Interesting thought... Yes the sun definitely has to be something. One possible alternative... Invested things also glow in the cognitive realm... So rather than being all the souls of the dead, it could be all the "sparks of life" of the living. Just a thought. I feel that the "sparks of life" would be located with the minds of the people, not way up in the sky. The Cognitive Realm's appearance is based off its perception, after all, and I don't see why people would imagine the energy that gives them life high up there. It wouldn't be a bad location for the afterlife, however. (Forgot to make that point earlier).
DrakeMarshall he/him Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) Hm... Actually, the fact that living things appear as fire might be a product of those sparks of life. In which case the "sun" in shadesmar is either a cognitive manifestation of the afterlife or a cognitive manifestation of some shard-related issues. I feel like the afterlife would be either in the spiritual realm or just plain outside of the three classical realms, but it could be the cognitive understanding of the afterlife. How people view it and such. Edit: Oh also another interesting thing now that I have read that excerpt with Jasnah... Does soulcasting while fully in the cognitive realm seem like an extraordinarily powerful ability to anyone else? A regular person would be utterly helpless... Many types of magic users would probably be helpless to, for that matter. I bet a coppercloud would protect against that kind of attack though. Edited June 21, 2016 by Drake Marshall 1
Sam Script he/him Posted June 21, 2016 Posted June 21, 2016 Cognitive Realm Sun might not be the afterlife. Shallan once saw the Sparks doused after the Physical entities died. If the sun is actually the gathering of dead souls or Great Beyond, these Sparks should've gone up to the sky, not just ceased and gone. However the theory is pretty persuasive. Physical sizes are nothing important in CogRealm, it means that the center should be something meaningful for concepts or perceptions. The original Adonalsium mind is still a good candidate, as a result. 2
Yata he/him Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 It's possible that the "Sun" is the Beyond or a GreatMind... But I think something in SH pushes yet as Sun=Spiritual Realm. Spoiler The Shard's Power seems to travel near the Sun and we know that the main part of Shard's power stay in the Spiritual Realm. And now that I think about: We know that the Shards (or at least Harmony) can't touch the Beyond, I find unlikely for the Beyond to be quite "near" in a Cognitive view. Also for the reason I putted in the Spoiler tag.
SweetLift she/her Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 On 6/22/2016 at 3:28 AM, Yata said: It's possible that the "Sun" is the Beyond or a GreatMind... But I think something in SH pushes yet as Sun=Spiritual Realm. Hide contents The Shard's Power seems to travel near the Sun and we know that the main part of Shard's power stay in the Spiritual Realm. And now that I think about: We know that the Shards (or at least Harmony) can't touch the Beyond, I find unlikely for the Beyond to be quite "near" in a Cognitive view. Also for the reason I putted in the Spoiler tag. There is a lot about this in the Secret Histories, especially in the second part two. Not sure that I can be specific here, but there is more info about the cognitive realm and the spiritual realm.
DrakeMarshall he/him Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) Hm... Yes, the spiritual realm makes sense. I don't remember where, but somebody once metaphorically described the three realms as the spiritual realm being the sun, the cognitive being the sky the sunbeam passes through, and the physical being the ground that gets illuminated, thus tangibly manifesting the other two. So it wouldn't be surprising if the actual sun in the cognitive realm is actually the spiritual realm. Edited June 23, 2016 by Drake Marshall 3
TwelfthOfSnackTime he/him Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) I don't know if this is relevant but don't shadows point towards the 'sun' in shadesmar? I can't remember if I saw this in the books or if this was part of the Jasnah teaser chapter. what that might mean if it turns out as true tells me that it is more likely the Afterlife that Kelsier was being pulled towards before he managed to stay behind. Edited June 23, 2016 by TwelfthOfSnackTime
Lightspine Posted June 24, 2016 Author Posted June 24, 2016 9 hours ago, Drake Marshall said: Hm... Yes, the spiritual realm makes sense. I don't remember where, but somebody once metaphorically described the three realms as the spiritual realm being the sun, the cognitive being the sky the sunbeam passes through, and the physical being the ground that gets illuminated, thus tangibly manifesting the other two. So it wouldn't be surprising if the actual sun in the cognitive realm is actually the spiritual realm. Wouldn't the cognitive realm be visible from the physical too then?
Yata he/him Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 3 hours ago, Lightspine said: Wouldn't the cognitive realm be visible from the physical too then? Well the physical realm is visible in some twisted form from the Cognitive.
Lightspine Posted June 24, 2016 Author Posted June 24, 2016 4 hours ago, Yata said: Well the physical realm is visible in some twisted form from the Cognitive. Not exactly. The spheres in the cognitive realm are the cognitive aspects of the physical objects. They're part of the cognitive realm. Are you talking about something else j don't know of?
Yata he/him Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 7 minutes ago, Lightspine said: Not exactly. The spheres in the cognitive realm are the cognitive aspects of the physical objects. They're part of the cognitive realm. Are you talking about something else j don't know of? Nono you have right, but also the Sun, whatever it is. It's not the Spiritual Realm/Beyond itself... but a poor manifestation of the Spiritual/Beyond/ecc... in the Cognitive. In the same way what you see in the Cognitive Realm is a manifestation of the physical Realm.... You have to push yourself aganist the Realm's border to "see" the real Physical realm from the cognitive (like we saw in the SH).
DrakeMarshall he/him Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 Well it sort of stands to reason that you are most able to see the other two realms from the cognitive realm... The cognitive realm is all about how you see things, after all. Also, SH spoiler: Spoiler On Roshar everything is glass beads, but in Secret History on Scadrial, Kelsier sees a cognitive realm that looks a lot more like the physical realm. It is implied that the people from Sel also observed the cognitive realm in a similar way, so the whole glass bead thing might be unique to Roshar. Or maybe different people simply perceive the cognitive realm in different ways... That is certainly viable. So anyway, the cognitive realm is closely linked to the physical, because people perceive things in the physical realm the most. The spiritual realm is perceived more distantly but is still quite universal, so it's cognitive shadow (a manifestation of how people see the spiritual realm) could well be a sun in the cognitive realm.
Yata he/him Posted June 24, 2016 Posted June 24, 2016 @Drake Marshall to be honest I don't undertand the difference you talked about in the Spoiler tag, but probably this isn't the best place to explore my doubt
DrakeMarshall he/him Posted June 25, 2016 Posted June 25, 2016 (edited) I'll just put this in a spoiler tab just in case, since I'm still talking about SH... Spoiler Well... Shallan and Jasnah both saw everything as glass beads. Kelsier and presumably the other beings in the cognitive realm he interacted with all more or less just saw the physical world with immaterial things overlaying it, not at all like how Shallan or Jasnah had experienced things. Edited June 25, 2016 by Drake Marshall
Magestar he/him Posted June 25, 2016 Posted June 25, 2016 I was pretty certain that the cognitive realms appearance is unique to each planet. Scadrials is 'An Expanse of Mists' because, well, mist. Roshar is glass beads, which has something to do with stormlight, and I think there was speculation that Nalthis' Cognitive realm looks like a mass of shifting colors. There is a WoB somewhere about the Expanse of Mists, and how the cognitive realm looks on other planets, I think. But I am having difiiculty finding it.
ParadoxicalZen he/him Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 for clarification; Scadrial via WoB = Expanse of the Vapours, although apart from Shadesmar we don't know what Roshar's Cognitive Expanse name is (although we can made a few guesses a la Spheres, but yes Magestar is correct I belive; each Shardworld's Cognitive expanse is presumably unique due to Realmatic interactions with each planet's native Investiture and Cognitive Perception. I seem to recall a very recent WoB explaining that a Shard's Investiture is usually seen in the CR's sky when being controlled by a Vessel (see Secret History, as demonstrated with Ruin and possibly Preservation. This also provides a big [but unconfirmed hint] as to Sel's Expanse name) so it is possible for either the Investiture to filter from the Cognitive Sun, which itself could be the portal to the Beyond or the Sun is portal to the Spiritual Realm and from there, people's spirits pass into the Great Beyond 1
Yata he/him Posted June 26, 2016 Posted June 26, 2016 (edited) 6 minutes ago, ParadoxSpren said: I seem to recall a very recent WoB explaining that a Shard's Investiture is usually seen in the CR's sky when being controlled by a Vessel (see Secret History, as demonstrated with Ruin and possibly Preservation. This also provides a big [but unconfirmed hint] as to Sel's Expanse name) so it is possible for either the Investiture to filter from the Cognitive Sun, which itself could be the portal to the Beyond or the Sun is portal to the Spiritual Realm and from there, people's spirits pass into the Great Beyond If the Realms have a "hierarchy" it's possible that the Transition to the Beyond have to cross Physical -> Cognitive -> Spiritual -> Beyond And therefore the Cognitive pull of the Sun may mean both Spiritual Realm or Beyond. Edited June 26, 2016 by Yata 2
thegatorgirl00 she/her Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 I recall a WoB (I can't currently find tit, but I will look later) that says the three realms all overlay each other, so if you travel between realms, you will be in the same "location". I always viewed it as a picture painted in brown. If you could separate the three primary colors, you would end up with three copies of basically the same picture in three different colors. Yet the original picture is still a combination of the three. So I don't think the sun is the Spiritual Realm.
DrakeMarshall he/him Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 On 6/23/2016 at 8:44 PM, Lightspine said: Wouldn't the cognitive realm be visible from the physical too then? Well, on Roshar it sort of is because there are spren But I believe that you would be most able to see the other two realms from within the cognitive realm. This is because the cognitive realm is about, well, perceptions. How things are viewed. Unless there was a realm that nobody ever thought anything about, that never thought anything about itself, and in essence had no real meaning, you should be able to see it in the cognitive realm. There is no such reason to be able to view other realms from the physical realm. The physical realm is... Well... The tangible aspects of things. Many things in other realms are inherently intangible, so the physical realm is probably not as good at viewing other realms as the cognitive realm is. This is evidenced by the fact that people in the cognitive realm have always been able to perceive some altered version of the physical realm, but rarely have purely cognitive things been visible in the physical realm (except for aforementioned spren, which I believe appear by the power of shards). The spiritual realm... Well we don't really know enough about the spiritual realm to say if you would be likely to see the other two realms from it. The spiritual realm is about absolute truth, so technically, given that the other two realms are incontrovertibly existent, one might be able to perceive them on some level within the spiritual realm. But that is just speculation. TL;DR: I don't think that being able to see realms is symmetric. You might be able to see the physical realm from within the cognitive realm better than you could see the cognitive realm from within the physical realm. 1
Farnsworth Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 On 6/26/2016 at 11:59 AM, Yata said: If the Realms have a "hierarchy" it's possible that the Transition to the Beyond have to cross Physical -> Cognitive -> Spiritual -> Beyond And therefore the Cognitive pull of the Sun may mean both Spiritual Realm or Beyond. I might be completely wrong, but I thought that the Beyond was the same as the Spiritual Realm, because (SH spoiler) Spoiler A guy from the Ire says that the spiritual realm is like the origin of a light, the physical realm is the floor upon which the light shines, and the cognitive realm is the space in between. He doesn't mention the beyond. another SH spoiler, Spoiler the sun is described as a point that defies geometry as seen from Scadrial's cognitive realm. So could that be a sun in Roshar's cognitive realm? If that's the case, then the sun is the Spiritual realm and the Beyond.
CaptainRyan he/him Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Figberts said: I might be completely wrong, but I thought that the Beyond was the same as the Spiritual Realm, because (SH spoiler) We know that they are two very separate things because: 1) A Shard's power resides (mostly) in the Spiritual Realm 2) Harmony (and, presumably, other Shards) cannot interact with the "Beyond" It would be weird for Harmony to "live" in the Spiritual Realm and yet be unable to interact with the Spiritual Realm. Edited June 29, 2016 by CaptainRyan
Yata he/him Posted June 29, 2016 Posted June 29, 2016 Like CaptainRyan says.. they are two distinct place: The Beyond is place... well beyond the three Realms. A place where only your mind goes and we don't know quite nothing about. Instead the Spiritual Realm is the place of perfect self, a realm of Concepts and Connection between these Concepts where space and possible time is meaningles... The famous Spirit-Web is exactly your Spiritual-Aspect also called your Soul... a Set of Connection with thing that made you what you are. If you read Secret History (and you whated me some part of it) you have saw: Spoiler When Leras shows to Kelsier a vision, a place of Connections where Kelsier has a shord Illumination about everything... That was a fast look to the Spiritual Realm. Or without going in to the Spoiler Field... When Elend just before die.. Flare the Atium, He see the future and the ultimate Preservation's plan... Because with the Atium he may see for an istant in the Spiritual Realm (it's what the Atium does).
Lightspine Posted June 29, 2016 Author Posted June 29, 2016 34 minutes ago, Yata said: Like CaptainRyan says.. they are two distinct place: The Beyond is place... well beyond the three Realms. A place where only your mind goes and we don't know quite nothing about. Instead the Spiritual Realm is the place of perfect self, a realm of Concepts and Connection between these Concepts where space and possible time is meaningles... The famous Spirit-Web is exactly your Spiritual-Aspect also called your Soul... a Set of Connection with thing that made you what you are. If you read Secret History (and you whated me some part of it) you have saw: Hide contents When Leras shows to Kelsier a vision, a place of Connections where Kelsier has a shord Illumination about everything... That was a fast look to the Spiritual Realm. Or without going in to the Spoiler Field... When Elend just before die.. Flare the Atium, He see the future and the ultimate Preservation's plan... Because with the Atium he may see for an istant in the Spiritual Realm (it's what the Atium does). Wait, doesn't that support my theory? Only the mind goes to the Beyond- upon death all bonds are broken (as happened to Szeth) so it would make sense that the Beyond is only visible from the cognitive realm.
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