Lirin's Identity

[antgrgmn]

So guys, what if Lirin is one of the Heralds? We have seen through Taln that the Heralds can have dark eyes. Also, it seems like most of the Heralds are in hiding somehow.  There is also the bit about Heralds giving information on medical purposes. Can you guys think of anything that can prove this false?

[Rasarr]

Couple of problems with that, though I wouldn't say they are necessarily proofs:

• I think it would undermine Kaladin's arc, the same way the "Kaladin is Dalinar's son" theory would.
• If Lirin was actually a Herald, wouldn't he find a way to deal with Roshone?
• He lacks other Heralds' crazy. Nale is justice-bound, Kalak is paranoiac, Jezrien is drunk, Ash hates her image, and Lirin acts... like a regular, if flawed, human being, really.
• All the divine attributes that would befit a surgeon (Healing, Giving, Caring) are associated with female Heralds, not male ones. In fact, the Herald said to specialize in surgery is Vedel, who's definitely a woman.

[cloudjumper]

6 hours ago, Rasarr said:

Couple of problems with that, though I wouldn't say they are necessarily proofs:

• I think it would undermine Kaladin's arc, the same way the "Kaladin is Dalinar's son" theory would.
• If Lirin was actually a Herald, wouldn't he find a way to deal with Roshone?
• He lacks other Heralds' crazy. Nale is justice-bound, Kalak is paranoiac, Jezrien is drunk, Ash hates her image, and Lirin acts... like a regular, if flawed, human being, really.
• All the divine attributes that would befit a surgeon (Healing, Giving, Caring) are associated with female Heralds, not male ones. In fact, the Herald said to specialize in surgery is Vedel, who's definitely a woman.

waaiit, Jezrien is drunk and Kalak is paranoiac? I haven't read WoK for a long time, so could you remind me where it says that?

[Rasarr]

Just now, cloudjumper said:

waaiit, Jezrien is drunk and Kalak is paranoiac? I haven't read WoK for a long time, so could you remind me where it says that?

It's in WoR, and I admit I was talking from memory. To reach for the source: Jasnah's prologue has Nalan and person-the-Shard-has-almost-certainly-identified-as-Kalak talking. 

Quote

"I'm worried about Ash."
"You're worried about everything."
Jasnah hesitated in the hallway.
"She's getting worse," the voice continued. "We weren't supposed to get worse. Am I getting worse? I think I feel worse."
"Shut up."

So perhaps paranoiac isn't the rightest word. Hypochondriac?

As for Jezrien, the parting words of Nale in Lift interlude. 

Quote

"Praise Yaezir," he said. "Herald of Kings. May he lead in wisdom. If he ever stops drooling."

So... not sure if he's gone senile or is a drunkard indeed. At any rate, both are definitely less adjusted to the world than Lirin.

[Pathfinder]

I believe the main theory right now, (which personally I agree with), is that each of the Heralds are acting as the 10 fools possibly as result of breaking the oathpact. So Nale focuses on punishment instead of justice, Shalash is destroying instead of creating, Jezrien instead of leading, is well....drooling lol and so on. 

[thegatorgirl00]

The Herald's job is pretty much the opposite of Litin's philosophy about two types of people. Maybe one of them decided that because there was peace, fighting in the past had actually been bad. To me that seems like a bit of a stretch, though. 

[Szmit]

On 22.06.2016 at 0:07 AM, thegatorgirl00 said:

The Herald's job is pretty much the opposite of Litin's philosophy about two types of people. Maybe one of them decided that because there was peace, fighting in the past had actually been bad. To me that seems like a bit of a stretch, though. 

Maybe he used to be a eager warrior, and after breaking the oathpact he went full 180?

I don't know, but it is a cool theory.

[Physicist of the Cosmere]

I'm not totally sure if I want to buy this theory, but I'm definitely not walking past the display window yet. If I want to be a scientist worth anyone's time, I have to analyze all of the facts and explore all of the possibilities before coming to a conclusion. I agree that it smells a bit like that "Kaladin is Dalinar's son" theory, and could undermine his character, but I do remember Kaladin talking about how his dad referred to the Heralds in WoK, during one of the first flashbacks, when he goes to heal that girl's hand.

Quote

"Hands," LIrin said, not turning away from gathering his tools.

Kal sighed, hopping off his stool and hurrying over to the basin of warm, soapy water by the door. "Why does it matter?" he wanted to be at work, helping Sani.

"Wisdom of the Heralds," Lirin said absently, repeating a lecture he'd given many times before. "Deathspren and rotspren hate water. It will keep them away."

"Hammie says that's silly," Kal said. "he says deathspren are mighty good at killing folk, so why should they be afraid of a little water?"

"The Heralds were wise beyond our understanding."

Kal grimaced. "But they're demons, father. I heard it off that ardent who came teaching last spring."

"That's the Radiants he spoke of," Lirin said sharply. "You're mixing them again."

Kal sighed.

"The Heralds were sent to teach mankind," Lirin said. "They led us against the Voidbringers after we were cast from heaven. The Radiants were the orders of knights they founded."

"Who were demons."

"Who betrayed us," Lirin said, "once the Heralds left." Lirin raised a finger. "They were not demons, they were just men who had too much power and not enough sense. Either way, you are always to wash your hands. You can see the effect it has on rotspren with your own eyes, even if deathspren cannot be seen."

Kal sighed again, but did as he was told. Lirin walked over to the table again, bearing a tray lined with knives and little glass bottles. His ways were odd -though Lirin made certain that his son didn't mix up the Heralds and the Lost Radiants, Kal had heard his father say that the Voidbringers weren't real. Ridiculous. Who else could be blamed when things went missing in the night, or when a crop got infected with digger-worms?

The others in town thought Lirin spent too much time with books and sick people, and that made him strange. They were uncomfortable around him, and with Kal by association. Kal was only just beginning to realize how painful it could feel to be different.

The Way of Kings, by Brandon Sanderson, page 153. Emphasis mine.

TL;DR - Lirin seemed to care quite a bit about the Heralds, and that his son knew what was accurate about them. Like, he cared a weird amount. He cared about it enough that he earned a reputation for it in Hearthstone that estranged him and his family from the rest of the townspeople.

Being a surgeon, I get the part that deals with medicine, but why the multiple lectures on the subject? I get that Lirin was pretty woke, and he wanted Kaladin to be educated and know his stuff, but if I remember correctly, Lirin wasn't super religious. I don't remember Kaladin mentioning them going to church, or whatever the equivalent is on Roshar. (correct me if I'm wrong, though). Kaladin also mentions how Lirin didn't believe in Voidbringers. What if he knew that they didn't currently exist? Or what if the memories of fighting them each Desolation was so painful that he denied their existence. And it would make sense that he would talk about the Lost Radiants having, "too much power and not enough sense." The remainging nine Heralds were counting on the Knights Radiant to take care of things while they broke their oaths. The only issue I can find here is that, if I were a Herald, I'd be a lot more salty about the Radiants mucking things up.

That being said, I have two questions. Does Lirin mention the Radiants and the Heralds again in The Way of Kings? Second, how many of the ten Radiants are accounted for? We don't know a whole lot about them, and given the torture they kept having to endure, it wouldn't be inconceivable that one of them would want to settle down and have some semblance of a normal life in raising a family and helping others. It could also explain why Lirin was so against Kaladin learning how to fight. Heralds have certainly seen enough of death and war.

Now, I'll say it again, I'm still not completely sold on this theory, but while there's evidence supporting it, I can't ignore it. Maybe I'll have to make another post for arguments against it to see how well it holds up under attempts to poke holes in it. If anyone else wants to give it a go, though, be my guest. I usually get bored of theory threads pretty quickly, but I'm curious to see where this one goes.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Physicist of the Cosmere
Just a bit of re-writing to make it look nicer.

[lady_radiant]

On 6/21/2016 at 4:16 PM, Rasarr said:

Couple of problems with that, though I wouldn't say they are necessarily proofs:

• He lacks other Heralds' crazy. Nale is justice-bound, Kalak is paranoiac, Jezrien is drunk, Ash hates her image, and Lirin acts... like a regular, if flawed, human being, really.

Whoa, have the above been confirmed by Brandon in interview or is it in the books somewhere? I only ask because I haven't read every interview with Brandon and I can't think where it mentions the above information in WoK or WoR but I would very much like to know because I am trying to figure out who are Heralds, worldhoppers, etc. as I continue to read more books and reread previous books. 

EDIT: I have since read more theories above and now understand where in the books the above is mentioned. 

Edited June 28, 2016 by lady_radiant

[Argel]

If Lirin is a herald, maybe he figured out a way (helping others) to manage/treat the insanity. Or maybe he's just scholarly (and a way for Brandon to pass info to the readers). I assume we will find out more about his parents in SA3. If Lirin is a herald, seeing Kaladin as a KR should provoke a strong reaction. Though the destruction of the world can wake people up to what is important. Though probably too late for Khalinar.

[Stormgate]

I JUST THOUGHT OF SOMETHING!

1. Sanderson has RAFO'ed whether or not the Nahel Bond grants longevity. In this case a RAFO might mean yes. 

2. One of the Orders of Knights Radiant did not give up their oaths, but instead went into hiding. As far as I know, we don't know which order it was.

 

What if Lirin is one of the old Knights Radiant?

 

 

[Erklitt]

 

15 hours ago, Stormgate said:

I JUST THOUGHT OF SOMETHING!

1. Sanderson has RAFO'ed whether or not the Nahel Bond grants longevity. In this case a RAFO might mean yes. 

2. One of the Orders of Knights Radiant did not give up their oaths, but instead went into hiding. As far as I know, we don't know which order it was.

 

What if Lirin is one of the old Knights Radiant?

 

 

Though I think your theory unlikely, I would love it to be true. My first thought was: if he is, then probably he's an Edgedancer or Truthwatcher because of the healing. But then I realized that couldn't be it, because in that case he would probably very rarely lose patients. After all he always has a cup full of infused spheres in the surgery.

His family never really lack food, though they make do with cheap fare.  Lirin claims people never stopped giving them gifts, but what if that's not the whole truth? Maybe he can soulcast at a pinch? However, I think I recall that both Ivory and Pattern hint at a past betrayal of their particular spren community, which would mean neither Lightweavers nor Elsecallers where that one faithful order.

But I'll certainly keep this theory in the back of my mind. 

[thegatorgirl00]

On 7/1/2016 at 3:35 PM, Stormgate said:

I JUST THOUGHT OF SOMETHING!

1. Sanderson has RAFO'ed whether or not the Nahel Bond grants longevity. In this case a RAFO might mean yes. 

2. One of the Orders of Knights Radiant did not give up their oaths, but instead went into hiding. As far as I know, we don't know which order it was.

 

What if Lirin is one of the old Knights Radiant?

 

 

I found this WoB that seems to disprove your theory.

Quote

Interview: Sep, 2012

Cosmere Q&A - 17th Shard (Verbatim)

Lightflame

You've confirmed that several Heralds have appeared or been mentioned in the modern (non-prelude, non-vision) parts of The Way of Kings. Have any members of the Knights Radiant (the one from the days of Urithiru, not near-Radiants like Kaladin) appeared in the modern parts of The Way of Kings? And if you have to RAFO me, could you give me a hint about the Heralds?

Brandon Sanderson

I can answer that--no, no Radiants from those days have appeared on screen in TWoK.

Tags

radiants, way of kings, stormlight archive,

The quote does seem to imply that there are some still around though. I wonder if we'll start to see them show back up when they realize the KR are reforming. Or if we've seen one in WoR.

[Asasasyn in White]

Lirin can't be Herald, he is not enough insane.

His identity will be probably exposed in Stormlight Archive book 3.

[tennischamp5]

9 hours ago, Asasasyn in White said:

Lirin can't be Herald, he is not enough insane.

His identity will be probably exposed in Stormlight Archive book 3.

Excuse my ignorance, but I keep seeing around the forum that the heralds are all insane. Is there a reason they all are insane? I think I missed the reason that was so. I get why Talenel Elin is, but why the rest?

[Vyree]

 

13 minutes ago, tennischamp5 said:

Excuse my ignorance, but I keep seeing around the forum that the heralds are all insane. Is there a reason they all are insane? I think I missed the reason that was so. I get why Talenel Elin is, but why the rest?

I assumed that the years of torture between desolations messed them all up a little. And Talenel is obviously more messed up because he was in damnation for millenia longer than the others after they abandoned him and the Oathpact. 

[Erunion]

Most likely is that Lirin is just what he appears to be on the surface - normal. An educated, scholarly surgeon. 

But crazy theorizing is always appreciated

[asterion137]

On 7/1/2016 at 0:35 PM, Stormgate said:

I JUST THOUGHT OF SOMETHING!

1. Sanderson has RAFO'ed whether or not the Nahel Bond grants longevity. In this case a RAFO might mean yes. 

2. One of the Orders of Knights Radiant did not give up their oaths, but instead went into hiding. As far as I know, we don't know which order it was.

 

What if Lirin is one of the old Knights Radiant?

 

 

I think it's pretty likely that it was the skybreakers who stayed. We can eliminate the Windrunners, Stonewards, Lightweavers, Elsecallers, and Edgedancers because the windrunners and stonewards were shown betraying their oaths and the others have spren that talked about  losses to their spren "species". Bondsmiths are another possibility, but there are references in the books to the order of skybreakers existing in modern Roshar.

[Erklitt]

1 hour ago, tennischamp5 said:

Excuse my ignorance, but I keep seeing around the forum that the heralds are all insane. Is there a reason they all are insane? I think I missed the reason that was so. I get why Talenel Elin is, but why the rest?

I only know this second hand and have no source link, but my understanding is that whatever the reason, Brandon has confirmed this as a fact, that's why everyone is so sure.

As for the reason, my guess would be that it's not easy to live with the decision of betraying the oathpact, and they've had to live with it for a few thousand years now. A very long time to stew with an uneasy conscience...

[Eki]

3 hours ago, tennischamp5 said:

Excuse my ignorance, but I keep seeing around the forum that the heralds are all insane. Is there a reason they all are insane? I think I missed the reason that was so. I get why Talenel Elin is, but why the rest?

We don't know why, but the Heralds we know of seem to act out some twisted version of their previous personality (or its opposite). Shalash was the Herald of Beauty, and now she's going around destroying art. Nalan seems to have a very twisted view of the law, without any regard to empathy (to be fair, we don't know how he and other Skybreakers used to be, but regardless I find it twisted). I think there's one quote that indicates that Jezrien (former king) is some kind of moping drunkard, or something.

But yeah, there could be several reasons why they are this way. The torture, the breaking of the Oathpact... Who knows.

[Erklitt]

3 minutes ago, Eki said:

We don't know why, but the Heralds we know of seem to act out some twisted version of their previous personality (or its opposite). Shalash was the Herald of Beauty, and now she's going around destroying art. Nalan seems to have a very twisted view of the law, without any regard to empathy (to be fair, we don't know how he and other Skybreakers used to be, but regardless I find it twisted). I think there's one quote that indicates that Jezrien (former king) is some kind of moping drunkard, or something.

But yeah, there could be several reasons why they are this way. The torture, the breaking of the Oathpact... Who knows.

Quoting from memory, certainly not verbatim but close: Nalan says at some point in an interlude of WoR: "Praise to Yesier! If he ever stops drooling!"

Personally, I wasn't sure Nalan was who he pretended to be until I found out about all the heralds being 'a little gaga nowadays.' And only after that was I able to understand why Braxil's mistress is supposed to be Shalash, why Nalan's / Darknesses companion on 'Kill-Gavilar-night' should be Kelek and there's even a theory that the beggar Szeth encounters on that night might be Jezrien the king of heralds himself.