Alignment of the Shards on Sel

[Jondesu]

First, I agree with the common belief that Devotion would be require to access some magics on Sel, while others require Dominion (and some perhaps a blending of the two). This is true despite the Dor now being a combination of both Shard's magic, probably combined so thoroughly now as to be nigh-inseparable, because the magic systems were created before the splintering and would this follow the rules of one intent or both in Initiation to the various magic systems. However, I think we have the two swapped, due to a mistaken definition of Dominion. 

Brandon has drawn influence from a number of places, but one of the most common is unsurprisingly from the Bible, particularly the Old Testament. The first reference to dominion comes quite early, in Genesis, when Adam and Eve are given dominion over the land, to tend and tame it (after being sent out from the already perfect Garden of Eden). I think this is the definition Brandon drew from, and Elantrians are drawn from those who are inextricably tied to the land and its welfare. Galladon was a farmer, in Duladel, sure, but it's been noted that it's close enough to the Arelon borders, and perhaps the closer parts of Duladel were once part of Arelon. The others all cared deeply about Arelon in one way or another, even Shaor, though in her case it was a selfish interest (I want everything this land and it's people can give me). 

Shu-Dereth, on the other hand, requires fanatical Devotion, to the point of giving ones life for the person above you in the hierarchy, but note also that everyone is devoted to the person above them, no matter how small. Also, the only requirement to have Arelon and Teod (and presumably the other nations they conquered) was that the rulers profess devotion to Jaddeth. This is likely a perversion of Devotion's intent, but would fit nonetheless.

That also means that I believe the Shardpool outside Elantris is Dominion's Shardpool, while Devotion's Shardpool is likely in Fjordell, perhaps even in the Wyrn's cavern (if I remember that detail correctly).

jW

Edited July 12, 2016 by Chaos
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[Yata]

I like your Idea but you putted as a fact something that we don't know. We don't know if the Selish Magics we see now were there before D&D's murdered.

[Jondesu]

8 hours ago, Yata said:

I like your Idea but you putted as a fact something that we don't know. We don't know if the Selish Magics we see now were there before D&D's murdered.

Indeed we don't, but I think it's a reasonable assumption for now. Hopefully at some point we'll find out.

jW

[Yata]

18 hours ago, Jondesu said:

Indeed we don't, but I think it's a reasonable assumption for now. Hopefully at some point we'll find out.

jW

To be honest, I find hard to belive it. The Dor changed everything... It's a tons of Investiture in the Cognitive while whatever Magics were on Sel before worked with another source. Without talking about the Dor as merged D&D's Investiture  while before probably magic worka with DorD's Investiture.
There is another point, on Sel now there is a single Magic System...while so far as we saw with multiple Shards arise multiple Magic Systems.

 

Of course nono of these are proofs...But at least they seem to point elsewhere

[Jondesu]

Devotion and Dominion are very compatible Shards, so it's very possible their interaction didn't result in multiple magic systems, but rather the regionalized system we see. I don't doubt that things changed dramatically, but I suspect that many parts of it were already set and couldn't really change. Yes, the source changed, if we're correct about those Shards power not being based in the Cognitive previously (though that may simply be one of the unique things about Sel and could have been the case prior), but that doesn't mean that AonDor or any of the other magic systems Initiations changed dramatically.

jW

[AndrolGenhald]

I like this theory a lot, but the main thing keeping me from believing it is that the Seons are strongly associated with Elantris, and the Skaze with Fjorden.

[Jondesu]

11 minutes ago, AndrolGenhald said:

I like this theory a lot, but the main thing keeping me from believing it is that the Seons are strongly associated with Elantris, and the Skaze with Fjorden.

I know, but there are two things to keep in mind.  First is that the meanings of the words Devotion and Dominion can shift quite a bit, and it could be argued that the Seons allow their masters Dominion over them, while the Skaze are devoted to their beliefs (I know, a bit loose), but also that the effects and purposes of magic systems often don't tie to the Intents of the Shards, just the Initiation for the magic users.  As splinters, however, I would expect the Seons and Skaze to correspond at least somewhat to the Intents of the Shards they're splinters of.

jW

[Stormgate]

Seons seem devoted to their masters, being the perfect servants without being poor conversation partners. In short, they love their job. On the other hand, Skaze seem to be self-serving.

I don't know much about the Skaze, so I can't give as strong of evidence.

[Doc12]

Isn't the fjordell way more of Dominion than devotion? Cmon! The way to serve your God is to conquer everyone else and make them convert?

[Pathfinder]

On 7/10/2016 at 0:08 AM, Doctor12 said:

Isn't the fjordell way more of Dominion than devotion? Cmon! The way to serve your God is to conquer everyone else and make them convert?

You are so devoted to that religion, that you follow every single tenant, and seek to practice it in every aspect of your life. You must be really devoted to your religion if you are willing to go to war with every other nation on the planet so they can worship the religion you love and believe to be true over all else. Not saying it is fact, but personally I am of the opinion that all forms of power on Sel are a mixture of Devotion and Dominion, and the only reason that dakhor appears more dominiony, is that the skaze which are splinters of dominion have been manipulating the culture. Just like seons, splinters of devotion have been hanging out in Arelon and Teod. The cultures can lend to one or the other in appearance, but that does not mean the magic has to function that way. Also devotion and dominion are two very similar sides of the same coin. Just about any example you give involving dominion, I could paint it in a devotion light and same thing vica versa. 

[Doc12]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

You are so devoted to that religion, that you follow every single tenant, and seek to practice it in every aspect of your life. You must be really devoted to your religion if you are willing to go to war with every other nation on the planet so they can worship the religion you love and believe to be true over all else. Not saying it is fact, but personally I am of the opinion that all forms of power on Sel are a mixture of Devotion and Dominion, and the only reason that dakhor appears more dominiony, is that the skaze which are splinters of dominion have been manipulating the culture. Just like seons, splinters of devotion have been hanging out in Arelon and Teod. The cultures can lend to one or the other in appearance, but that does not mean the magic has to function that way. Also devotion and dominion are two very similar sides of the same coin. Just about any example you give involving dominion, I could paint it in a devotion light and same thing vica versa. 

You make a good point about two sides of a coin. So skaze are splinters of Dominion and seons are of devotion, right?

[ParadoxicalZen]

The aons at the centre of Seons are splinters

Edited July 12, 2016 by ParadoxSpren

[Pathfinder]

16 hours ago, Doctor12 said:

You make a good point about two sides of a coin. So skaze are splinters of Dominion and seons are of devotion, right?

Thank you . Correct, except in the regard of ParadoxSpren below, which I should have clarified. Skaze are of Dominion, Seons are of Devotion, but the aons at their center are the splinters themselves. 

3 hours ago, ParadoxSpren said:

The aons at the centre of Seons are splinters

 

Edited July 12, 2016 by Pathfinder

[CaptainRyan]

On 7/11/2016 at 0:49 PM, Pathfinder said:

You are so devoted to that religion, that you follow every single tenant, and seek to practice it in every aspect of your life. You must be really devoted to your religion if you are willing to go to war with every other nation on the planet so they can worship the religion you love and believe to be true over all else. Not saying it is fact, but personally I am of the opinion that all forms of power on Sel are a mixture of Devotion and Dominion, and the only reason that dakhor appears more dominiony, is that the skaze which are splinters of dominion have been manipulating the culture. Just like seons, splinters of devotion have been hanging out in Arelon and Teod. The cultures can lend to one or the other in appearance, but that does not mean the magic has to function that way. Also devotion and dominion are two very similar sides of the same coin. Just about any example you give involving dominion, I could paint it in a devotion light and same thing vica versa. 

You hate breaking the rules of your religion so much that you follow every single tenant and seek to practice it in every aspect of your life. You must really hate other religions if you are willing to go to war with every other nation on the planet so they can worship the religion you do and believe to be true over all else.

You want to preserve the sanctity of your religion so much that you follow every single tenant and seek to practice it in every aspect of your life. You must really want to preserve your religion if you are willing to...

You want your religion to have autonomy so much that you are willing to...

You could probably spin almost any Intent this same way tbh. I am not saying that makes your conclusion incorrect but I do think that it is a bit of a stretch. The location and actions of the Seons/Skaze seem, to me, to lend more credibility to @Doctor12's interpretation imo. Sanderson does, however, enjoy giving us just enough information to make the wrong guess though so I am definitely open to other conclusions.

[Left]

Maybe a good question for Sanderson would be if the Seons and Skaze embody parts of their shards intents as closely as sentient Spren do. Depending on the answer it could make this threads question easier or a Lot harder to answer. 

[Stormgate]

Really, devotion and dominion can exist in the same relationship, on different sides. Devotion towards something often leads to its dominion over you, or your dominion over it. It's probably no accident that those two Shards specifically went to the same planet.

[one winged jhereg]

Sorry to jump in late here, but...the two shardic (?) intents seem to work very well together to make a cohesive magic system as I see it.  You have to be very devoted to x in order to gain dominion over it's practice.  The two seem very intertwined IMHO. 

 

Edit:  I realize that what I said has been stated before, but i just wanted to put my 2 cents in the conversation.

Edited August 17, 2016 by one winged jhereg