The Diagram, Gavilar and truth SPOILERS

[rjl]

I've seen various threads trying to piece these points together but I don't think I've ever seen my view of Gavilar or the Diagram - I obviously may have missed it somewhere. Anyway despite trying I haven't really managed to draw any final conclusions, I haven't seen any recent topics on this stuff so thought I'd dredge it all back up

 

1. Gavilar
So I don't think Gavilar was on side with the Sons of Honor i.e I don't think he wanted to return the voidbringers in order to return the KRs/Heralds.

 

The key evidence for him being on this side appears to be Eshonai's comment that Gavilar had wanted to return the parshendi's God's which are understood to be the voidspren; I think this was some kind of misunderstanding - because I don't think it would be consistent with other points:

a) Gavilar was seeing visions asumedly the ones now being seen by Dalinar

Gavilar was pro-Way of Kings -> act with Honor etc

 

The visions would not have said revive the voidbringers. A Way of Kings style mindset would tell you that the ends don't justify the means so even if returning the voidbringers would return the heralds it wouldn't be an acceptable thing to do in his view.

 

So what was Gavilar wanting to do? I think he wanted to move towards refounding the KR and doing the things Dalinar is now doing much later obviously he died too soon though there are a couple of unexplained points:

a) What was the black sphere?

Why would Thaidakar have been too late per Gavilar's comment to Szeth he had accomplished something already that the ghostbloods wouldn't like.

 

 

2. The Diagram

So, Taravangian (Mr T) in a fit of brilliance or was it madness wrote a religious book about saving the world or some such but it seems to tell him to do all sorts of crazy things, sowing disorder and chaos/fighting against would be heros etc.

 

My theory is that it started as follows:

i) Gavilar told Mr T that the everstorm was coming, armies of voidbringers etc - how much info he had/gave is obviously a mystery to us

ii) Mr T with whatever info he had set to working out how the world could be saved, with a logical process of:

STEP 1: To survive the storm the world must be united under a great leader
STEP 2: Mr T is the smartest man alive
STEP 3: Based on steps 1&2 Mr T must rule the whole world
STEP 4: Anything that could prevent Mr T ruling the whole world needs to be stopped (e.g. if Dalinar makes a strong united Alethi force/KR how will Mr T take over?)

STEP 5: Sowing chaos/discord around the world and removing exiting leaders will create a void for Mr T to fill

STEP 6: Ruling the whole world, using shardblades, honorblades and fabrials Mr T will stop the everstorm...

 

I feel like this breaks at point 6 as it doesn't feel like they'd have enough power vs what's coming without radiants. The key question I suppose (minor Wheel of time spoilers) is whether Mr T is SA's version of Pedron Niall or whether he's actually right about something is he going to end up helping or only hindering? - a point on which I'm unsure, I've also heard suggested that Odium could have influenced Mr T to make him get some key points horribly wrong, I'm not sure on this at the moment I think we have insufficient evidence but it's certainly possible.

 

 

3. Darkness/Nalan and the Skybreakers
So, what is up with darkness other than being completely mad? I'm unsure at the moment, could it be that actually surgebinding is a bad idea? I note particularly in light of the decoded epigraph from the Diagram about KRs that there seem to be two arguments for this I refer the diagram quote to STEP 4 above and reduce the argument to Darkness' actions only, he's clearly made but what is his driver?

 

 

I don't think he's right as I don't think Honour was mad/lying when he made the visions for instance and I trust Honour over Nale. So why is Nalan killing surgebinders, it could be as others have suggested that he has confused correlation with causality but that seems too silly to me, I actually theorise instead that he is being manipulated by Odium pretty extensively though I have no proof yet other than that he's killing the people who could be the champions of humanity against Odium.

 

Also what of the "Skybreakers" which Helaren joined and which Szeth has apparently been inducted into I think these are a group who are following Darkness around using dead spren shardblades and no surgebinding to do evil which they think to be good due to aforementioned influence of odium on darkness.

 

4. Sons of Honour

I've mentioned them with Gavilar briefly above, were they linked to the envisagers? Is there any truth to their ideas? If Ammaran is a good picture of what they stand for they seem like a group of misguided minor villains but could they be something more? Why did Taln save him, was it just reflex?

 

5. Ghostbloods

How do they fit into all of this? They're opposed to the sons of honour, considering the sons of honour wanted to return the voidbringers does that make them heroes? But they potentially wanted to kill Gavilar and did try to kill Jasnah - what is their angle? Are they opportunists trying to profit from the circumstances rather than working for good or ill particularly? Are they agents of Odium or some 3rd party? Are they actually trying to help? I've seen no real hints at all at this stage.

 

6. How will the world be saved?

The Honour/Dalinar model seems to be: make a fortress, gather as many people as possible, train solders and KRs and fight massive battles will that work? Maybe as a start but that won't beat a shard will it? And also it seems too simple as the ultimate plot, thoughts?

[Blightsong he/him]

Eh, I still think that Gavilar was trying to bring back the Voidbringers. At some point Amaram remarks upon how Gavilar would be proud of what he is doing, and Brandon has specifically said that Gavilar was a part of the Sons of Honor.

While he did like the WoK and was all about Honor, he could've simply had a different interpretation of it than Dalinar. I don't think him being interested in this way of life is enough counter evidence to get past the evidence we have in favor of him trying to bring back the Voidbringers.

[Argel he/him]

Regarding TWoK, from what we have seen so far, it seems like Dalinar is the one who really took it to heart. "Interested in" and "believing in" are also two different things. Edit: It's also worth noting all the secret stuff Gavilar was involved in that Dalinar was not aware of. So Dalinar could very easily misunderstand what Gavilar was interested in.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Argel

[+Wax he/him]

We need a proper tree of theories.  Just reading this makes me think how about we have a theory by character setup so that we can post to it

[Rasarr she/her]

I'd agree that there's something off about Gavilar's endgame being to return Parshendi gods. If we assume his visions were the same as Dalinar's (wasn't that RAFO'd?), then the "let's bring back Voidbringers" looks pretty fishy. Consider the train of thought:
1. True Desolation etc. is coming;
2. This is bad, we need heralds to defend ourselves
3. Heralds return in the time of Desolations
4. We must cause a Desolation
5. Return to point 1. 

I mean, a simple skip reveals this runs on something of a circular logic. Was Gavilar hoping that if he brought back the Parshendi gods, the Desolation wouldn't be a "true" one, and therefore less severe? 

There's also the fact that the Sons of Honor's endgame is not to return the Heralds, but to return the Vorin Theocracy. This is also wonky in terms of Gavilar's involvement, as the Vorin dominance was brought down by Sunmaker, whom, as Coppermind notes, Gavilar revered. Why would Gavilar act against his idol? Or did he lie about this and actually reviled him? Why would he do that, if he could simply act noninvolved in the whole Sunmaker issue?

I suppose it could be that Gavilar wants to cause a mini-Desolation (or what he'd see as a mini-Desolation) to reinstate the Vorin church as per "unite them" order, and bring in the Heralds to ready the people for the upcoming True Desolation in one fell swoop. There are problems with that, too. You'd think that he knew just how destructive the Desolations were - he presumably saw the Nohadon vision Dalinar did, and heard the numbers, but alright, let's say that he thinks that with Heralds on his side and what's left of humanity united in one spot, mankind can survive the True Desolaton. But it's accepted Vorin canon that Heralds appear in time to prepare the people. Does Gavilar think he know when they should arrive better than them? And if he saw the Midnight Essence vision, and thus the information that the Radiants defend people from Desolation - and if he'd want to bring back the Radiants because of that - how will he make this agree with dominance of Vorinism, which teaches evilness of Radiants? 

It's like... the more you think about Gavilar, the less sense he makes. 

On 18.06.2016 at 11:36 PM, axcellence said:

We need a proper tree of theories.  Just reading this makes me think how about we have a theory by character setup so that we can post to it

This is a good idea. Off the top of my head, Coppermind character pages having "theories" sections would be a nice thing to have.

[TwelfthOfSnackTime he/him]

I am starting to understand all those conspiracy nuts that have the walls covered with pictures, newspapers, and notes all connected with strings.

[Argel he/him]

4 hours ago, Rasarr said:

It's like... the more you think about Gavilar, the less sense he makes

Ouch, my head hurts!! But great synopsis.

One possible explanation is he thought he was interacting with the visions like Dalinar did (e.g. visions "telling" Dalinar to trust Sadeas).

The other would be his visions were influenced by Odium. The obvious problem with that is what about Dalinar's visions? One answer is maybe it didn't matter anymore by the time Dalinar started seeing them. Another could be that the location mattered -- the Shattered Plains could be considered more "pure" (e.g. closer to Stormfather) and/or just away from Odium's influence (e.g. no death rattles there). Presumably we will learn more in SA3.

[rjl]

I guess we really don't have enough information yet; maybe with the next book we'll have more to work with. (I wonder how many WoT books were out before theoryland and other such sites got going)

[SamsonSeaBorn]

I feel the Parshundi God's are actually the Heralds who saved this group of the listeners who objected to odium and took on dull form to avoid the void spren and their effects. I say this because in a few of the opening songs of the listeners before the chapters begin I'm sure one describes the Heralds. (I'll find the quote soon) and also when Kaladin finds the dagger with the pictures of the Heralds on the Parshundi corpse it would explain why they had it. Now to be fair their old gods probably were of Odium but like I said these particular listeners hid themselves in a remote place probably with the Heralds help possibly why Natanatan was shattered. 

[Blackhoof]

I think it unlikely that Gavilar had the visions like Dalinar, if just because surely Navani would know her husband collapsed, raving every highstorm.

 

 

That said, if he concealed it in some way... Amaram likely knew about them, hence his reaction to Dalinar's visions.

[Rasarr she/her]

7 hours ago, Blackhoof said:

I think it unlikely that Gavilar had the visions like Dalinar, if just because surely Navani would know her husband collapsed, raving every highstorm.

Navani did note that she and Gavilar had grown very much apart by the time the Parshendi were encountered. It could be that they were pretty much sleeping in separate bedrooms by the time the ravings started.

Still, that RAFO on Gavilar's visions is pretty suspicious (I'm pretty sure it was a RAFO, can anyone check Theoryland? I can't access it). Then again, Taravangian does mention "Unite them" as part of the vision, and that's a mainstay in Danilar's vlogs from Almighty. If the visions are Odium-influenced, as Argel suggests, then why would Odium want Gavilar to unite mankind? Is it as tricky as to know that SoH and Diagrammists will make everything worse rather than better?  

...I feel like I'm running in circles. Do you think a question "did Gavilar rave and act possessed like Dalinar did when he had is visions" would prompt a RAFO?

[SweetLift she/her]

There is a lot happening in this thread.

Skybreakers and Darkness - In the Lift interlude, she asks Darkness why her, why is he going to kill her, there are so many other bad people doing bad things. He says to her, what she is becoming will bring about bad things. He maybe is mad, I think that he believes he is helping.  Could more people surgebinding bring about a desolation faster, or are more people able to surgebind because a desolation is coming?

Parshendi - I find it interesting that at the Tower, when Kalidin begins surgebinding they recognize what he is doing.  And they are afraid.

Visions - There was a death rattle recorded by a man that was stated to have visions during high storms.  I cannot remember the death rattle, but is this evidence that perhaps other people all over Roshar may be having visions? And if so are they different for each person? I found it interesting that Dalinar could interact in the vision, he fought off the Midnight Essence and spoke with the radiant before the avatar began speaking. It makes me wonder how these visions are formed. I guess i will have to do more searching to see if i have missed this somewhere.  It does make me think that Gavilar and Dalinar could have experienced different visions.  Maybe they are somehow tied to a geographical location? or a place that a person has visited...

Sons of Honor  and Gavlilar - the way that Tarivangian speaks of Gavliar makes me think that at some point Gavliar may have changed his mind about his loyalties, or playing on more than one team...

Ghostbloods - a couple world hoppers, This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules are they doing? I need read again and pay more attention to the meetings with these people

 Is it possible the world will not be saved? Is it part of a bigger Cosmere plot....not saying that I believe that, but just a random thought

[Blackhoof]

Well one of the reasons that Eshonai allows stormform to be tested is because she sees the humans use Surgebindings.

Perhaps other desolations were triggered in similar ways?

 

But, if that were the case, why is Nalan not hunting down 'binders on the Shattered Plains where they could come into contact with the Parshendi? Surely he knows what they are, or could be? Why not try to wipe out the Parshmen, or the Parshendi, if he is so set on preventing another desolation?

His actions and motives confuse me.

[Rasarr she/her]

I admit, when it comes to Nale, I'm in the "he's simply insane" camp. Sometimes a duck is just a duck, and wouldn't that be a twist, coming from Brandon?

[Eccentric Hero he/him]

11 hours ago, Rasarr said:

Danilar's vlogs from Almighty

This is a great term.

 

37 minutes ago, Rasarr said:

I admit, when it comes to Nale, I'm in the "he's simply insane" camp. Sometimes a duck is just a duck, and wouldn't that be a twist, coming from Brandon?

There is a theory that the heralds, after breaking the oathpacts, start acting like the ten fools.

[SamsonSeaBorn]

On 6/20/2016 at 8:46 PM, Blackhoof said:

I think it unlikely that Gavilar had the visions like Dalinar, if just because surely Navani would know her husband collapsed, raving every highstorm.

 

 

That said, if he concealed it in some way... Amaram likely knew about them, hence his reaction to Dalinar's visions.

Actually Gavalar did have the visions, I say this because at the end of WoR Graves is talking to Moash about the merchants who are going to scavenge the abandoned war camps saying they deserve what's coming and Moash asks what's coming and Graves responds with everstorms and says they only know the term from Gavalars visions.

Edited June 22, 2016 by SamsonSeaBorn
I put WoK and ment WoR

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

22 hours ago, Rasarr said:

Still, that RAFO on Gavilar's visions is pretty suspicious (I'm pretty sure it was a RAFO, can anyone check Theoryland? I can't access it). Then again, Taravangian does mention "Unite them" as part of the vision, and that's a mainstay in Danilar's vlogs from Almighty. If the visions are Odium-influenced, as Argel suggests, then why would Odium want Gavilar to unite mankind? Is it as tricky as to know that SoH and Diagrammists will make everything worse rather than better?  

What if Odium knows that Gavilars way of uniting will help him in the long run. He might have subtly affected Gavilars visions so that Gavilar thought the work of the Sons of Honor would be what could unite the people. But their work are instead something that will weaken humanity.

Another theory could be that Odium actually wants humanity to unite. It might be some advanced scheme of his.

 

[Argel he/him]

6 hours ago, Axies the Survivor said:

But their work are instead something that will weaken humanity

That fits with the idea that Odium realized he can let the humans in-effect wipe themselves out, and maybe he's just nudging things along to make it happen sooner than later.

[+hwiles]

On 6/17/2016 at 7:41 PM, rjl said:

.......................................................................................................................

a) Gavilar was seeing visions asumedly the ones now being seen by Dalinar

.......................................................................................................................

I feel like we can probably rule out the idea that Gavilar saw the same visions as Dalinar.  I seem to recall that at some point Dalinar mentions that, in his experience, he can learn more from the visions if he plays along with them and acts, to the best of his abilities, in a manner consistent with the character he's playing in them.  In my mind, this casts serious doubt on the visions being scripted, as the people in them react to and interact with Dalinar dynamically, and are weirded out by him when he doesn't respond the way they expect.  In this way, Gavilar's visions could be, at most, very similar to Dalinar's, but definitely not identical.

Do we know for sure that when Dalinar has a vision he isn't literally possessing someone from the past (IE: his mind is somehow traveling back in time and controlling someone)?  That's how the scenes read to me, and if that's the case, it would make sense that each person experiences different visions.  Gavilar seems to have been involved in a lot of weird stuff, it wouldn't surprise me if he saw wildly different visions and/or the visions came from another source (IE: Odium or the Old Magic).

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

31 minutes ago, Argel said:

That fits with the idea that Odium realized he can let the humans in-effect wipe themselves out, and maybe he's just nudging things along to make it happen sooner than later.

He is Hate after all. Maybe that is what he is trying to spread among all humans. Hate. And then, because of the fact that they hate eachother, they kill eachother.

[SweetLift she/her]

20 hours ago, Blackhoof said:

Well one of the reasons that Eshonai allows stormform to be tested is because she sees the humans use Surgebindings.

Perhaps other desolations were triggered in similar ways?

 

But, if that were the case, why is Nalan not hunting down 'binders on the Shattered Plains where they could come into contact with the Parshendi? Surely he knows what they are, or could be? Why not try to wipe out the Parshmen, or the Parshendi, if he is so set on preventing another desolation?

His actions and motives confuse me.

And HOW did he get Nightblood!? 

[SweetLift she/her]

2 hours ago, hwiles said:

I feel like we can probably rule out the idea that Gavilar saw the same visions as Dalinar.  I seem to recall that at some point Dalinar mentions that, in his experience, he can learn more from the visions if he plays along with them and acts, to the best of his abilities, in a manner consistent with the character he's playing in them.  In my mind, this casts serious doubt on the visions being scripted, as the people in them react to and interact with Dalinar dynamically, and are weirded out by him when he doesn't respond the way they expect.  In this way, Gavilar's visions could be, at most, very similar to Dalinar's, but definitely not identical.

Do we know for sure that when Dalinar has a vision he isn't literally possessing someone from the past (IE: his mind is somehow traveling back in time and controlling someone)?  That's how the scenes read to me, and if that's the case, it would make sense that each person experiences different visions.  Gavilar seems to have been involved in a lot of weird stuff, it wouldn't surprise me if he saw wildly different visions and/or the visions came from another source (IE: Odium or the Old Magic).

I am really stuck on the visions right now. Are they the same vision? is it a broadcast (someone else used that term and I like it) that certain people (maybe Bond Smiths) can access?  But i am with you, the way the people interact with him and are confused by Dalinar's behavior is strange. It seems like it is possible something else is going on in these visions...I don't know what 

[SamsonSeaBorn]

4 hours ago, Axies the Survivor said:

He is Hate after all. Maybe that is what he is trying to spread among all humans. Hate. And then, because of the fact that they hate eachother, they kill eachother.

o·di·um

noun

1. general or widespread hatred or disgust directed toward someone as a result of their actions.  

Going off the definition I'd say that killing is only a reaction to what odium wants, How about making extreme xebophobes out of anything he comes in contact with, Mark humans hate humans sure sounds good but also make humans hate parshmen also vice versa oh but wait what about those traitorous listeners who disobeyed odium abd fled let's infiltrate them and spread more hate, but wait they disobeyed eshoni so now you make Parshundi hate Parshundi. 

 

Also side note, in BoM in one of the news paper clips there's a oddly familiar monster described. Anyone wanna bet that's a Parshundi (my guess is relayn sp) 

[SamsonSeaBorn]

Remember odium isn't malice though that splinter is most definitely subservient to him.

[Argel he/him]

Someone in one of these threads suggested that the visions are similar to Assassin's Creed animus. That would allow for some interaction, etc. but still not actually alter the past.